Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: The UN?
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Lord Ben
Is the UN still around?
hyzmarca
The UN is still around but it is essentially the Corporate Court's scantilly clad cabanna boy. It exists to provide the big 10 with various illicit favors and look good doing so.
Drace
but appearantly is trying to break away, atleast thats the jist I got from LA
Grinder
LA offers a lot of plot hooks within the UN and gave a much-needed update to the organization.
FrankTrollman
In a strong disconnect between Loose Alliances and Shadows of Asia, India is apparently a monolithic magical force of near on a billion people in SoA, but doesn't rate being in the security council in LA. :shrug:

However, with Amazonia having a seat on the security council, the blue helmets won't be going everywhere that the corporate court wants them.

-Frank
Grinder
It's not like the UN security counsil is made of all major players in the world. Like today wink.gif
Oracle
What I don't remember anymore: Is that stupid "veto"-rule still there?
Synner
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 30 2005, 10:33 AM)
In a strong disconnect between Loose Alliances and Shadows of Asia, India is apparently a monolithic magical force of near on a billion people in SoA, but doesn't rate being in the security council in LA. :shrug:

India in SoA is a multi-faceted ethnic patchwork united by a very peculiar breed of nationalism grounded in a principle of simultaneous theological and cultural multiplicity and unity (ie. Hindu nationalism) - in fact, quite similar to the India of today. I don't remember writing anything about India being an Awakened nation, a magical superpower or particularly magical in perspective, actually I seem to remember writing it the otherway round (ie. magic was taken in stride and didn't change much). Reference?

The two most significant thorns in the side of national unity have been resolved (Kashmir and Sikh autonomy) and most of what remains are autonomous and independentist movements based in not-representative of minorities that add up to less than 3% of the overall Indian population (again much like today, with the exceptions of the Sikh, Kashmir and Muslim situations).

Like Grinder said its not like the UN Security Counsel is made of all the major players in the world (much like today), but in this case India's absence is fully justified by the fact that India was undergoing a period of self-imposed international isolation and national grief when the UN was reformed. Its openning to the world since the 50's explains the rise of a Secretary General (facts addressed in SoA's India timeline IIRC - currently away from my book).
blakkie
QUOTE
In a strong disconnect between Loose Alliances and Shadows of Asia,


India in SoA didn't read like a monolithic state at all. It was more like a mixed bag that hadn't broken open. In the same way that you wouldn't consider Seattle monolithic, where there lots of groups running aronud ganking each other. Only at a larger scale. But nobody is pissed off enough to upset the apple cart, everyone has enough space to do their thing.

This is also why they aren't a big player outside the country. If someone or something had that much pull to even attempt marching Inida off in a given united direction it would all fall apart. That would make LA and SoA oddly consistant in the treatment of India, no?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (synner)
Reference?


QUOTE
Despite its self-imposed isolation, India hasn't stood still in time, but rather has embraced the powers-that-be of the Sixth World


QUOTE
Both faiths came out strengthened, particularly Hinduism, which flourished as people looked to spirituality for explanations and cathartic release. ... The revival of the caste system is just the obvious sign


QUOTE
Genetics have upset the Hindu paradigm, but with characteristic resilience Indians simply "promoted" low-born Awakened into brahmin extended families by adoption.


QUOTE
Ashuras (spirits) conjured by brahmin magicians manipulate the weather and because of this the water supply problems and seasonal droughts have been assuaged.


Right... so while every single other major country on Earth fell apart, India promoted its nine and a half million Awakened into its ruling elite, where they now control politics and the weather. They have six times the magicians of the next largest country, and they are a magocratic democracy. WTF?

Now, I realize that you think you made a plausible India. And you did. There is a very real chance that countries would come out that way from the Awakening. But no other country in the Shadowrun world did. India is the only major country that has come out stronger from the big shakedowns. Remember: the most objectively unified country on the planet (The United States: highest rate of voluntary tax payment in human history) collapsed. Russia collapsed even more than it already has. Deutschland collapsed. China collapsed. India... promoted nigh on ten million magically active people into upper management and stayed together.

Again and again it has been established in Shadowrun literature that the major super powers of the Shadowrun world are:

Amazonia (Brazil+)
Aztlan (Mexico+)
Imperial Japan (Japan+)
UCAS (Half of the old US)

with honorable mentions going to Turkey, AGS, the Canton Confederation, and the United Kingdom.

The India you wrote up is larger and stronger than any two of those countries together, and amounts to nothing less than a major retcon of the setting.

-Frank
Grinder
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

Right... so while every single other major country on Earth fell apart, India promoted its nine and a half million Awakened into its ruling elite, where they now control politics and the weather. They have six times the magicians of the next largest country, and they are a magocratic democracy. WTF?

Imo 9.5 millions out of 1.6 billion people being magically active sounds resonable to me.
It's nowher mentioned how many magicians are in the diverse chinese countries ,but i would guess there will be a similar rate/number.
Antimuppet
Didn't the VITAS Plagues do a serious number on India and China?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Antimuppet)
Didn't the VITAS Plagues do a serious number on India and China?

Yes. A quarter of the overall world population died off, but those countries lost about a third. Which means that the rest of the world lost closer to 19% of its population. So India and China lost more than half again their share of people during the Vitas plague.

Which isn't even close to the amount of population that the non-India big name players lost due to fracturing into smaller countries. Of the big five countries (in terms of population): China shattered, The United States shattered, Indonesia shattered, Russia lost several large chunks.

-Frank
Synner
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 30 2005, 06:53 PM)
QUOTE (synner)
Reference?
QUOTE
Despite its self-imposed isolation, India hasn't stood still in time, but rather has embraced the powers-that-be of the Sixth World

QUOTE
Both faiths came out strengthened, particularly Hinduism, which flourished as people looked to spirituality for explanations and cathartic release. ... The revival of the caste system is just the obvious sign

QUOTE
Genetics have upset the Hindu paradigm, but with characteristic resilience Indians simply "promoted" low-born Awakened into brahmin extended families by adoption.

QUOTE
Ashuras (spirits) conjured by brahmin magicians manipulate the weather and because of this the water supply problems and seasonal droughts have been assuaged.

QUOTE
Right... so while every single other major country on Earth fell apart, India promoted its nine and a half million Awakened into its ruling elite, where they now control politics and the weather. They have six times the magicians of the next largest country, and they are a magocratic democracy. WTF?

I think I see your problem. Maybe it isn't explained clearly. You're assuming the brahmin are a ruling caste. That isn't true. A basic primer to the caste system underlines that it is a social, cultural and religious structure. Their power was never meant to be secular or official (though they inevitably wield significant power in those fields). Their status is cultural/religious. Magic is taken in stride not seen as something separate from the mundane - either by the Hindu magician or the mundane.

Best estimates place the Brahmin caste numbers at around 8% of the current day population of India (no official figures exist as the official census carefully avoid any such reference). While no longer accorded any legal preference a brahmin (even a poor one) is still offered social deference in face of another otherwise equal lower caste individual (and more job opportunities, better placements, career perspectives in the civil service, media, etc). Significantly they control a fair section of the economic power in the country (not so much as 50 years ago but still pretty significant). A section of the India chapter suggests that with the whitling provided by Plague years the numbers of brahmin have increased disproportionately to a normal evoultion. By 206x, I'd say we're looking at 15% of the Indian population belonging to Brahmin extended families, that's including the 1% of Awakened, if they were all "promoted" - which still allows for exceptions (some may become saddhu or yogis that transcend the caste system and the casteless would never be adopted, magic or not).

The India I wrote is very clearly not a brahmin oligarchy, let alone a magocracy (in fact there are several muslims mentioned in government). An Awakened brahmin is accorded the same respect as a mundane brahmin because these are already at the pinnacle of karmic evolution (next step up is demi-godhood).

QUOTE
Now, I realize that you think you made a plausible India. And you did. There is a very real chance that countries would come out that way from the Awakening. But no other country in the Shadowrun world did. India is the only major country that has come out stronger from the big shakedowns.

This is incorrect. Brazil and Mexico also came out stronger.

QUOTE
Remember: the most objectively unified country on the planet (The United States: highest rate of voluntary tax payment in human history) collapsed. Russia collapsed even more than it already has. Deutschland collapsed. China collapsed.

As I've mentioned above, there are several multi-ethnic/multi-religious major countries which not only survived intact, but thrived and expanded: Brazil/Amazonia, Mexico, France... different cultures, different circumstances, different results. I see no reason why things should happen the same way the world over when they seldom do in real life.

QUOTE
India... promoted nigh on ten million magically active people into upper management and stayed together.

The thing to understand is that from an Indian perspective no one was "promoted". They were simply recognized/accorded their birthright and even then they are only promoted socially/culturally. There is no mental or social stigma attached. Brahmin have great social and religious influence, and consequently economic and political clout, but they are not rulers (not in 206x and not traditionally - they were the priest class not the ruling one). While their birthright equates to much better career opportunities and social standing it does not equate to automatic secular power. In fact they have obligations to the lower castes, including using their higher karmic status (and magic) in defense of the faithful and upkeeping the traditions and rites of the hindu faith.

QUOTE
Again and again it has been established in Shadowrun literature that the major super powers of the Shadowrun world are:
Amazonia (Brazil+)
Aztlan (Mexico+)
Imperial Japan (Japan+)
UCAS (Half of the old US)
with honorable mentions going to Turkey, AGS, the Canton Confederation, and the United Kingdom.
The India you wrote up is larger and stronger than any two of those countries together, and amounts to nothing less than a major retcon of the setting.

As someone already mentioned it all depends on whether India has, not only the power but the will to act internationally. For all its economic power today, it's still listed by the UN as a developing nation in a number of fields and it has precious little political influence. I wrote very little to suggest profound changes in those regard in 206x. Its internal difficulties (and by that I don't mean the separatist movements) are one of the reasons India has never coalesced as an international political power (at least after the disappearance of the non-alligned nations movement), so no changes there.
6thDragon
Another thread hijacked...I love it.

Even with many of the former major powers being shattered, I would hardly call the India in SoA a super-power. I have lived in India for a considerable amount of time in the past and I can say India today has none of the characteristics that make a nation a superpower; with the possible exception of nuclear weapons. India of SoA, would still lack a strong economy (look at the poverty rate in India), it's military is not overly strong, and lacks the technological superiority. I would say the UCAS and imperial Japan would be at least twice as powerful militarily. Even many of the European countries are still a match to India. Just because a nation has a large population and a lot of magician does not make them a superpower. I don't remember anything about it in the SoA chapter, but you really need to see how pervasive corruption is in India today. It has always been that way, and will continue to be that way. The corruption affects their businesses and how their population views their government. It is overall a huge drain on the system.

Also, I've been playing shadowrun since second edition, and have always been under the assumption that, generally speaking, the percentage of magically active is about 1% of the population. I wish I remember which book I read that in. Must have been either the MitS, one of the grimoires, or a core book. Can anyone help me here?
Azralon
QUOTE (6thDragon)
Also, I've been playing shadowrun since second edition, and have always been under the assumption that, generally speaking, the percentage of magically active is about 1% of the population. I wish I remember which book I read that in. Must have been either the MitS, one of the grimoires, or a core book. Can anyone help me here?

I think it's MitS, but I don't have mine with me to confirm.

However the percentage is slowly growing, according to my likewise unreferenced and vague memory.
Drace
I think there was something about that also mentioned in YotC, talking about surges in mana spikes causeing more awakened metas, and over time, the levels rise naturally, causing more awakened.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (6thDragon)
Also, I've been playing shadowrun since second edition, and have always been under the assumption that, generally speaking, the percentage of magically active is about 1% of the population. I wish I remember which book I read that in. Must have been either the MitS, one of the grimoires, or a core book. Can anyone help me here?

Grimoire, p. 10
Awakenings, p. 9
MitS, p. 28

While the fluff text has said that the number of magicians is increasing, the quoted number of magicians is copy-pasted from edition to edition and will probably be the same in Street Magic as well. So really, the number of magicians is not increasing at all. :shrug:

The world of Shadowrun has 6.5 Billion people in it, and thus has 65 Million magically active people. And 10 million of them are in the nation of India.

-Frank
emo samurai
I also read it in the Tir Tairngire and Aztlan sourcebooks. They're both magically active nations with higher-than average magician ratios, and the 1% thing was mentioned there.
blakkie
With a value of 1% and precision to 1 digit you can nearly double the number without it changing. wink.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (blakkie)
With a value of 1% and precision to 1 digit you can nearly double the number without it changing. wink.gif

Of course, if one were to express the value in modulo 2 arithmitic than 1% = 99%
Grinder
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
The world of Shadowrun has 6.5 Billion people in it, and thus has 65 Million magically active people. And 10 million of them are in the nation of India.

How many people are living in India according to SoA? ~1 billion, so a rough sixth of the world. Makes sense then that a rough sixth of all magicians are found there wink.gif
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Grinder)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Dec 1 2005, 12:10 AM)
The world of Shadowrun has 6.5 Billion people in it, and thus has 65 Million magically active people. And 10 million of them are in the nation of India.

How many people are living in India according to SoA? ~1 billion, so a rough sixth of the world. Makes sense then that a rough sixth of all magicians are found there wink.gif

Of course a sixth of all the world's magicians are found there. The point is that every other country that was in danger of having that kind of power was chopped up into little pieces. India is a 500 pound gorilla, and all previous sourcebooks ignored the area as meaningless.

There's no Vedicorp in the AAAs. There's no tirades about how such and such an event only holds until the sleeping giant of India decides to punch someone in the nuts, India was as much a non-concern to previous Shadowrun books as Myanmar.

Shadows of Asia said that there was actually a massively large and powerful nation and a nuclear war that noone had ever talked about in previous books. Huh? In what way is that not a major retcon?

-Frank
SL James
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Dec 1 2005, 01:06 PM)
QUOTE (Grinder @ Dec 1 2005, 04:06 AM)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Dec 1 2005, 12:10 AM)
The world of Shadowrun has 6.5 Billion people in it, and thus has 65 Million magically active people. And 10 million of them are in the nation of India.

How many people are living in India according to SoA? ~1 billion, so a rough sixth of the world. Makes sense then that a rough sixth of all magicians are found there wink.gif

Of course a sixth of all the world's magicians are found there. The point is that every other country that was in danger of having that kind of power was chopped up into little pieces. India is a 500 pound gorilla, and all previous sourcebooks ignored the area as meaningless.

I actually think the gorilla metaphor is, in this case, quite apt.

QUOTE
You don't want to be an 800-pound gorilla. No such animal has ever existed. The average big daddy silverback tops out at about half that weight. And gorillas are not predators, but vegans, with an almost unlimited appetite for fruit and bamboo shoots. I once worked on a TV documentary about lowland gorillas; on an average day the dramatic episodes consisted of the alpha male passing gas, picking his nose and yawning. Then he did the same things, the other way around. Over and over. This is probably not the image a hard-charging executive wants to present to the public.
blakkie
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (Grinder @ Dec 1 2005, 04:06 AM)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Dec 1 2005, 12:10 AM)
The world of Shadowrun has 6.5 Billion people in it, and thus has 65 Million magically active people. And 10 million of them are in the nation of India.

How many people are living in India according to SoA? ~1 billion, so a rough sixth of the world. Makes sense then that a rough sixth of all magicians are found there wink.gif

Of course a sixth of all the world's magicians are found there. The point is that every other country that was in danger of having that kind of power was chopped up into little pieces. India is a 500 pound gorilla, and all previous sourcebooks ignored the area as meaningless.

There's no Vedicorp in the AAAs. There's no tirades about how such and such an event only holds until the sleeping giant of India decides to punch someone in the nuts, India was as much a non-concern to previous Shadowrun books as Myanmar.

It isn't so much when the Gorrila wakes up, as when the Gorrila manages to shake off the schizophrenic so that he is able to put mind to task. It basically has been a non-player since it has stayed at home gazing deeply into it's navel. Of course the nature of the situation is such that anyone that did try direct India in such a way would very likely cause it to shatter just like all those other examples (China, Russian/Soviets, USA, etc.). So it is effectively self crippled just like the rest. *shrug*

Now you are put off because this hasn't all been mentioned before? *shrug* That's a curious side-effect of having source material written in subjective voice towards a specific topic. Centering on something and ignoring what -you- see as something bigger tends to be easier to explain by IC author bias.
Synner
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Shadows of Asia said that there was actually a massively large and powerful nation and a nuclear war that noone had ever talked about in previous books. Huh? In what way is that not a major retcon?

It all boils down to what you define as powerful.

Even the most populous nation on Earth is powerless if it lacks political will, cohesion and direction. The problem in India is not minority separatist or autonomist movements its the fact that all government energy is devoted to just keeping the system from collapsing - those are only the surface implications of the level of corruption and lack of an overarching national agenda. India will never be a superpower until its central authorities can get their collective head above water for a decent amount of time and stop worrying about just keeping things going. It is not a sleeping giant. It is a fully awake giant hobbled by its own weight.

For the past 20 years Indian governments have taken the long term view, deciding that since they can't get their heads above water they'll build an educational infrastructure that will provide the next generation with a solid economic and technical foundation that they will be able to do so. Unfortunately for them in the SR timeline a large portion of that generation is wiped out by VITAS I and II, just as India is coming into its own. Significantly nobody helps India out during the crisis which sparks isolationism and nationalism, both tinged by the Hindu revival (as opposed to dozens of other religions/faiths/ethnicites). Then what was left of India's tech industry and educational programs are hit by the first Crash (and now the second), sending the tech sector crashing... (this is suggested in MCB-Axis section).

Having the most mages is irrelevant if they don't act concertedly or have a common agenda which is the case in India. It has simply chosen to look inward for the better part of the 21st century and even when its started openning up its found that its not geared to compete with the true powers of the world - which to get this thread back on track may be why the Secretary General of the UN has an agenda of his own.

BTW- The nuclear exchange was originally mentioned in T:WL. You wouldn't call it a war any more than the exchange between Libya and Israel was a "war", and in this case officially it was rogue army officers that started it and both sides want it swept it under the rug.
6thDragon
Another way to look at India's abundance of mages would be to call it another kind of brain drain. Another problem that India today faces. All the educated professionals are all trying to get visas to English speaking countries. I think in SR India's case, this could very well happen with mages. That's an interesting twist I might start using. I'm sure lots of wagemage recruiters are offering corporate citizenship to Indian mages. I never thought of it like that until now.
RunnerPaul
I'm sorry, we're going to have to lay you off. We've outsourced our Astral Security to a Conjuration Center in India.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
I'm sorry, we're going to have to lay you off. We've outsourced our Astral Security to a Conjuration Center in India.

... But they are halfway around the world! They'll have a response time of thirty minutes!

-Frank
RunnerPaul
You misunderstand. We don't rely on the India mages themselves for the security. Instead, we use the spirits they summon, which remain on site.
FrankTrollman
See, that requires the kind of foresight and attention to detail that the corporations of today just don't have. If they'll outsource customer service positions to a land where the people speak a different dialect of English, they'll export everything.

As is, if conjurers want to patrol with unbound spirits (and they do if they don't want to cough up hundreds of nuyen a day on conjuring materials), they need to be on site, or send unbound spirits on remote service.

-Frank
Grinder
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
You misunderstand. We don't rely on the India mages themselves for the security. Instead, we use the spirits they summon, which remain on site.

If you take the advanced security package the spirits are capabale of understanding your native tongue.
Azralon
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
I'm sorry, we're going to have to lay you off. We've outsourced our Astral Security to a Conjuration Center in India.

Fraggin' hilarious. smile.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012