Full Version: "Decrease Willpower" spell
| QUOTE (p200) |
| Note that decreasing an attribute may affect other derived statistics (Decrease Intuition also affects Initiative, for example, while Decrease Willpower will remove boxes from the character’s Stun Condition Monitor for as long as the spell lasts). |
Okay, so let's say I knock a guy unconscious with sufficient application of Stunbolt. He's an average human with a Willpower of 3, so he has 10 boxes in his Stun track. I've filled that up exactly (no Physical overflow) and he's knocked out.
I want to Mind Probe him, so while he's out I throw a Decrease Willpower on him as a preliminary debuff. I get 4 hits and he gets 1 for a net success of 3 hits. This drops his Willpower down to zero, meaning even after he wakes up from his Stun damage (which will take longer now), he's still going to be peacefully drooling. I proceed to Mind Probe him without resistance.
Fun, eh? But a question arises: What happens to his damage taken? When I gave him a Willpower of 0, I dropped his Stun track to a maximum of 8 boxes. He had 10 filled up. Does this mean 2 points of it shifts over into Physical? Do they become "virtual" boxes that are still Stun but don't show up on the normal track (kinda like "Stun overflow")?
Common sense approach: Stun damage already taken wouldn't 'become' physical just by reducing willpower, especially if he's unconsious.
Game balance approach: That damage oughta go somewhere.
Speed gaming approach: Keeping track of yet another damage monitor is a Bad Thing.
So, we have a dilemma. Personally I'd simply take the Will 0 guy out of combat at this point, and keep him unconsious for at least the time it would take to recover his Will back to 3 and most of that stun damage. But I'm a sucker for snap judgement.
Game balance approach: That damage oughta go somewhere.
Speed gaming approach: Keeping track of yet another damage monitor is a Bad Thing.
So, we have a dilemma. Personally I'd simply take the Will 0 guy out of combat at this point, and keep him unconsious for at least the time it would take to recover his Will back to 3 and most of that stun damage. But I'm a sucker for snap judgement.
Decrease Willpower is sustained, so either the mage is keeping him drooling, or not.
As for what to do with the Stun, to my eye "common sense", "balance", and "speed" are all served by just leaving the Stun track as is. No need to make up rules to transfer Stun over to Physical (because with the current rules that happens when you take damage, not retro actively). The Stun boxes can recover slowly eventually reaching 7 boxes. If the spell continues to be sustained, at that point he switches from being unconcious to totally confused.
As for what to do with the Stun, to my eye "common sense", "balance", and "speed" are all served by just leaving the Stun track as is. No need to make up rules to transfer Stun over to Physical (because with the current rules that happens when you take damage, not retro actively). The Stun boxes can recover slowly eventually reaching 7 boxes. If the spell continues to be sustained, at that point he switches from being unconcious to totally confused.
Also, I do not believe Stunbolts and Balls cross over into Physical. Or at least they didn't in 3rd edition, according to a couple of Q&A sessions with the Fanpro peeps.
Nothing I've seen in SR4 suggests that. Stun spells do Stun damage, and too much Stun damage will bleed over into the Physical column.
I suspect the spell is basically mental trauma of sorts - eventually it'll kill someone if you 'traumatize' them enough.
So lowering their willpower would lower their bodies ability to tolerate trauma, and thus using the spell would mean the stun track takes on a temporary bleed over they recover from normally, or it jumps to the physical track until the attribute is restored (until then, it counts towards causing death).
So lowering their willpower would lower their bodies ability to tolerate trauma, and thus using the spell would mean the stun track takes on a temporary bleed over they recover from normally, or it jumps to the physical track until the attribute is restored (until then, it counts towards causing death).
stunbolt will reduce thier stun track, already existing damage doesn't overflow because at the time the damage was incured the stun track was large enough at the time (overflow only happens if the stun isn't large enough to accomadate the current stun)
Any stun after decrease will will cause phsycial though
Any stun after decrease will will cause phsycial though
Sure, Liper, but what happens to the 2 boxes of Stun that now exceed the Stun track's capacity? That's the trick.
So far I've been reluctantly inclined to keep those two boxes as Stun damage which just doesn't show up on the track. They'd still need to be healed before the target woke up (meaning 3 boxes removed rather than 1, in the original example).
So far I've been reluctantly inclined to keep those two boxes as Stun damage which just doesn't show up on the track. They'd still need to be healed before the target woke up (meaning 3 boxes removed rather than 1, in the original example).
| QUOTE (Azralon @ Dec 2 2005, 09:11 AM) |
| Sure, Liper, but what happens to the 2 boxes of Stun that now exceed the Stun track's capacity? That's the trick. So far I've been reluctantly inclined to keep those two boxes as Stun damage which just doesn't show up on the track. They'd still need to be healed before the target woke up (meaning 3 boxes removed rather than 1, in the original example). |
They still show up on the track. They just sit above the new, temporary cutoff line for dropping unconcious. You don't actually alter the number of boxes on the track for a sustain spell?
And yes, i'd require that they be healed as per usual even if the spell continued to be sustained.
EDIT:
Is that really "canon"? Nah, it's a soft house rule. Something that isn't directly addressed by the rules, so any ruling is a house rule. But it is fairly easy to extrapolate to it (even if there are other roughly equally close extrapolations), and it seems to mostly follow the spirit of the rules. *shrug*
You do for as long as the spell lasts. RAW.
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| You do for as long as the spell lasts. RAW. |
No, i mean physically remove the outline of the boxes from the character sheet.
The point is not how to physically represent the damage on paper. The point is how to mechanically apply the damage (which is then represented on the paper as appropriate).
| QUOTE (Azralon @ Dec 2 2005, 12:37 PM) |
| The point is not how to physically represent the damage on paper. The point is how to mechanically apply the damage (which is then represented on the paper as appropriate). |
.... which is a soft house rule territory, and by just leaving them there IMO it satisfies "common sense", "balance", and "speed".
P.S. Removing the boxes of Stun damage from the track itself would seem to directly contradict:
| QUOTE (page 199) |
| No techniques currently known to magic can erase Stun damage.... |
Yes. Thanks for catching up to the rest of us.
| QUOTE (Azralon @ Dec 2 2005, 12:54 PM) |
| Yes. Thanks for catching up to the rest of us. |
Catch up with you how? But finally getting through to you that what you are doing is fine and about as close to canon as there is for the situation?It's not like you, or anyone else so far, explicitly mentioned that as a reason for keeping the Stun boxes as Stun above the temporarily lowered track?
EDIT: Thanks for the appreciation for the help!!!
There's just no practical reason to have a conversation with Blakkie, is there?
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| There's just no practical reason to have a conversation with Blakkie, is there? |
Not if you are going to come up with wacked out gems like this:
| QUOTE |
| Yes. Thanks for catching up to the rest of us. |
Exactly WTF was your reasoning for that comment????
My reading is that nothing happens to the stun damage. It sits there, it's still stun damage, it's not removed, it's not transferred to the physical track, they just have taken slightly more stun damage than their willpower would allow and they should be glad of it.
Now obviously the character can't recover when his willpower is 0, but lets say that the mage had to drop the spell to frag some goons the corp sent to get their researcher back. He then re-casts the spell before the unconcious guy has time to recover at-all, but unbeknownst to him only manages to reduce his willpower to 1 (his stun track is now 9 long, with 10 points of damage on it). He now has a chance to recover the damage slowly, but to regain conciousness now he'll need to recover 2 points of stun damage (8 points of damage on a 9-long track).
Now obviously the character can't recover when his willpower is 0, but lets say that the mage had to drop the spell to frag some goons the corp sent to get their researcher back. He then re-casts the spell before the unconcious guy has time to recover at-all, but unbeknownst to him only manages to reduce his willpower to 1 (his stun track is now 9 long, with 10 points of damage on it). He now has a chance to recover the damage slowly, but to regain conciousness now he'll need to recover 2 points of stun damage (8 points of damage on a 9-long track).
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| There's just no practical reason to have a conversation with Blakkie, is there? |
I've been saying so for months now.
| QUOTE (Critias) | ||
I've been saying so for months now. |
Hey, I like blakkie. He seems like a nice guy, and he's funny.
I never said he was a bad guy, or I don't like him, or he's not funny. I just said there's no real reason to have a conversation with him.
| QUOTE (Critias) | ||
I've been saying so for months now. |
If only we could find some sort of commonality between this:
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| Yes. Thanks for catching up to the rest of us. |
... and your posts. Some sort of...pattern. It might help shed some sort of light on things....
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