Getting out the most of your comlink.
I need some input, and ideas from all of you fine folks out there – What can we do with our commlinks and how can we maximize their use?
I have a few ideas.
Turning off the wireless connection
Why use hidden mode at all when you do not use it for running – just turn of the wireless connection, what Lonestar cannot pick up they cannot see.
Limited Signal Strength
Is it possible to change the signal setting to a lower setting than the standard for your particular commlink? Is the antenna strength flexible (that is, can I lower it from 5 to 1 with a mental command?)
Using another Commlink as a router
Have at least two commlinks when you are a hacker, one as a firewall loaded with agents and another for hacking through that commlink.
Multiple hidden commlink
Use the above example and have both in hidden mode, makes it a pain in the posterior to find.
Drone commlink
Might be more useful than one thinks, add a rigger interface to a commlink and load up a pilot program plus a virtual person program and you have your own virtual secretary, add some autosofts like Etiquette and even Negotiations and you are ready to go.
Improved Senses
Add Simrigs to your Drone Commlinks and have them tap information from your own senses and act as secondary radars and add a Clearsight program to them. They will use your own senses to “see” through for their perception tests (Some kind of Threat Assessment program might be nessecary.)
Remote Controlled Skillwires (MIGHT be doable)
Subscribe your skillwires and all necessary senseware to your Drone Commlink and give it order to “shoot <target>” and it will use the skillwires for that effect (effect might be limited due to skillwire rating) or tell it to run away, dodge etc as long as the correct Activesoft is available.
Electronic Warfare System
Tell your Drones and/or Commlink Drones to flood the area with electronic warfare emissions when you go into combat (System 4 + Program 5= 9D6 for Electronic Warfare)
3 in 1 Hackers
Hack into a system while you are guarded by your own two guard-dog commlinks who you have ordered to defend you, spoof your commtrail or perhaps flood the hostile OS with agents. Aiding you in combat is also quite fun as you can gang up on any IC or other nuisance that might pop up, and unlike agents they don’t take up any Program slots.
OS Bombing
This is quite an interesting tactic, and it should work. If you manage to hack into a system, or even get administrator rights you can upload agents that have been encrypted (so that they cant be subverted) and load them into the hosts OS using up their own Response and basically flood them with your own agents that you in turn have loaded with Databombs, attack/defense programs or any other function you’d like.
Once you have added your saboteurs you can go about your business as the system is fighting a civil war against itself as your agents bogs down the system by erasing, databombing, editing and making one hell of a mess inside the system – or just renaming every file in the entire system.
Might be quite a diversion – but remember to use your commlink drones as agent carriers while you load up on hacking programs for the real job.
Direct Diversion
Tell your Comm’s to hack another part of the system, and be blatant about it as YOU hack the IMPORTANT part of the system.
Programming Assistance
For the standard programming that uses basic code and not your own personal signature they could program night and day, at least for a limited degree so you could save some time.
A more “active” firewall.
Drone Commlinks would be more of a hacker than an agent and therefore be more effective in responding to hacking attempts by uploading more agents and attacking the intruder at the same time with its IC and Agents simultaneously.
Well? Come on people, any more tactics?
Full Version: Getting the most out of our commlinks
Ooh, I like.
You don't even need a Rigger Interface to replace System with Pilot.
Skillwires, on the other hand only provide Skills - though Active ones, it is still the subject who has to use them.
Skillwires, on the other hand only provide Skills - though Active ones, it is still the subject who has to use them.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| You don't even need a Rigger Interface to replace System with Pilot. Skillwires, on the other hand only provide Skills - though Active ones, it is still the subject who has to use them. |
Hmm, so all I do us upload a pilot program and no rigger interface? Still, it does say that a rigger interface is what gives drones a pilot rating, replacing a system with a pilot does not seem to give them decision making abilities.
The skillwires might be a bit trickier, and the way a drone would be able to use them would be hard, and very limited.
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| Hmm, so all I do us upload a pilot program and no rigger interface? |
Indeed - see p. 213-214.
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| The skillwires might be a bit trickier, and the way a drone would be able to use them would be hard, and very limited. |
A Pilot Program running on Skillwires could use linked Devices to decide which Skills suit the situation best... thats about it.
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| Limited Signal Strength Is it possible to change the signal setting to a lower setting than the standard for your particular commlink? Is the antenna strength flexible (that is, can I lower it from 5 to 1 with a mental command?) |
While not specifically called out, I would imagine this would be covered under the "change linked device mode" free action.
| QUOTE |
| Improved Senses Add Simrigs to your Drone Commlinks and have them tap information from your own senses and act as secondary radars and add a Clearsight program to them. They will use your own senses to “see” through for their perception tests (Some kind of Threat Assessment program might be nessecary.) |
This could be cool, but I can also picture moments like when, on the early levels in the first Halo, Cortana tells you things like "This cave is not a natural formation. Someone built it, so it must lead somewhere." Thank you Miss State-the-Obvious AI, I hadn't noticed the metal walls.
Adding pilot program to your commlink in order to have it make independant actions is easier than ever. It's called AN AGENT and you can even have multiples of them running on the same node!
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| Adding pilot program to your commlink in order to have it make independant actions is easier than ever. It's called AN AGENT and you can even have multiples of them running on the same node! |
Yes, I know I covered that topic before but unlike drones an agent is somewhat more limited and BEING the system and not taking up any response gives a drone more flexibility, and the fact that it can make decisions on the fly and join agent programs or even upload NEW agent programs, soemthing a normal agent is a bit more limited in. An agent can only use the programs you have given it, a drone have your entire program arsenal to choose from and can activate new agnts on the fly AS IT SEE FIT and aid you when hacking by not taking up any response slots.
I guess its more or less about taste, I want a drone commlink that talks back to me.
Think about it, you have your commlink loaded with programs for your hacking assault and now you need agents, agents that take up your memory space, not good, add a second, or even third commlink and invite them inside the node you just opened up and have them loaded with their own programs and a few agents each.
| QUOTE (RunnerPaul) | ||
This could be cool, but I can also picture moments like when, on the early levels in the first Halo, Cortana tells you things like "This cave is not a natural formation. Someone built it, so it must lead somewhere." Thank you Miss State-the-Obvious AI, I hadn't noticed the metal walls. |
I believe that one would either need some kind of reconition program or a smart pilot, I'd say that a rating 4 pilot program wouldn't be stupid, not after 10+ years of drone research and the odd AI popping up now and then.
Still, for threat recognition I'd say that some kind of program might be required.
I understand the taste factor on the drone-commlink - a hacking buddy, similar to Motoko's AIs in GitS:ManMachine Interface, or R2D2 for that matter. I think as a GM I'd rule double cost for the Pilot program in a 'link, though - one Pilot for controlling the systems (replaces OS/System rating) and one for the agent functionality. Small price to pay for the extra commlink doing things on its own, I think. I'd probably also institute some slight Response slowdown if your 'link is constantly giving the other one orders, etcetera - they'd work best apart, but the drone 'link needs to be supervised to make sure it interprets your orders correctly. Very interesting tactical situation.
Pilot is already designed for that, no need for doubling costs. 
The problem with a drone commlink is that the rigger black box is likely as big as the commlink itself. Considering the cost you could probably just get away with buying two commlinks and running several Agents on the second one.
Now, building a commlink into one of those small drones so you have your own little bug-sized hackerbot, that's cool.
I wonder how hard it would be to build a little articulated arm into it so you could break into hardwired data systems remotely with this...
Now, building a commlink into one of those small drones so you have your own little bug-sized hackerbot, that's cool.
I wonder how hard it would be to build a little articulated arm into it so you could break into hardwired data systems remotely with this...
Now you've got me thinking about building a whole bank of commlinks into a cyberarm for purposes of running a self-contained agent army.
OK, see, the Drone pilot program IS an agent. Look it up in the matrix section. It's the same program. When you install it on a drone, it can control the drone, and use any drone activesofts you give it. If you load it on a commlink, it's an agent, and follows those rules. Agents are how you get hacking buddies. Trying to "Rig your commlink" is neither possible by the rules, nor necessary to acheive your concept. The only reasons to do it is because of all those "advantages" you listed, which are really Non-canon ways of bypassing the limitations of agents.
Also, an agent can take an upload/download action to switch their own program load, so is isn't limited to the programs you give it.
Also, an agent can take an upload/download action to switch their own program load, so is isn't limited to the programs you give it.
So if I wanted to MCT FlySpy drone that's been loaded up with all sorts of autosofts to turn it into a remote hacking drone, and then issue an instruction set to it that says that instead of it's usual mode of operation of flying into a area and using its wifi link to hack into things, it's going to be crazy-glued and hardwired to a commlink which will be the new launching points for its attacks, I can't do that because it's "non-canon" and "unfairly bypasing limits of agent programs loaded on commlinks"?
| QUOTE (RunnerPaul) |
| So if I wanted to MCT FlySpy drone that's been loaded up with all sorts of autosofts to turn it into a remote hacking drone, and then issue an instruction set to it that says that instead of it's usual mode of operation of flying into a area and using its wifi link to hack into things, it's going to be crazy-glued and hardwired to a commlink which will be the new launching points for its attacks, I can't do that because it's "non-canon" and "unfairly bypasing limits of agent programs loaded on commlinks"? |
I don't think that bypasses anything... hackers could still hack/trace/detect/stop the FlySpy drone as easily as the commlink it's attached to.
Now, if you disabled that drone's wireless connection, connected to him directly (wires or skinlink) then I don't see any reason why you couldn't command it to issue commands to the commlink... just like any user with a keyboard and mouse... but I don't think it is able to use the commlink to "go VR" and follow you around. For that, you want an Agent program.
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Nov 22 2005, 07:02 PM) |
| OK, see, the Drone pilot program IS an agent. Look it up in the matrix section. It's the same program. When you install it on a drone, it can control the drone, and use any drone activesofts you give it. If you load it on a commlink, it's an agent, and follows those rules. |
I understand what you mean but it also say that a PILOT program unlike an AGENT program IS the OS of a device, it replaces system. The difference is that an agent is “loaded into your persona like other programs” (page 227) and are “semi-autonomous programs” thus taking up response from your commlink.
Thus, agents are a PROGRAM.
Pilot programs on the other hand “represents a special type of OS – a SYSTEM with specialized functions featuring semi-autonomous decision-making algorithms.” (Page 213).
Thus pilot programs are the OS of a device.
If you install the pilot as the OS of a commlink it can control agents and would therefore become a hacker in its own right, albeit somewhat more limited in skill and imagination from a real hacker.
As I said, I understand what you mean but they are actually two very different programs, one is controlled by the OS and the other IS the OS. They have bundled them under the same cost as IC/Agents/Pilots as they more or less follow the same guidelines – but Pilot programs are even more specialized than both IC and Agent.
EDIT: For more information check page 214: "Pilot is used in place of System for vehicles, drones, and agents, but otherwise has the same function as System."
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| If you install the pilot as the OS of a commlink it can control agents and would therefore become a hacker in its own right, albeit somewhat more limited in skill and imagination from a real hacker. |
It still isn't the same as the hacker, because, as you said, it IS the system. That means, if the system is compromised, so to, is this hacker. That actually puts you in a very dangerous position.
Lets say you program your little drone hacker to use some "on board" agents to scour the matrix for a particular bit of paydata. The target corp detects teh attack, traces it back to your lamo rating 4 DINAB program, and counter-hacks your system.
Later that day, you check in on the progress, and your drone reports that it has finished, and that everythign has completed successfully. You check out the file, and BOOM, databomb. Or worse, your GM whips out the old virus/worm rules from SR3 and adapts them.
Or it just reports comepletely faulty information... or the intruders made it give up the GPS coordinates fo your commlink and you hear a knocking at the door.Although I would argue that a pilot-OS can and should be able to use the command program to kick around agents that are in the matrix (to the extend that a user with a mouse and keyboard can, at least) the idea of having your hacker vulnerable to being hacked is sort of scarey.
A real life hacker, if his system is compromised, can always "pull the plug" or at the very least, work to minimize damages, and/or warn people if anything goes wrong... a DINAB pilot that gets hacked is essentially mind-controlled until the owner digs around in the system and detects that somethign is up.
The same problem exists with Agents send to mine data, too.
| QUOTE (BlackHat) | ||
It still isn't the same as the hacker, because, as you said, it IS the system. That means, if the system is compromised, so to, is this hacker. That actually puts you in a very dangerous position. |
I agree, but unlike a normal system you have an OS that can respond in any way it choose to because it would be more aware of an intrusion and can respond in a more flexible manner if it finds out. A normal system would count on its Firewall and/or IC to stop the attacker and do nothing (unless the hacker was actively present and aware of the problem) while a pilot program could continuously upload agents to distract the attacker while tracing it back to its source (as with the hacker, if it is aware of a security breach).
The problem with a hacking attack would be that it can happen to anyone, hacker or pilot since a good enough hacker who manages a good exploit roll might gain administrator rights and use your own tricks against you.
| QUOTE (The Jopp) | ||
I understand what you mean but it also say that a PILOT program unlike an AGENT program IS the OS of a device, it replaces system. The difference is that an agent is “loaded into your persona like other programs” (page 227) and are “semi-autonomous programs” thus taking up response from your commlink. Thus, agents are a PROGRAM. Pilot programs on the other hand “represents a special type of OS – a SYSTEM with specialized functions featuring semi-autonomous decision-making algorithms.” (Page 213). Thus pilot programs are the OS of a device. If you install the pilot as the OS of a commlink it can control agents and would therefore become a hacker in its own right, albeit somewhat more limited in skill and imagination from a real hacker. As I said, I understand what you mean but they are actually two very different programs, one is controlled by the OS and the other IS the OS. They have bundled them under the same cost as IC/Agents/Pilots as they more or less follow the same guidelines – but Pilot programs are even more specialized than both IC and Agent. EDIT: For more information check page 214: "Pilot is used in place of System for vehicles, drones, and agents, but otherwise has the same function as System." |
The reason that the pilot rating of the drone acts as it's system rating and all that is because a drone's dog brain computer is NOT a commlink. The "Pilot is system" thing is a simplification for game purposes.
The more specific thing going on it this: A drone has a specialized processor with a specialized agent running on a specialized OS. The OS is the same rating as sthe agent because it has to be to run the agent, and having it be higher is a waste.
So hooking up a Commlink to a drones dogbrain is either one of two things: either you REPLACE the limited processor with a full commlink, in which case you would use the Agent normally, or you have slaved the commink to the limited procesor, so that the Agent is giving orders to the other commlink. Even if you accept that you can do this (And I don't, i feel that the best youcould do is have an agent from one commlink use command to order around agents from other commlinks), you don't need a drone to do it, you can have agents on a normal commlink perform the same actions.
Well, we at least agree to disagree.
I would actually like a FAQ on this because the possibilities are interesting. One important aspect to remember in putting a pilot OS inside a Commlink is that have to pay a LOT for a pilot program compared to a regular operating system.
Out of a game balance perspective I can see some extreme situations but it is no different from a Rigger using several drones that he commands through one or even two commlinks.
Or even using a drone as a master control to a small army of drones. Besides, they are not überhackers on their lonesome but they can be effective allies and be master control for agents and such since they won't take up any response on the commlink.
My point is that i cannot actually find any information about the points you are bringing up in saying that it is an OS run on a special processor. It is a special OS yes, and that is represented by a hefty price tag.
And please, don't call it an AGENT when it is a PILOT, there is a difference, it's like calling a pilot program an IC which is another ball of wax compared to the other two parts as well.
----
The price tag also makes them as expensive as drones.
Cheapo drone with improved Response to 4 and increased signal to 4 costs roughly 5000-6000 and with a pilot program that you have at rating 4 for 10K, an autosoft for improved flying 2K and a defense autosoft 2K, add EW autosoft for 2K.
Total pricetag for Programs= 16K
Total Pricetag for Drone= 6K
Now, the pricetag for programs will DROP for each drone you add since you copy it to each drone you own. Let's try this with a cyber commlink, the same signal & response.
Transys Avalon: 5K (same rating as our drone)
Rating 5 EW program: 2500K (Since your hacker have a better commlink for himself)
Pilot Program OS: 10K
Cyber commlink Modification: 2K
Total Cost for each commlink: 7K
Program Cost: 10K
You can always pay a little more to improve your commlinks response rating if you want.
Now, the prices are almost the same, but unlike the drones you are not mobile but you can hide your commlinks a little better - same effect but different purposes.
Now, all you need is a crapload of expensive hacking/computer programs and do stuff.
Yea, one could almost get LEGIONS of hacker drones that functions like agent carriers but the same thing can be made with mobile drones that can go inside shielded buildings and hack it from the inside or a rigger with firepower support - it's more of a win situation for Riggers since they can be more mobile with their drones.
Oops, didn't mean to rant.
I would actually like a FAQ on this because the possibilities are interesting. One important aspect to remember in putting a pilot OS inside a Commlink is that have to pay a LOT for a pilot program compared to a regular operating system.
Out of a game balance perspective I can see some extreme situations but it is no different from a Rigger using several drones that he commands through one or even two commlinks.
Or even using a drone as a master control to a small army of drones. Besides, they are not überhackers on their lonesome but they can be effective allies and be master control for agents and such since they won't take up any response on the commlink.
My point is that i cannot actually find any information about the points you are bringing up in saying that it is an OS run on a special processor. It is a special OS yes, and that is represented by a hefty price tag.
And please, don't call it an AGENT when it is a PILOT, there is a difference, it's like calling a pilot program an IC which is another ball of wax compared to the other two parts as well.
----
The price tag also makes them as expensive as drones.
Cheapo drone with improved Response to 4 and increased signal to 4 costs roughly 5000-6000 and with a pilot program that you have at rating 4 for 10K, an autosoft for improved flying 2K and a defense autosoft 2K, add EW autosoft for 2K.
Total pricetag for Programs= 16K
Total Pricetag for Drone= 6K
Now, the pricetag for programs will DROP for each drone you add since you copy it to each drone you own. Let's try this with a cyber commlink, the same signal & response.
Transys Avalon: 5K (same rating as our drone)
Rating 5 EW program: 2500K (Since your hacker have a better commlink for himself)
Pilot Program OS: 10K
Cyber commlink Modification: 2K
Total Cost for each commlink: 7K
Program Cost: 10K
You can always pay a little more to improve your commlinks response rating if you want.
Now, the prices are almost the same, but unlike the drones you are not mobile but you can hide your commlinks a little better - same effect but different purposes.
Now, all you need is a crapload of expensive hacking/computer programs and do stuff.
Yea, one could almost get LEGIONS of hacker drones that functions like agent carriers but the same thing can be made with mobile drones that can go inside shielded buildings and hack it from the inside or a rigger with firepower support - it's more of a win situation for Riggers since they can be more mobile with their drones.
Oops, didn't mean to rant.
After a long talk with my GM and a friend I realized that a clarification on Pilot Programs are really, really needed.
As far as it seems one only need 1 program, for all vehicles you own, that sounds a bit strange since an aircraft control program functions very differently from an automobile control program.
So what’s your opinion? A rigger would get away very, very cheaply if he only needed 1 rating 3 program for 3K for his 20 drones…
It does seem reasonable that a pilot program would be bought with an encoded skill like “Groundcraft” or “Aircraft” or “Anthroform” but it doesn’t really SAY it in the book, only when it comes to complementary programs like maneuvering autosoft.
With this said one MIGHT be able to aquire a pilot program for almost anything except for the fact that it says on page 238 in SR4 that almost any kind of VEHICLE might serve as a drone, this also implicates that pilot programs are exclusively designed for vehicles, and should in that case be tailormade for a specific kind of vehicle, or vehicle group (it sounds a bit extreme if one would have to buy a specific program for a Subcompact and another for a Limousine.)
I DO wonder if it would be possible to get a Pilot Program for a Commlink but according to the rules they don’t seem to be made for controlling commlinks, not as OS in any case but more like independent OS (Agents) loaded on the commlinks OS.
Still, it could be incredible gamebreaking with 1 hacker having a small army of extra commlinks taking orders from him, and then using several agents – or joe shmoe samurai using a drone hacker for so that he won’t need to hire that hot hacker…
Crap, I’m ranting.
Ok, found something interesting...
------------------------------------------------------------------
Rigging Security Systems
It is possible for the devices in a security
system (cameras, maglocked doors, tripwires,
fi xed gun-drones, and other sensors and secmeasures)
to be rigger-adapted and subscribed
to a central node so that a rigger can “jump
into” the entire security system.
------------------------------------------------------------------
According to page 239 “Rigging Security Systems” it states (see above) that one can rigger adapt almost anything (Maglocks, Doors, Tripwires). Interesting, especially since it says on page 238 “Drones”
------------------------------------------------------------------
The key difference that sets drones apart from ordinary vehicles is the rigger
adaptation that provides drones with a Pilot program,
------------------------------------------------------------------
Which basically means that as long as one pays for a rigger adaption on almost ANY piece of electronic equipment one could equip it with a Pilot program for that device?
A Camera pilot program loaded with extra sensors and clearsight would really make runners even more paranoid since they could function autonomously from the security hacker and be a cheaper alternative for companies on a budget (camera+rating 3 pilot+clearsight+link to Lonestar)
As far as it seems one only need 1 program, for all vehicles you own, that sounds a bit strange since an aircraft control program functions very differently from an automobile control program.
So what’s your opinion? A rigger would get away very, very cheaply if he only needed 1 rating 3 program for 3K for his 20 drones…
It does seem reasonable that a pilot program would be bought with an encoded skill like “Groundcraft” or “Aircraft” or “Anthroform” but it doesn’t really SAY it in the book, only when it comes to complementary programs like maneuvering autosoft.
With this said one MIGHT be able to aquire a pilot program for almost anything except for the fact that it says on page 238 in SR4 that almost any kind of VEHICLE might serve as a drone, this also implicates that pilot programs are exclusively designed for vehicles, and should in that case be tailormade for a specific kind of vehicle, or vehicle group (it sounds a bit extreme if one would have to buy a specific program for a Subcompact and another for a Limousine.)
I DO wonder if it would be possible to get a Pilot Program for a Commlink but according to the rules they don’t seem to be made for controlling commlinks, not as OS in any case but more like independent OS (Agents) loaded on the commlinks OS.
Still, it could be incredible gamebreaking with 1 hacker having a small army of extra commlinks taking orders from him, and then using several agents – or joe shmoe samurai using a drone hacker for so that he won’t need to hire that hot hacker…
Crap, I’m ranting.
Ok, found something interesting...
------------------------------------------------------------------
Rigging Security Systems
It is possible for the devices in a security
system (cameras, maglocked doors, tripwires,
fi xed gun-drones, and other sensors and secmeasures)
to be rigger-adapted and subscribed
to a central node so that a rigger can “jump
into” the entire security system.
------------------------------------------------------------------
According to page 239 “Rigging Security Systems” it states (see above) that one can rigger adapt almost anything (Maglocks, Doors, Tripwires). Interesting, especially since it says on page 238 “Drones”
------------------------------------------------------------------
The key difference that sets drones apart from ordinary vehicles is the rigger
adaptation that provides drones with a Pilot program,
------------------------------------------------------------------
Which basically means that as long as one pays for a rigger adaption on almost ANY piece of electronic equipment one could equip it with a Pilot program for that device?
A Camera pilot program loaded with extra sensors and clearsight would really make runners even more paranoid since they could function autonomously from the security hacker and be a cheaper alternative for companies on a budget (camera+rating 3 pilot+clearsight+link to Lonestar)
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| The reason that the pilot rating of the drone acts as it's system rating and all that is because a drone's dog brain computer is NOT a commlink. |
Check out p. 213.
Pilot is for any device.
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| Which basically means that as long as one pays for a rigger adaption on almost ANY piece of electronic equipment one could equip it with a Pilot program for that device? |
More likely a leftover, contradicting the definition and various equipment.
Rigger adaption by itself is only needed to get the +2 dice out of your control rig - you can even go full VR into a vehicle without it.
Well, even if it's a leftover it DOES implicates that one could make a camera into an independent drone. As one example they have the Smart Firing platform which is just a stationary turret with a pilot 3 (which I assume is a "Smart Firing Platform Pilot Program" designed for that specific function.
For home security one could add a ”Maglock pilot Program” and add sensors to it with a camera so that it can call the cops or inform the owner via matrix link if someone tries to tamper with it.
For home security one could add a ”Maglock pilot Program” and add sensors to it with a camera so that it can call the cops or inform the owner via matrix link if someone tries to tamper with it.
In SR4, there is no such thing as a specific Pilot.
Yeah, they can make general decisions. The more specific skills are autosofts.
For instance, maneuver - Anthroform autosoft.
For instance, maneuver - Anthroform autosoft.
So, could one equip a toaster with a rigger interface and then add the Toastmaster 4000 Toaster Pilot program for those extra crispy toasts?
And perhaps even add the Maneuver - Toaster autosoft and Clearsight and Olfactory sensor so that it will sense if the toast is burning or well done?
And perhaps even add the Maneuver - Toaster autosoft and Clearsight and Olfactory sensor so that it will sense if the toast is burning or well done?
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| So, could one equip a toaster with a rigger interface and then add the Toastmaster 4000 Toaster Pilot program for those extra crispy toasts? And perhaps even add the Maneuver - Toaster autosoft and Clearsight and Olfactory sensor so that it will sense if the toast is burning or well done? |
Sure. It won't start toasting until it hears you get up in the morning, and it'll hold the finished toast inside on a "warming" setting until it sees you walk up, and pops it up into your hand. It'll talk to your commlink and tell you to buy more bread if it sees that you're running low. And then, if you decide you don't like toast anymore, it kills your family!
Which brings me to the next question, and something that has already been discussed, why are people so opposed to the idea of Pilot controlled commlinks? If one can make a decision making autonomous toaster that can take care of your toast while you awake - Why wouldn't one be able to make a pilot program that controls a commlink and functions like a more limited Hacker?
Essentially one has a stationary drone with autosofts for each skill it wants to access. Except for the unbalancing factor, why not? It would be the perfect extra hacker for a hacker, or a computer assistant for the streetsam.
If a toaster why not a commlink (except for the unbalancing factor of having a crapload of hackers at your disposal)
If a pilot program can become the OS for ANYTHING and control ANYTHING it becomes quite powerful, especially for the mere lvl 3 at 600Y a pop. The rating 4 might be 10000 but thats not bad if you need a somewhat skilled hacker.
Essentially one has a stationary drone with autosofts for each skill it wants to access. Except for the unbalancing factor, why not? It would be the perfect extra hacker for a hacker, or a computer assistant for the streetsam.
If a toaster why not a commlink (except for the unbalancing factor of having a crapload of hackers at your disposal)
If a pilot program can become the OS for ANYTHING and control ANYTHING it becomes quite powerful, especially for the mere lvl 3 at 600Y a pop. The rating 4 might be 10000 but thats not bad if you need a somewhat skilled hacker.
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| So, could one equip a toaster with a rigger interface and then add the Toastmaster 4000 Toaster Pilot program for those extra crispy toasts? |
You don't know Mr. Fridge 6000 yet - the fridge with four cyber legs and a fuel cell...
Still, you don't need a rigger interface if you dont want to hook up your control rig...
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| Why wouldn't one be able to make a pilot program that controls a commlink and functions like a more limited Hacker? |
Thats perfectly possible - just Agents tend to be more versatile.
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| Electronic Warfare System Tell your Drones and/or Commlink Drones to flood the area with electronic warfare emissions when you go into combat (System 4 + Program 5= 9D6 for Electronic Warfare) |
Your number here is wrong:
| QUOTE (the last paragraph of p. 225 SR4) |
| Remember that a device cannot run a program at its full effect at a rating above its System rating (A Rating 5 program run on a System 3 device operates as if it were Rating 3). Additionally, if a device is running more programs at once than its System rating, reduce the Response on that device by 1 per (System) programs (ie, a System 5 device running 10 programs at once suffers –2 to its Response). |
Still, as fire-and-forget cover for withdrawal, it's still a nice idea.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
Thats perfectly possible - just Agents tend to be more versatile. |
Eer, no, you're missing my point. An OS for a commlink is merely a computer system (let's say like windows XP) and they don't really have decision making abilities. One CAN on the other hand upload Agents and IC that HAS those abilities.
The effect I'm looking for is a commlink whose OS *is* the Pilot which means that the system itself is decision making so that it can switch programs it has loaded without orders from the owner, it could upload its own agents, IC, switch programs like Edit for a Command program and be a lot more versatile than an agent since it could activate its own agents and programs that IC and Agents cannot.
Ah, so you don't want a hacker in a box, but a real persona digital assistant.
Quite useful if set up right... and perhaps annoying if smarter than you, especially if implanted... that nagging voice of conscience reloaded.
Quite useful if set up right... and perhaps annoying if smarter than you, especially if implanted... that nagging voice of conscience reloaded.
Random Thought
Would it be practical/possible to run an agent on your own comm that had the sole function of utility management. It simply monitored your activity and uploaded or downloaded utlities it anticipated you needed for you based on a predictive pattern recognition program.
Would it be practical/possible to run an agent on your own comm that had the sole function of utility management. It simply monitored your activity and uploaded or downloaded utlities it anticipated you needed for you based on a predictive pattern recognition program.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| Ah, so you don't want a hacker in a box, but a real persona digital assistant. Quite useful if set up right... and perhaps annoying if smarter than you, especially if implanted... that nagging voice of conscience reloaded. |
EXACTLY! - Except for that conscience thingy
The drawback is that it could be terribly gamebreaking - even though it is something that corporations might have instead of a security hacker, much cheaper.
Virtual Person, with adminstrative skills? I'm sure it'd be packaged as "Office 2070" if Microsoft hadn't been razed multiple times.
Just as long as the icon doesn't look like a paperclip.
Just as long as the icon doesn't look like a paperclip.
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| Virtual Person, with adminstrative skills? I'm sure it'd be packaged as "Office 2070" if Microsoft hadn't been razed multiple times. Just as long as the icon doesn't look like a paperclip. |
Uh I think Microsoft is alive and well as MicroDeck Industries (p. 86 New Seattle) right down to the Gates Family. Don't know if "clippy" survived to 2070 though.
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| Virtual Person, with adminstrative skills? I'm sure it'd be packaged as "Office 2070" if Microsoft hadn't been razed multiple times. Just as long as the icon doesn't look like a paperclip. |
Well, there is that, but that still doesn't make it a drone with decision making abilities, merely a commlink with a virtual persona. It will not make decisions on the fly as a situation arise without input from the owner of the commlink.
Neither would a Drone without directive.
The point is, as soon as it has orders and a Pilot, it can make decisions when situations change...
The point is, as soon as it has orders and a Pilot, it can make decisions when situations change...
I am opposed to your Damnable Drone commlinks because THAT IS WHAT A FRICKEN AGENT IS, and you have gone a long way out of your way to make an agent that is not an agent, when you should have just bought an agent. If it looks like an agent, acts like an agent, and smells like an agent, ITS AN AGENT, and I suggest you stop trying to rig you commlink and just log onto it like it is meant to be used.
But don't mistake my own burning, flaming hatred of this idea for general derision. From my perspecitve I seem to be the only one who thinks this is blatantly bending the rules for mechanical advantage.
But don't mistake my own burning, flaming hatred of this idea for general derision. From my perspecitve I seem to be the only one who thinks this is blatantly bending the rules for mechanical advantage.
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| From my perspecitve I seem to be the only one who thinks this is blatantly bending the rules for mechanical advantage. |
Sorry, but it pretty explicit that when you desire decision making on a device, installing Pilot instead of System does the trick.
I read it. It also states that:
| QUOTE (SR4 rules @ page 214) |
| Pilot is used in place of System for vehicles,drones,and agents,but otherwise has the same function as System. |
I t seems very clear to me that the Agent is a pilot program on your commlink. They are listed as the same program when it comes to buying programs, why do you insist on separating them?
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| I t seems very clear to me that the Agent is a pilot program on your commlink. |
In a way... Pilot is tied to Hardware, replacing System.
An Agent, on the other hand, isn't - it will run on the node it is at the moment, and count as one running program towards the System Limit of that Node.
As an Agent is an Node, but a Node without own hardware, it indeed features a as it's System - but it isn't forced to run on that commlink, though it can...
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| They are listed as the same program when it comes to buying programs, why do you insist on separating them? |
Erm, not quite - they are listes as different programs having the same price. Hacking and Normale Use Programs are listed as groups, too... but the specific Programs aren't the same thing.
So I can see where you are coming from, but in the end, Pilot, Agent and IC are seperate software - you have to pay for each of them.
| QUOTE (SR4 rules @ pg 228) |
| IC programs are the equivalent to agents and function the same. |
So no, IC and agents aren't different except in title. So it seems reasonable to extend that to pilot programs as well. Except that, after re-reading the rules again, I have come to a conclusion that renders that point moot
Pilot isn't a program, it is a stat.
Some things have a pilot stat instead of system. Agents and IC are two examples. Drones are another one. So you don't "Equip" a device with a pilot program, it either has one (IC, Agents, drones) or it doesn't.
The way to give the pilot stat to a vehicle is to install the rigger black box. The way to give the pilot stat to your commlink is to load an agent.
What it comes down to is that they all have the same capabilities of autonimous decision making. It is the same software, people. It has different applications, but it's the same tool. Using a screwdriver both to pry open a lid and to tighten a screw does not make the tool different, even though you use the same tool quite differently. The same agent you buy to hack your enemies for you can also guard your commlink against intrusion, can also drive your car for you. You may need to make multiple copies, you will need to switch out their subroutines (Expliot for hacking, trace as IC, pilot autosofts for drone control), but the core here is a program capable of autonomous decision making capability. That is the pilot program. And when you load it on a commlink it uses the rules for agents outlined in the matrix chapter, p. 227.
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| So no, IC and agents aren't different except in title. |
From a game mechanic PoV, as the are using the same rules as anyone else, sure... but they still are used differently, and only IC is automatically launched by a normal host.
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| So it seems reasonable to extend that to pilot programs as well. |
Eh, well, they are using the same rules as anybody else, too...
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| Pilot isn't a program, it is a stat. |
Of course, System neither is a Program - both are software, though... and, being designed to act as System, it not only can run directly on a device, but has to.
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| The way to give the pilot stat to a vehicle is to install the rigger black box. |
As seen both normal vehicles, the auto-tripod and the rigger adaption, this is not the case... the latter is explicitly only necessary to get the benefits out of a control rig - like smartgun and smartlink.
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| And when you load it on a commlink it uses the rules for agents outlined in the matrix chapter, p. 227. |
Sorry, but you are seriously mixing things up... get some sleep.
Though with the simplified rules, everything that makes decisions has a Pilot, it is still different software.
Still, the purpose of trying to ban pilot from normal devices eludes me - you can order any drone to do the same things, and more.
| QUOTE |
| I am opposed to your Damnable Drone commlinks because THAT IS WHAT A FRICKEN AGENT IS, and you have gone a long way out of your way to make an agent that is not an agent, when you should have just bought an agent. If it looks like an agent, acts like an agent, and smells like an agent, ITS AN AGENT, and I suggest you stop trying to rig you commlink and just log onto it like it is meant to be used. But don't mistake my own burning, flaming hatred of this idea for general derision. From my perspecitve I seem to be the only one who thinks this is blatantly bending the rules for mechanical advantage. |
Hmm, we seem to disagree on more than one note, let me clarify my standpoint.
1.
I still insist, as do several others that there is a definite difference between DRONE operating system (PILOT) and an AGENT program, they use the same rules but an AGENT requires an operating system to function since it is loaded like a program. A dedicated PILOT program IS an operating system that can use other programs but has its own response rating. The “pilot” part on both of them defines that they can both make their own decisions akin to their programming.
Neither Agent or IC have the ability to load themselves unto an OS and do things, they need to be loaded into the system by an operator. The IC is the only program that will initiate an attack/defense against an intruder in the system, an agent need a specific instructions. The best way to see it is that Agents, IC and Drones have a pilot RATING which describes their intelligence.
You see an Agent as THE pilot when in fact all three systems (Agents, IC Drones) use the same rules but are very different from each other. A PILOT is a controlling OS with a specific function of operating a device, an AGENT is a program with a pilot rating that can use a number of programs, it cannot in itself load other agents or IC.
2.
I understand and agree on the unbalancing factor of a drone commlink, as long as one LETS it be unbalancing. I don’t want my hacker to be a fleet commander of hacker commlinks – All I want is an autonomous decision making operating system that can analyze threats against itself, load agents, IC close down the Edit program and report to me when it finds out that someone is hacking my commlink. I want it for A: Flavor B: A defensive function within the commlink. It will not have the ability to hack or any such thing, it will just be a secondary commlink with some extra bells and whistles.
3.
I DO NOT want to bend the rules to my advantage but I DO see a field that has been unexplored. What about small time companies that cannot afford a security Hacker? They can load a pilot program (OS) on their mainframe to function as a security system and it can monitor the system, load agents when needed and make sure that everything works smoothly (Something Agents CANNOT). You can even make security cameras into drones, thus making them independent of the rest of the system since they could keep reporting with a short range signal to some alarm post to call the STAR even when the rest of the system is taken down.
Another long rant, sorry about that. As I said, I would stop a player from abusing commlink drones as well because I see them as a cheap defensive measure compared to a security hacker, or a redundancy for a character to busy to check his commlink all the time.
So, what can we do AGAINST those that wants to abuse the Pilot Hacker Commlink tactic then? I WOULD allow players to have “Smart”Comms to help them in their daily life but if the players have them so do the opposition, and several joe shmoe on the street.
One thing that should be done is to remember that a Drone commlink without orders within a hostile node would be quite screwed unless the hacker had given it specific orders on what it should do when its task is finished or failed, it would have to start making Logic tests just to decide what to do.
--
Hacking has become increasingly difficult when several people started to install the new “Smart” OS with active defenses against hacking and spam attempts. Now the user wont have to worry about spam attacks and virtual snoopers as the “Smart” system constantly checks your firewall, streamline your program usage, and acts as your personal secretary – and even gives the occasional hacker a sting by activating an agent or two and it’s IC software to hunt them down.
The system will be expensive (Rating 3: 3000 / Rating 4: 10000) but will be tailored with the personality of your choice (Virtual person programs cost extra). The system can be upgraded with the Computer autosoft.
--
The new “Guardian” limited Smartframe for companies on a budget will give you an edge against computer crime. Like the “Smart” OS this one is tailored for companies who cannot afford a dedicated security company or hacker. Use it as your main OS or put it on a secondary node and let it sniff out any intruders, launch agents and load up on IC. Let it call the Star or contact the guards on duty that something is going down.
The newest models are “Shodan” and “HAL” the older “Deus” have been discontinued due to bad sales.
--
DroneCAM: part of the S.W.A.R.M technology. RFID tags equipped with a camera and seeded throuout the building of your choice, evenly spaced along walls and ceiling every three meters, recording everything they see to several independents computer systems. Each computer system is loaded with the S.W.A.R.M Pilot OS and communicates independently with each other. In the case of one of their computer systems goes down the systems takes immediate action and contacts the appropriate people (most often the local guards or in some cases lonestar)
--
LEGION Advanced Node security.
The legion security system is a simple communications system between several operating systems controlled by an independent pilot OS that are in constant communication with each other. The moment the system is breached and an attack is discovered (by the launching of IC programs the OS will notify the other systems around it about the attack and they will start a combined war against the intruder and boost up their defenses with agents and close down unnessecary programs for the duration of the attack.
The OS will decide if a complete activation of defenses is necessary or if should just let the IC do it’s job.
One thing that should be done is to remember that a Drone commlink without orders within a hostile node would be quite screwed unless the hacker had given it specific orders on what it should do when its task is finished or failed, it would have to start making Logic tests just to decide what to do.
--
Hacking has become increasingly difficult when several people started to install the new “Smart” OS with active defenses against hacking and spam attempts. Now the user wont have to worry about spam attacks and virtual snoopers as the “Smart” system constantly checks your firewall, streamline your program usage, and acts as your personal secretary – and even gives the occasional hacker a sting by activating an agent or two and it’s IC software to hunt them down.
The system will be expensive (Rating 3: 3000 / Rating 4: 10000) but will be tailored with the personality of your choice (Virtual person programs cost extra). The system can be upgraded with the Computer autosoft.
--
The new “Guardian” limited Smartframe for companies on a budget will give you an edge against computer crime. Like the “Smart” OS this one is tailored for companies who cannot afford a dedicated security company or hacker. Use it as your main OS or put it on a secondary node and let it sniff out any intruders, launch agents and load up on IC. Let it call the Star or contact the guards on duty that something is going down.
The newest models are “Shodan” and “HAL” the older “Deus” have been discontinued due to bad sales.
--
DroneCAM: part of the S.W.A.R.M technology. RFID tags equipped with a camera and seeded throuout the building of your choice, evenly spaced along walls and ceiling every three meters, recording everything they see to several independents computer systems. Each computer system is loaded with the S.W.A.R.M Pilot OS and communicates independently with each other. In the case of one of their computer systems goes down the systems takes immediate action and contacts the appropriate people (most often the local guards or in some cases lonestar)
--
LEGION Advanced Node security.
The legion security system is a simple communications system between several operating systems controlled by an independent pilot OS that are in constant communication with each other. The moment the system is breached and an attack is discovered (by the launching of IC programs the OS will notify the other systems around it about the attack and they will start a combined war against the intruder and boost up their defenses with agents and close down unnessecary programs for the duration of the attack.
The OS will decide if a complete activation of defenses is necessary or if should just let the IC do it’s job.
question, can a drone use say an attack program thats stored in its memory?
It can, and will as it's Pilot includes Computer, Hacking and Cybercombat.
Given the Electronic Warfare Autosoft it will even intercept and decrypt signals if ordered to.
Making up specific software BTW is plusplus ungood in SR4.
Always keep in mind that having a Pilot on a Device allows it to act on it's own when given orders, but that also means that it can be spoofed orders...
Given the Electronic Warfare Autosoft it will even intercept and decrypt signals if ordered to.
Making up specific software BTW is plusplus ungood in SR4.
Always keep in mind that having a Pilot on a Device allows it to act on it's own when given orders, but that also means that it can be spoofed orders...
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