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nick012000
1. Create a Force 1 ranged weapon focus (thowing knives or shuriken would be best, because you can easily regain them)
2. Bind a free spirit
3. Order the spirit into the focus.
4. Give the Spirit enough Karma to bind the focus
5. Order the spirit to bind the focus

So, you get a magically-active weapon focus that still works when you throw it. Sure, you won't get the benefit of the extra dice when you attack with it, but that's why it's only Force 1. A nice way to take out those pesky spirits from a safe distance, too.
Chibu
Sure, but, going around binding Free Spirits is also a quick way to get yourself geeked. You'd better make sure you have a good lawyer write up your binding contract for you, or you'll be sorry when the spirit hires someone to kill you.

Assuming your contract is infallible. There are plenty of Free Spiris out there who would kill you for enslaving another spirit. Many crazy mages as well (I cite my current character, Nightshade, if you dont' know abouthim, do a search and you'll probibly find something).

Also, If you're good enough to bind a free spirit (one that whatever you're attacking can't just banish anyway) Then, why are you scared about attacking another spitir head on? Yes, I'd love to have a ranged focus, as the character I play uses throwing knives (and playing cards) as his promary weapon. However, current shodowrun magic doesn't allow for it, even though there is Earthdawn precidence for it.


Other than that, yeah, that would work great ^-^. Pretty good idea actually, were it not for my character's view on spirits, I would probibly start making one tonight when we're playing >_<
Liper
Why not just get gel rounds filled with fab?

One aura smashing into another at 1000fps should have roughly the same effect as a regular round smashing into a regular person=p

But I guess you'd have issues of the fabs aura not having enough force of will behind to to overcome the spirits, so anchor some spells like say force 6 or higher into each bullet and fire em, hell just make a astral ward on each bullet that's force 6 but only takes up a .45 mill area =p
spotlite
FAB bullets... I suggested those on another thread and got shot down. Can't remember why now. I still like the idea.
hyzmarca
Because astral forms have no mass. Hitting an Astral Form with FAB bullets is equivilant to hiting a spirit with nothing. It would be more effetive to put the fab in an arasol spray and make sure it is strain III.

Binding a force 1 spirit energy 1 free spirit is trivial for any competent conjurer and simple for the incompetent and the mundane. The only difficulty is learning its true name.

Since a spirit that weak would quickly be disrupted or destroyed in combat having it inhabit a weapon focus is the best way to make it useful if it doesn't have hidden life or wealth. If it has one or both of these the best way to make it useful is to give you immortality and/or make you rich.
nezumi
That said, you COULD hypothetically (with some work) make a taser weapon focus. At chargen it would cost an arm and a leg, but if you're making it yourself it's a lot more managable pricewise. The tough part is crafting a 'difficult technological item'. But when you're done, you have a range of about 20-30 feet, I believe.
spotlite
That. Is. An. ASTONISHINGLY good idea. I insist this thread be purged before my players find it... wink.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (spotlite @ Dec 2 2005, 09:00 AM)
That. Is. An. ASTONISHINGLY good idea. I insist this thread be purged before my players find it... wink.gif

The real problem with this set up is that you wouldn't use your throwing weapon skill to attack astral forms. Instead the spirit would use its edged weapon or sorcery (astral combat) skill. For a force 1 spirit energy 1 spirit this would be a piddly 2 dice unless you invested karma to train it.

However, you would still use your throwing weapons skill against pysical forms, which makes things fairly confusing against dual-natured beings, especially those that are more vulnerable to weapon foci, such as shapeshifters.

Also, unless the Free Spirit has masking any astral being could slaughter it without materializing. Ans lts not forget Wards. They would murder such a low force spirit.

Also, you'd have to bind multiple spirits if you intended to attack more than once.

If you go around binding multiple Force 1 spirits the immortality suite that comes with Hidden Life is a much better investment than some piddly focus. Immunity to Age and Regeneration are good at any force. Just bind Force 1 Free spirits untill you get one with Hidden Life and then keep that one at home while you go out and try to catch bullets in your teeth. You won't succeed but you won't die from the wound, either.

toturi
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (spotlite @ Dec 2 2005, 09:00 AM)
That. Is. An. ASTONISHINGLY good idea. I insist this thread be purged before my players find it... wink.gif

The real problem with this set up is that you wouldn't use your throwing weapon skill to attack astral forms. Instead the spirit would use its edged weapon or sorcery (astral combat) skill. For a force 1 spirit energy 1 spirit this would be a piddly 2 dice unless you invested karma to train it.

However, you would still use your throwing weapons skill against pysical forms, which makes things fairly confusing against dual-natured beings, especially those that are more vulnerable to weapon foci, such as shapeshifters.

Also, unless the Free Spirit has masking any astral being could slaughter it without materializing. Ans lts not forget Wards. They would murder such a low force spirit.

Also, you'd have to bind multiple spirits if you intended to attack more than once.

If you go around binding multiple Force 1 spirits the immortality suite that comes with Hidden Life is a much better investment than some piddly focus. Immunity to Age and Regeneration are good at any force. Just bind Force 1 Free spirits untill you get one with Hidden Life and then keep that one at home while you go out and try to catch bullets in your teeth. You won't succeed but you won't die from the wound, either.

Actually, I think spotlite's refering to the taser weapon focus as the good idea (since the taser dart is linked to the wire and the wire is linked to the gun and the gun is touching your hand).
spotlite
QUOTE
Actually, I think spotlite's refering to the taser weapon focus as the good idea (since the taser dart is linked to the wire and the wire is linked to the gun and the gun is touching your hand).


Yup.
TheHappyAnarchist
What about the idea of putting Force 6 wards on the bullets. That sounds promising.
Tear a chunk out of the spirit.
What happens to a spirit if a ward is "raised" with it on both sides? Does it get damaged, cut to half force, or form two little spirits, what?
Gerald Fitzgerald
Why not do the following:

Get a cyber hand and combine it with the "grapple gun" enhancement. That way your hand can shoot off of your body and go significantly farther than 20 or 30 feet.

Get Death Touch. Since you paid essence for the hand, you can put spells through it. And since your hand is launching across the room, you can use touch spells at range.

Learn a Free Spirits true name or something.

Force the free spirit to bond with YOU. It does some wacky thing where half of it's force is added to your attributes or something and plus you gain some of it's magic or whatever. Not sure about this one. But, basically, this would make you dual natured yourself, meaning you could use your ranged touch-only hand spells and kill a dragon instantly with no repercussions.

That right, I said drop a dragon instantly. Instantly in one hit that dragon will be dead BOOM. And then you get everything in his horse and there will be no repercussions, that's right, I said NO REPERCUSSIONS!

Or something.
Chibu
uh, except that the dragon can make you re-roll all of your successes. they're fun like that.

however, shat stops you from doing the 'grapple' thing with any other throwing weapon?


Just have a piece of fishing line (like, really strong fishing line) as part of the weapon and have it ties around your wrist or something. you now have a retrievable, throwable, weapon focus. that can be launched at a spirit or something.

But, the cord has to actually be a part of the weapon methinks, and not just tied on after.
Foreigner
Chibu:

How about using one of the more traditional martial arts-style weapons in that fashion?

The Japanese chain weapons come to mind:

The manrikigusari: Essentially a Japanese/Okinawan flail, it's a length of chain, weighted at both ends, designed for entangling an opponent;

and:

the kusarigama: also a length of chain (originally a length of braided women's hair), with a metal ring at one end, and a sickle-shaped blade at the other (unlike a sickle, however, there is no handle on this portion; rather, the straight part is a double-edged blade, and the sickle part is also sharp, although I'm not certain if it's sharp on both the inner and outer curves of the blade). The weapon is actually wielded by holding the chain--the intent is to catch an opponent's arm or weapon with the ring, and pull him-her close enough to be dealt with using the blade. (Or so I seem to remember. smile.gif )

Another method that *might* work could be adapted from bowfishing (that's right, there *are* people who fish with a bow and arrow). Sometimes, the bow and arrow are linked by a spool of fishing line, to make recovery of the fish easier. A weapon focus made by connecting a spool of some form of fishing line (thin steel cable, perhaps, in the event that whatever you're "hunting" is on the strong side), joining the bow and arrow to one another. The Weapon Focus would thereby link the two as long as the wire remained intact.

Just a few suggestions. smile.gif

--Foreigner
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Gerald Fitzgerald)
Force the free spirit to bond with YOU. It does some wacky thing where half of it's force is added to your attributes or something and plus you gain some of it's magic or whatever. Not sure about this one. But, basically, this would make you dual natured yourself, meaning you could use your ranged touch-only hand spells and kill a dragon instantly with no repercussions.

That right, I said drop a dragon instantly. Instantly in one hit that dragon will be dead BOOM. And then you get everything in his horse and there will be no repercussions, that's right, I said NO REPERCUSSIONS!

Or something.

I fail to see how being dual-natured would help kill a dragon. In fact, being dual natured would almost certainly make the task of fighting a dragon much more difficult as it give the dragon many more options for attacking you. A Dragon would also have things like Shielding or worse, making a one-hit magic kill unlikely.

There are only two methods of bonding with a spirit, three if you include Cage of Bones. The canon ones are Hidden Life and a Spirit Pact. The former grants the full immunity suite and regeneration as well as Enhanced attributes and magical armor that protects against both weapons and spells. However, it does not increase magic. The latter I'm not so sure of. I would have to defer to someon emore knowledgable than I.

Either way, the only dragons you are going to kill instantly are the stupid and the pubecent. In either case, the chances of reprecussions are small. However, there is always a possibility to a vindictive Great Dragon coming after you if you kill the wrong wyvern.
The Stainless Steel Rat
Spirit Pact is described in MITS as only being available to magical threats (NPC's with Potency). At the time of the pact the threat receives a one-time boost to potency equal to half the Spirit's Spirit Energy, thereafter the two are linked, and any changes to the potency of the threat or the spirit energy of the Spirit changes the other at a one to one ratio.

In my current campaign I have a Threat and a Spirit who are very closely connected. They are bonded by BOTH Hidden Life and Sprit Pact, AND the threat channels the Spirit.

It may sound like overkill, but the group has four PC's with 15+ Karma Pools, and I have to bring it heavy to make them sweat.
warrior_allanon
actually there was a way in MITS, stacked focus with a detect enemy (1) and an anchored spell (5) giving you a force 6 expendable spell focus that when it hit your enemy or came within 1 meter of them would set off the spell
Liper
anchoring a ward to a round would net a resistance test each round per the force of the round as if a spirit was trying to go through a ward.

Wars on intrusion can damage a person (the aura even if bieng forced would be passing through the ward)

Anyone with a magic rating and ability to percieve the astral can create a ward.

Making say 200 astral wards on 200bullets while silly, would definatly kill a spirit due to rng. =p
TheHappyAnarchist
Would it push the spirit back if the spirit failed to overcome the ward?

That would be a neat way of keeping a spirit off your butt.
Push it back and then when it hits something alive (or the wall if it is materialized) then it takes damage when trying to break the ward.

Could be most nasty.
SpasticTeapot
A great weapon for this is the fishing-bow.
A fishing-bow is a bow which, as the name suggets, is used for fishing. Attached to the bow is a long reel of fishing line, which is attached to the arrows. (The arrows are often not fletched, but have rather nasty barbed heads.) When the bow is fired, you impale the fish, and can reel it in. Alternately, you can just snip off the fishing line from where you are and reload.
They sell kits for these at my local archery range.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Liper @ Dec 2 2005, 06:07 PM)
anchoring a ward to a round would net a resistance test each round per the force of the round as if a spirit was trying  to go through a ward.

Wars on intrusion can damage a person (the aura even if bieng forced would be passing through the ward)

Anyone with a magic rating and ability to percieve the astral can create a ward.

Making say 200 astral wards on 200bullets while silly, would definatly kill a spirit due to rng. =p

Assuming that the spirit doesn't move out of the way, which it will and assuming that you can put a ward on an object that moves realitive to the mana sphere, which may or may not be possible depending on the GM's interpertation of the warding rules.

Also, wards can't damage purely physical beings, only the astrally present. Aruas can pass through wards just as easily as light passes through glass.

QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist)
Would it push the spirit back if the spirit failed to overcome the ward?

That would be a neat way of keeping a spirit off your butt.
Push it back and then when it hits something alive (or the wall if it is materialized) then it takes damage when trying to break the ward.


Hitting a living thing won't stop an astral form in SR3. Auras are perfectly intangible.
Gerald Fitzgerald
IIRC, weapon focus cost an astronomical amount of karma and nuyen.gif depending on the reach. A +2 reach weapon is a lot. A +40 reach for a taser or fishing bow would be possible, but also the focus of any thief on the streets.
toturi
QUOTE (Chibu)
uh, except that the dragon can make you re-roll all of your successes. they're fun like that.

Only if the DIQ(dragon in question, pronounced "dick" biggrin.gif ) is a GD. Then you will be in so deep doo-doo it doesn't matter if you have a range weapon focus or not.
Liper
QUOTE
Hitting a living thing won't stop an astral form in SR3. Auras are perfectly intangible


That explains why astral entities can't move through the earth for very far....
If you're hitting a living thing (which isn't the question the question is spirits) the bullet it's self will do damage...

QUOTE
Assuming that the spirit doesn't move out of the way, which it will and assuming that you can put a ward on an object that moves realitive to the mana sphere, which may or may not be possible depending on the GM's interpertation of the warding rules.


a) it's here in earth not space, so yes you can have a ward on a bullet
b) spirit, unless you're doing some wierd matrix stuff, can't dodge a bullet.
c) wards are able to be on any physical thing, even if the thing isn't stationary, you can ward a car or a plane or a postage stamp as well as you can ward a shamanic lodge.

hyzmarca
QUOTE (Liper)
QUOTE
Hitting a living thing won't stop an astral form in SR3. Auras are perfectly intangible


That explains why astral entities can't move through the earth for very far....
If you're hitting a living thing (which isn't the question the question is spirits) the bullet it's self will do damage...

QUOTE
Assuming that the spirit doesn't move out of the way, which it will and assuming that you can put a ward on an object that moves realitive to the mana sphere, which may or may not be possible depending on the GM's interpertation of the warding rules.


a) it's here in earth not space, so yes you can have a ward on a bullet
b) spirit, unless you're doing some wierd matrix stuff, can't dodge a bullet.
c) wards are able to be on any physical thing, even if the thing isn't stationary, you can ward a car or a plane or a postage stamp as well as you can ward a shamanic lodge.

Considering how fast they can most on astral, an astral spirit can certainly dodge a bullet.

The problem with warding a bullet is that you don't ward objects you ward an area. The physical components simply determind the boundries of the ward. This can be done if you consider it possible to ward the interior space of the bullet. However, going by some interpertations you would have to use multiple bullets set in a geometric pattern.

Also, SR3 specificly prohibits moving a ward, although the exact wording leaves the meaning open to interpertation. It may mean that the ward can't be seperated from its physical componets or it may mean that the ward will be proken if the physical components are moved.
nick012000
Going on the 'tasers can be weapon foci' idea, here are some other feasable ranged weapon foci:

Harpoons, either thrown by hand, or fired from a gun.
Lasers. The beam's connected to the emitter is connected to the casing is held in your hand.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (nick012000)
Going on the 'tasers can be weapon foci' idea, here are some other feasable ranged weapon foci:

Harpoons, either thrown by hand, or fired from a gun.
Lasers. The beam's connected to the emitter is connected to the casing is held in your hand.

If you were going to use a laser weapon focus you would have to enchant the light as a part of the focus and use the exact same light every time. It isn't feasable. Enchanting a harpoon, taser, or fishing arrow is feasable but you would have to enchant the line. Reach multipliers quickly get out of hand but it certainly can be done.
Herald of Verjigorm
The reach multiplier is only for buying an enchanted item. The actual enchanting test doesn't care if you are working on a stilleto or vaulting pole.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
The reach multiplier is only for buying an enchanted item. The actual enchanting test doesn't care if you are working on a stilleto or vaulting pole.

It is also for bonding and the enchanter usually has to pay the first bonding cost.
tisoz
My MitS says 8*Force for a weapon focus with no mention of reach. Did I miss an erratta?
hyzmarca
QUOTE (tisoz)
My MitS says 8*Force for a weapon focus with no mention of reach. Did I miss an erratta?

My mistake. I was thinking of the rules for bonding from SR3, (3 + reach) x Force
Clyde
Two options.

Number 1: Create an expendable spell anchor in the form of an arrow (low tech, easy enchanting) or a bullet (higher tech, but forged from soft lead you can create it yourself). Then link it to a death touch spell and detect whatever. Shoot spirit (or whatever) and enjoy. Expensive and one shot, but cheaper than a weapon focus anyway.

Number 2: Learn some unique metamgic power that allows your foci to stay active even when they aren't touching your body. Maybe get it from a free spirit, dragon or some weird metaplane. Bribing the GM is necessary, but if you ARE the GM you can bribe yourself smile.gif

I especially like the thought of anchor bullets out of a hold out pistol or slingshot. "Don't make me use this!"
Feshy
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
A great weapon for this is the fishing-bow.
A fishing-bow is a bow which, as the name suggets, is used for fishing. Attached to the bow is a long reel of fishing line, which is attached to the arrows. (The arrows are often not fletched, but have rather nasty barbed heads.) When the bow is fired, you impale the fish, and can reel it in. Alternately, you can just snip off the fishing line from where you are and reload.
They sell kits for these at my local archery range.

I've often thought of this for a ranged weapon focus too; not least of all because I used to bow fish myself. Unfortunately, it was when I was very young, and I long ago grew out of that bow (physically, that is... the draw length is much too short for my current frame.) So I haven't been in a while. Also, thanks to suburban runoff, the rivers I used to fish are now no longer habitable to very many types of fish.

Still, the "just tie a string to it" mentality violates the "spirit" of the ranged weapon focus rules; and if magic isn't about "spirt of the rules" than I don't know what is.

Though, it does make me wonder about another gray area -- what about a throwing net with a rope on one end?
Glyph
The biggest problem with weapons like harpoons, fishing bows, etc. is that the cost to bond such a weapon focus would be staggeringly prohibitive.

The other big disadvantage that ranged weapon foci would have is one that they share with any other ranged weapon. If you throw it at someone, and don't kill them, then they have your weapon. For sniping spirits, manabolt is usually a better option.
tisoz
QUOTE (Glyph @ Dec 3 2005, 02:52 PM)
The biggest problem with weapons like harpoons, fishing bows, etc. is that the cost to bond such a weapon focus would be staggeringly prohibitive.

Anyone wanting to use such a weapon would probably be limited by such cost to being the first one bonded to it. The reach of the weapon is not relevant to the cost of first bonding. This also acts as a deterrant for those wishing to steal the weapon focus.

However then, I have a feeling the GM would rule harpoons and fishing bows, etc. in fact possess no reach bonus as they are ranged weapons that happen to be attached to the wielder.
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