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jacklind
I’ve only just begun reading about spellcasting, so please bare with me!

I’m a mage with spellcasting 5 and magic 5. With equipment I weigh about 100 kg. I want to levitate myself and I don’t want physical drain, so I choose a force 4 levitate.

In the book is says: “The caster must achieve a threshold on the Spellcasting Test equal to 1 per 200 kg of the subject’s mass.”

So I use 10 dice and I just need to get 1 hit for the spell to work, right?

Let’s say I’m unlucky I only get the one hit and now I want to know how fast I’m moving.

In the book is says: “The subject of the spell can be moved anywhere in the caster’s line of sight at a Movement rate equal to the spell’s Magic x net Spellcasting hits in meters per turn.”

Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t get it. Is “the spell’s Magic” the spells force ((4) x something) or is it my magic ((5) x something)? And the “net Spellcasting hits” are the hits that exceed the hit(s) I need for the spell to work, right? If so the spell works with 1 hit, but I move nowhere coz my movement rate is 0 net hits x something = 0 meters.

I’ve got the feeling I misunderstood something major here. I hope you can help. smile.gif
Feshy
No, that's how I read it too.

At least, 1 hit will keep you from falling to a horrible, horrible death when the catwalk over the twinkie cream vat you are sneaking along gives way. "Zero" movement is still "not falling" nyahnyah.gif
Lilt
It's calculated on your magic. If you get 1 success on a threshold 1 spell then you can thus move the object at a rate of 0.

Sound useless? A rate of 0 can still have its uses, like for stopping yourself when falling or holding a heavy weight to stop it from crushing someone further (or holding a heavy object in ambush ready to crush someone).

[edit]Dammn you feshy-the-quick! Dammn you and your little dog too![/edit]
jacklind
Now now, you were both very quick. wink.gif

Thanks both of you for the quick reply. I did almost get it after all. smile.gif

I didn't think of the uses you actually could have from at 0 movement rate levitate spell. Thanks for adding those suggestions.
jacklind
BTW wasn't the movement rate of levitate a lot higher in SR3 or is it just me!?
Jaid
iirc, in SR3 the movement rate was magic*force, which is the maximum possible in SR4, i believe.

so, generally speaking, yes SR4 allowed faster movement.
blakkie
QUOTE (jacklind @ Nov 24 2005, 06:31 PM)
BTW wasn't the movement rate of levitate a lot higher in SR3 or is it just me!?

For the same Magic and Force what was SR3's constant Magic x Force is always faster than SR4's top end of Magic x (Force - 1) for targets up to 200kg (subtracting 1 from the Force for every portion of 200kg).** SR3 was more of an all-or-nothing situation where the weight affected the TN (+1 per unit, forget the unit) as did OR. So it used to be faster if it worked, and you could lucky shot it with single die to be very fast (if you knew high enough Force). Now to be very fast you basically need to overcast and use Edge to try max out your hits.

** I'm not sure where OR is suppose to come into this? It reads like it isn't, but to closer follow the general SR4 spell design pattern the base Theshhold would be OR (not a constant 1) to which you add +1 / 200kg?
evil1i
QUOTE
“The caster must achieve a threshold on the Spellcasting Test equal to 1 per 200 kg of the subject’s mass.”
“The subject of the spell can be moved anywhere in the caster’s line of sight at a Movement rate equal to the mages’ Magic x net Spellcasting hits in meters per turn.”


I think this last bit should be:

“The subject of the spell can be moved anywhere in the caster’s line of sight at a Movement rate equal to the mages’ Magic x (net Spellcasting hits x200kg / Weight. To a max of 2 x Force) in meters per turn.”

So for Jaklind's example with say 2 hits rolled rather than the 1 described:

Magic 5 x (1 net success x 200kg / 100kg) = 10m/turn

and nekid:

Magic 5 x (1 net success x 200kg / 80kg) = 12.5m/turn

or after 6 months of 'good livin':

Magic 5 x (1 net success x 200kg / 120kg) = 8.3m/turn

and a theoretical max:

Magic 5 x (9 net successes x 200kg / 100kg) = 90m/turn (108km/h)

you could ramp this up but even if we make a mage really really good (best I have ever seen in one of my games was a magic of 14 so we will go with that)

Magic 14 (max force of spell = 28)
Max spell casting skill = 7 (+2) specialisation (+2) totem* = 11 dice
Edge 6 (spent before rolling)

total 31 dice - assume all hits and 15 roll 6's and so explode - and we'll say 3 of them explodes again** and finally none explode but all have subsequently hit = total of 49 hits unfortunately max number of hits = force so only 29 are used (1 for threshold 28 for net successes)

so

Magic 14 x (28 x 200kg / 100kg) = 784m/turn = 940.8 Km/h


* I haven't looked up to see if there is a totem that gives +2 to levitate spells but I'm assuming there will be at some stage smile.gif
** can't remember if edge exploding keeps going or it is just once off - am assuming it keeps going.
blakkie
Thanks for a partial demonstration of why i wouldn't want it to be like that. nyahnyah.gif The other part being the time [lost] trying to figure out the weight of our intrepid flyboy w/gear instead of "over 200kg or under 200kg?"
Feshy
QUOTE (blakkie)
Thanks for a partial demonstration of why i wouldn't want it to be like that. nyahnyah.gif The other part being the time [lost] trying to figure out the weight of our intrepid flyboy w/gear instead of "over 200kg or under 200kg?"

That goes like this:

Are you a troll, or wearing full body armor?
Yes: over 200.

No: Under 200.

Barring extreme examples, 200 kilos is pretty darn hefty. A human that is 200 kilos heavy won't be running the shadows. Or running at all, for that matter.

QUOTE
feshy-the-quick!


Funny, that's what my wife calls me to. Wait! No! It was Feshy-the-Troll-Sized! Blast! Where is that edit button!?
TonkaTuff
QUOTE (evil1i)
* I haven't looked up to see if there is a totem that gives +2 to levitate spells but I'm assuming there will be at some stage smile.gif

Raven and Fire-Bringer fit the bill nicely... +2 dice to all manipulation spells. Which, of course, are where they put all the really fun ones.
jacklind
I think I'm going for the "over 200kg or under 200kg" rule. smile.gif The other way make sense though, but too time consuming.

If you wanted to go really fast, you could always summon a spirit and have it use it's movement power. (Spirit force x movement rate)= bloody fast if you've got magic 14 and 11 spellcasting dice biggrin.gif

And if you are a normal spellcaster it not unlikely you get 2-3 net hits. So that could be something like (5 (magic) x 3 (net hits) = 15 meters/turn) X say a force 3 spirit= 45 meters/turn (54 km). With luck (5x5= 25 m/t) x 5) = 125 m/t (almost 150 km), right!?
Cold-Dragon
Just to tickle the speed barrier bubble...doesn't edge or the magic section say that dice limits on ability are negated when using edge?

As in if you cast a low force powerbolt with edge, you can exceed your limited number of hits allowed?

force 2 powerbolt = 2 or less hits (period)
force 2 powerbolt w/ edge = priceless, like mastercard

I know I read something like that, or close to it anyways...fun for speed or other things like barriers that need a power boost.
Feshy
QUOTE (Cold-Dragon)
Just to tickle the speed barrier bubble...doesn't edge or the magic section say that dice limits on ability are negated when using edge?

As in if you cast a low force powerbolt with edge, you can exceed your limited number of hits allowed?

force 2 powerbolt = 2 or less hits (period)
force 2 powerbolt w/ edge = priceless, like mastercard

I know I read something like that, or close to it anyways...fun for speed or other things like barriers that need a power boost.

I believe it says the force limit "does not apply to edge dice" -- which means one of three things:

Assume for argument's sake that you have sorcery 4, magic 5, and edge 4.

1) Edge tests are completely unbound. Cast at force 1 (since it doesn't matter, unless it's combat) and roll 13 dice. The number of hits you roll is the number of hits you get.

2) Edge dice are not limited by force; everything else is. Roll 9 dice, reduce the number of hits to the force. Then roll 4 dice, and add those hits to the previous dice.

3) Edge dice are the ONLY things that the limit does not apply to. Roll 9 dice, reduce to the force. Roll 4 dice, and compare THAT to the force. If it is higher than the force, go with that amount. Otherwise, add them to the hits from before, and reduce to the force.

2) and 3) have no other references in the rules, so I'd say they are unlikely. It's probably 1; that makes bookkeeping easier. But the wording sounds closer to 2.

A good place to use the Edge rule is on mind probes. Then you can cast discretely at low force (they know they are being mind probed, but not who cast), yet still rack up a pile of successes and rip the evil plot right out of their heads.
Akimbo
Objects (especially people) look funny flying into things at very high velocities. Your magic using friend would look especially appealing as a grease stain on a wall.
blakkie
QUOTE (Cold-Dragon)
Just to tickle the speed barrier bubble...doesn't edge or the magic section say that dice limits on ability are negated when using edge?

As in if you cast a low force powerbolt with edge, you can exceed your limited number of hits allowed?

force 2 powerbolt = 2 or less hits (period)
force 2 powerbolt w/ edge = priceless, like mastercard

I know I read something like that, or close to it anyways...fun for speed or other things like barriers that need a power boost.

It's on page 172, bottom left. Robart (IIRC) mentioned before that he thought it just refered to the optional rule of the Spellcasting skill limiting hits, but that is not the case.

As to what happens when you add Edge dice to the pool instead of rolling afterwards? *shrug*
blakkie
QUOTE (jacklind)
I think I'm going for the "over 200kg or under 200kg" rule. smile.gif The other way make sense though, but too time consuming.

It "makes sense" up until a Magic (4) weaking uses a Force 3 spell to toss the beefiest Devil Rat he can find 4 x 3 x (200/4)= 600m/t (720km/hr). Then stuff gets reeeeal crazy when he pulls out Raggot, his pet gerbil, and fires him off at 4 x 3 x (200/0.100) = 24km/t, which is roughly Mach 23!
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (blakkie)
It's on page 172, bottom left. Robart (IIRC) mentioned before that he thought it just refered to the optional rule of the Spellcasting skill limiting hits, but that is not the case.

As to what happens when you add Edge dice to the pool instead of rolling afterwards?

IDRC, but AFAIR on p. 172, only the hits generated by the edge dice exceed the limit - so no problem is throwing edge in afterwards. wink.gif
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (blakkie)
Then stuff gets reeeeal crazy when he pulls out Raggot, his pet gerbil, and fires him off at 4 x 3 x (200/0.100) = 24km/t, which is roughly Mach 23!

ARMAGEDDON!
rotfl.gif
apollo124
QUOTE (blakkie)

It "makes sense" up until a Magic (4) weaking uses a Force 3 spell to toss the beefiest Devil Rat he can find 4 x 3 x (200/4)= 600m/t (720km/hr).  Then stuff gets reeeeal crazy when he pulls out Raggot, his pet gerbil, and fires him off at 4 x 3 x (200/0.100) = 24km/t, which is roughly Mach 23!

And thus was born the "Gerbil Assault Cannon spell". eek.gif eek.gif eek.gif eek.gif eek.gif
RunnerPaul
Knowing the story behind Raggot the gerbil, it's more of an ASSault cannon spell.
Cold-Dragon
Well, despite the potential mayhem of the gerbilizer, keep in mind that this only works out well if you have a high edge to begin with.

if you have the minimal 1 or 2, you are a one shot wonder as far as fast acting rodents get you.Otherwise it's a good finishing move on a prime runner or annoying Johnson if you aim upward for a round or two.

However, if you have the higher edge of 5 or more, that's quite a few rounds you have.
Fortunately, the break value of this trick is limited by the very nature of edge: do you really want to risk the stuff that can save your life repeated in a day, just so you can get some easy kills or laughter and then be out of lady luck for several more days?

That'd be even worse if your GM has stricter recharge rules....I don't want to know what happens if you somehow glitch or critical glitch on such a thing.
blakkie
QUOTE (Cold-Dragon @ Nov 28 2005, 11:35 PM)
Well, despite the potential mayhem of the gerbilizer, keep in mind that this only works out well if you have a high edge to  begin with.

"Besides" the gerbilizer???? That a big fucking "besides", and it is sitting "besides" the tubby Devil Rat breaking landspeed records, and an average sized Devil Rat breaking the sound barrier. wobble.gif wobble.gif wobble.gif And that has nothing to do with Edge, overcasting, or even a respectable starting mage Magic.
Feshy
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (Cold-Dragon @ Nov 28 2005, 11:35 PM)
Well, despite the potential mayhem of the gerbilizer, keep in mind that this only works out well if you have a high edge to  begin with.

"Besides" the gerbilizer???? That a big fucking "besides", and it is sitting "besides" the tubby Devil Rat breaking landspeed records, and an average sized Devil Rat breaking the sound barrier. wobble.gif wobble.gif wobble.gif And that has nothing to do with Edge, overcasting, or even a respectable starting mage Magic.

Of course, you could avoid the whole issue entirely by noting that the word "per" is not exactly the same as the words "divided by."

Thus, 0 to 200 kg = 1 success needed, 201-400 kg = two successes needed, etc.

No "divided by" needed, thus, no crazy speeds. "Under" 200 kg or "Over," for most runners.

Otherwise, I'm never drawing a gun again, and just flinging small grains of sand at significant portions of "c." Since I really doubt thats what they mean, stick with "per" and not "divide by."
blakkie
QUOTE (Feshy)
Otherwise, I'm never drawing a gun again, and just flinging small grains of sand at significant portions of "c." Since I really doubt thats what they mean, stick with "per" and not "divide by."

That's all to do with evil1i suggested alteration. Without that alteration, to exceed normal vehicle speed limits you have to deal with good amounts of drain.
Cold-Dragon
Is that where Mach ## came from? I was wondering about that, lol....

Still useful for giving someone a boost into the sky however, by the time they get out of your perception they should be just fine for a plummet.
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