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The Stainless Steel Rat
Despite my efforts, I cannot find the description of how to determine a materialized Ally Spirit's attack damage code. MITS has a records sheet for an Ally, and on this sheet is a field for the attack power of your Ally, but nowhere can I find this info!

Also, shouldn't the attack be based on the form? If I pay Karma for additional forms, will the spirit have the same attack whether it is materialized as a mouse, human, or grizzly bear?
tisoz
I go with the standard (Strength)M Stun.

Attributes and forms have nothing in common, so there is an arguement for it not influencing reach or damage codes. I'd talk to the GM while creating the ally to see if there are going to be any perks for different forms.
The Stainless Steel Rat
Problem is that I AM the GM, and while I've never really had a problem using GM caveat on issues like this in the past I usually at least want to know what the cannon ruling is before I over-rule it.
PiXeL01
Personally I would go for dam code based on form, but Power depending on Strength.

If Human (Strength)M Stun and so on
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (PiXeL01)
Personally I would go for dam code based on form, but Power depending on Strength.

If Human (Strength)M Stun and so on

Damage code/type and weapon reach based on form..

Something humanish with claws? The SURGE mod "claws" listed a damage code I think? If not, it's close to hand razors. Use that.
Something humanish with a spur-like extension? Treat it like a spur.
Something troll-like? Normal unarmed, with 1 reach (like a troll).

Basically, find something, weapon or critter, and use the modifiers appropriate. Just be sure to enforce the creation stuff... make them have the appropriate skills to actually design an ally with something like monowire tentacles.. if you allow it at all.
tisoz
QUOTE (Dawnshadow)
Just be sure to enforce the creation stuff... make them have the appropriate skills to actually design an ally with something like monowire tentacles.. if you allow it at all.

So do they need to know biology, biotech, medicine and anatomy to designate a human form? Or Edged Weapon B/R to have it look like a knife? I think as long as the magician can imagine the form, he can designate it.

Now if you actually meant requiring the ally to have the combat skill to take advantage of its form, I agree. Which means the magician needs to know the skill to give it to the ally.
The Stainless Steel Rat
OK... so I take this thread to mean nobody else could find the cannon ruling either.

For the record, I am going to houserule thusly:

Materialization forms follow the same restrictions as Inhabitaion (Mundane Critters only) with the sole exception being Metahuman forms are allowed. Review the attack for the critter, and express it as a function of (Str+X)Damage Level, and list the appropriate attack code for each purchased form. When in animal form, the attacking skill used is Reaction, as normal for critters.

Any comments or complaints regarding this?
Edward
There are a large number of examples in books of allies materializing as inanimate objects.

I would be inclined to allow an ally to materialize in any form of reasonable size. In the case of critters its damage code is as the critter (modified for strength) and it gets non of the supernatural powers of a supernatural critter (but it can look like a hellhound if you want)

Edward
The Stainless Steel Rat
Good Point. But say the Summoner chooses the form of Cerebus? Will the Ally get the extra two attacks per complex action? (Due to the extra heads...) Or say instead that he chooses a human with claws (use stats for surge claws)... now the ally does physical damage for free? Should the attack power of the form be calculated into the cost of the ally?

And this opens another can of worms: Critter Powers or even other Spirit Powers.

If he takes the Hell Hound form, could he then purchase the flamethrower power, or the Immune to Flame power for when the ally is manifest?

Or could the Ally be created with other Powers/Services like Aid Study? Personal Domain? Movement?

To houserule this I would think it easiest to simply determine cost per power and figure it into the base Karma Cost (and therefore complexity), much like Sense Link has a cost of 5.

-or-

Give the spirit whichever of the designated "Ally Spirit Powers" at force 1. Then use the Free Spirit advancement rules from MITS for each point of Force beyond 1 to determine if new powers are added. If so, the summoner can chose the new power.

In either of the above cases I would create a list of "GM Approved" powers for selection, as some of them are clearly unbalancing. (Shedim's Drain Karma topping the list, followed by Sacrifice, etc.)
hyzmarca
A spirit's form is what it looks like not what it is. A Spirit is simply a collection of mana that possesses sapience and something resembling sentience (It is questionable if Unnamed spirits possess actual sentience or not.) .

When a spirit materializes it creates substance in a basic predeternimed shape and a shape is all that the material form is. Spirit with a human form appears to be human on the outside but its true nature should be obvious on the inside. It has no blood and no organs. Bullets are likely to pass through it without causing harm because there is nothing in there to damage.

Likewise, spirit in the form is a rat simply has the shape of a rat. It doesn't have the attributes of a rat. It has its own strength, bosy, and quickness which are independant of the arbitrary shape that it as taken.

A spirit in the form of a hellhound would look like a hellound but it would n't have any powers. Even if one argues that shape modifies damage code innate spells are all about the manipulation of mana just as normal spells are.
The Stainless Steel Rat
So instead of the critter power flamethrower the ally needs to learn the spell Flamethrower and the Sorcery Power, and Sorcery Skill. That is cannon, and that is cool. I guess that was a bad example. What about other critter powers that can't be duplicated by spells?

1) Should we allow the creation of an ally spirit that manifests as a Paranormal Creature with Paranormal Powers?

2) Should we allow Ally Spirits access to powers beyond the 7 listed in MITS?

If the answer to either is yes, how would you change the cost of the Ally?
tisoz
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Nov 30 2005, 12:44 PM)
A spirit's form is what it looks like not what it is.  A Spirit is simply a collection of mana that possesses sapience and something resembling sentience (It is questionable if Unnamed spirits possess actual sentience or not.)  .

When a spirit materializes it creates substance in a basic predeternimed shape and a shape is all that the material form is.  Spirit with a human form appears to be human on the outside but its true nature should be obvious on the inside. It has no blood and no organs. Bullets are likely to pass through it without causing harm because there is nothing in there to damage.

Likewise,  spirit in the form [of] a rat simply has the shape of a rat. It doesn't have the attributes of a rat. It has its own strength, bo[d]y, and quickness which are independant of the arbitrary shape that it [h]as taken.

A spirit in the form of a hellhound would look like a hellound but it wouldn't have any powers.  Even if one argues that shape modifies damage code innate spells are all about the manipulation of mana just as normal spells are.

I agree. The problems arise when the shape provides modifiers independant of Attributes. Like having a troll form, does it grant a reach bonus? Or a bear, does it get natural armor?

QUOTE (The Stainless Steel Rat)

1) Should we allow the creation of an ally spirit that manifests as a Paranormal Creature with Paranormal Powers?

2) Should we allow Ally Spirits access to powers beyond the 7 listed in MITS?

1) I let it look like it, but that does not mean it works like it. They are forms. The rules plainly state the ally only looks like the form, not that it gets its attributes, properties or powers.

2) When they become free spirits.

or, house rule to your hearts content.

If you really want to open a can of worms, does an ally get a language for free or should its master have to purchase languages for it?
The Stainless Steel Rat
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
A spirit's form is what it looks like not what it is. 


QUOTE (tisoz)
They are forms.  The rules plainly state the ally only looks like the form, not that it gets its attributes, properties or powers.



Why do you guys keep repeating this like it is some alien concept that I am unable to fathom? I understand entirely that a spirit that has manifest itself as (in this case) a Hell Hound is not, in fact, actually a Hell Hound. I did not mean to imply that I believed this, nor do I think I stated such.

What I am asking (and I am fully aware that this is outside canon) is for opinions on allowing a conjurer to design an Ally Spirit with powers beyond the 7 listed in MITS, perhaps even powers normally associated with paranormal critters.

Aside from the Forms they take and the spells they know, one Ally Spirit is pretty much like any other - especially when compared to vast array of other spirits that exist. I think allowing them access to other powers would help flesh them out and personalize them to the player.

So, what are your views on allowing any changes? Would you alter the cost of the Ally? How?
The Stainless Steel Rat
QUOTE (tisoz @ Nov 30 2005, 03:39 PM)
The problems arise when the shape provides modifiers independant of Attributes.  Like having a troll form, does it grant a reach bonus?  Or a bear, does it get natural armor?

....

If you really want to open a can of worms, does an ally get a language for free or should its master have to purchase languages for it?

Great Questions both, and I hope somebody with more knowledge than me answers them for us.

As far as language skills, I would say that much like sorcery the Ally gets the skill equal to it's creator's for free.

Now does that start applying to ALL knowledge skills?
tisoz
QUOTE (The Stainless Steel Rat)
Why do you guys keep repeating this like it is some alien concept that I am unable to fathom? I understand entirely that a spirit that has manifest itself as (in this case) a Hell Hound is not, in fact, actually a Hell Hound. I did not mean to imply that I believed this, nor do I think I stated such.

What I am asking (and I am fully aware that this is outside canon) is for opinions on allowing a conjurer to design an Ally Spirit with powers beyond the 7 listed in MITS, perhaps even powers normally associated with paranormal critters.


Then make it plain that you are asking for help developing a house rule, not trying to pull an end run around the rules.
The Stainless Steel Rat
Well, I guess I started this thread asking for help regarding the canon rules, then when it became apparent that nobody really knew what the canon rule was I changed tracks into the house-rule realm.

To make things clear perhaps I should have started a new thread.

Perhaps I should do that now...
tisoz
QUOTE (The Stainless Steel Rat)
when it became apparent that nobody really knew what the canon rule was ...

It is not a question of knowing the rules, the problem is the rules do not cover a lot about allies. We have tried to convey the parts that do apply and the limits those parts entail. And tried to extrapolate answers for you within those limits.

Even the MitS author breaks his own rules in his own SR novel (or fails to describe anything about the moped-like performance of his hot set of wheels).

I dislike the widest possible interpretation of the rules for game balance's sake. An ally is already a powerful addition to a magician - just the Aid Power power is worth the karma of creating one. Letting them take the form and function of any object for 1 karma would be a gamebreaker.

Even within the rules, they can help the magician alleviate focus addiction in a couple of ways. They can cast a sustained spell and sustain it in lieu of a sustaining focus, or they could be present when a sustaining focus is created and the creator can pay the karma to bond it to the ally (the master could even pay the creator nuyen.gif 5K/karma point).
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (The Stainless Steel Rat)
2) Should we allow Ally Spirits access to powers beyond the 7 listed in MITS?

There's a reference somewhere to some mages who know a metamagic that allows them to create ally spirits with ... I think it was the fear power or something like that. It is (or was at least) in Ancient History's big book of metamagics. I haven't checked his site recently, but it should be there.
The Stainless Steel Rat
QUOTE (Ancient Histoy's Metamagics Page @ under "Rare Techniques")

• Metamagical techniques used by Inuit and Aleut angatkuq to give tupilak ally spirits the powers of Accident and Fear.
[Target: Wastelands]


Hmm... So at the very least it is canon to give additional powers to NPC's Ally Spirits, and making the summoner learn the techniques as metamagics is a pretty damn good idea.

Thanks for the heads-up Herald!


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