Full Version: Foci on the astral plane
How do they work? The GM in my group seems to think that active foci appear on the astral plane as big glowies and you can zap people through them even if they aren't astrally perceiving. He also believes that casting a spell on an enemy's foci negates the defender's ability to use counter-spell dice. I always thought this was pretty wonky, but as we're rapidly discovering a lot of the things we took for granted are wrong. So if someone could clarify how foci work in SR4 (the only thing I can find is that foci can be used in ritual sorcery to target their owner) that'd be greatly appreciated.
Astral grounding was removed. Foci can be active only when in their owner's possession, but they always provide an astral trail to their owner (the person who bound it).
All the astral trail does nowadays is let you go find a magician. You can't zap him through it with ritual sorcery anymore; ritual sorcery requires the "spotter" participant to be assensing the target during the casting.
All the astral trail does nowadays is let you go find a magician. You can't zap him through it with ritual sorcery anymore; ritual sorcery requires the "spotter" participant to be assensing the target during the casting.
Oh, and active weapon foci have an astral presence (i.e., they're dual-natured) but I don't see anything that says other active foci are likewise dual. If you project, you still take the astral forms of your foci with you.
Though we all hope and pray that they put the ability to do so back in with street magic.
(And many house rule it back in anyway, as your GM does with grounding. It just shows that he's an old second Edition player)
Truely, though, you can still get some effect from grounding. An active Foci is an active astral thing, so you can Nuke the Foci just fine. Depending on your interpretation of the targeting rules, an area spell dropped on an active Foci will efect those around it.
(And many house rule it back in anyway, as your GM does with grounding. It just shows that he's an old second Edition player)
Truely, though, you can still get some effect from grounding. An active Foci is an active astral thing, so you can Nuke the Foci just fine. Depending on your interpretation of the targeting rules, an area spell dropped on an active Foci will efect those around it.
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| Oh, and active weapon foci have an astral presence (i.e., they're dual-natured) but I don't see anything that says other active foci are likewise dual. If you project, you still take the astral forms of your foci with you. |
Where does it say that about weapon foci? And why are astral forms of your foci important?
Astral forms of foci are important because it means two things. First, that you can take foci with you (And get their effect) while astrally projecting, even to the metaplanes. And Second, as is the topic of this discussion, you can target them from the astral when active.
I'm not entirely sure any of this made it to SR4, but it was all there in SR3. Honestly, its becoming more apparent that anyone new to SR needs to read SR3 before reading SR4, since so many things that are presumably still true were kinda implied rather than stated.
I'm not entirely sure any of this made it to SR4, but it was all there in SR3. Honestly, its becoming more apparent that anyone new to SR needs to read SR3 before reading SR4, since so many things that are presumably still true were kinda implied rather than stated.
| QUOTE (p184) |
| Active weapon foci have a presence in astral space and can harm an astral form (see Foci, p. 190), but the wielder must be present on the astral plane to use the focus in astral combat. |
Ah, found the passage about other focus types:
| QUOTE (p191) |
| When activated, foci have an astral form and will accompany an astrally projecting magician to which they are bound. |
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Dec 2 2005, 06:29 PM) |
| Truely, though, you can still get some effect from grounding. An active Foci is an active astral thing, so you can Nuke the Foci just fine. Depending on your interpretation of the targeting rules, an area spell dropped on an active Foci will efect those around it. |
There is no grounding anymore, just to be clear.
| QUOTE (p173) |
| A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no physical presence. |
So if a purely astral magician tossed an area spell on an active focus, it could affect that focus and all other dual/astral forms in the area. People and objects that were not astrally active at the time would be immune.
It's still useful, in that blowing up foci will do nuyen and karma damage to your opponent.
If I wanted to be a pedantic rules lawyer, I could say that it specifically says target.
I.e. if I cast say, Fireball, on the Astral form of your sustaining focus....
Would it spread to the physical or have no effect on all the astral stuff. Who knows?
For that matter, if someone is astrally perceiving, can I cast physical spells on them while I astrally project?
I.e. if I cast say, Fireball, on the Astral form of your sustaining focus....
Would it spread to the physical or have no effect on all the astral stuff. Who knows?
For that matter, if someone is astrally perceiving, can I cast physical spells on them while I astrally project?
| QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist) |
| I.e. if I cast say, Fireball, on the Astral form of your sustaining focus.... |
... then you would have already broken the rules, because you can only target astral forms with mana spells?
-Frank
Well that solves that handily then doesn't it?
Or wait a minute.
Does that mean that you can only target dual natured beings with mana spells?
Near as I can tell foci are essentially dual natured, having a linked astral form and physical form. Either one is toasted, it is toasted.
The question becomes if there is a rule that states you can only cast mana spells in mana form and physical spells in physical form.
Or wait a minute.
Does that mean that you can only target dual natured beings with mana spells?
Near as I can tell foci are essentially dual natured, having a linked astral form and physical form. Either one is toasted, it is toasted.
The question becomes if there is a rule that states you can only cast mana spells in mana form and physical spells in physical form.
The rule above is that "a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form." Since an active focus has both a physical and astral form, you can say that it's a valid target to an astral mage.
Only Mana spells can affect astral forms, but I don't see anything saying that only Physical spells can affect physical forms (because that's not the case).
Only Mana spells can affect astral forms, but I don't see anything saying that only Physical spells can affect physical forms (because that's not the case).
A dual creature can be targetted by a physical or a mana spell. But if the caster is astral, the caster can only target the astral form of the dual target, and can only throw a mana spell.
As outlined on page 195, a physical spell cannot be targetted against an astral form, a mana spell cannot be targetted against a non-living target.
-Frank
As outlined on page 195, a physical spell cannot be targetted against an astral form, a mana spell cannot be targetted against a non-living target.
-Frank
| QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist) |
| The question becomes if there is a rule that states you can only cast mana spells in mana form and physical spells in physical form. |
Yeah, that'd suggest that grounding still existed alright.
Can an astral percieving mage cast a mana spell on the astral plane at a focus and disrupt the focus enough to dissipate the spell linked to it?
SR3 BBB had a section of rules spelling out explicitly how to deactivate foci by attacking their astral form, then further rules that allowed you at that point to permanently destroy the enchantment.
That section didn't make it to the SR4 BBB. SR4 active foci still have an astral form, and could therefore in theory an astral or dual character could attack it by spell (the Manabolt series are currently the only SR4 spells available for this) or astral melee.
We are given how foci resist spells:
That section didn't make it to the SR4 BBB. SR4 active foci still have an astral form, and could therefore in theory an astral or dual character could attack it by spell (the Manabolt series are currently the only SR4 spells available for this) or astral melee.
We are given how foci resist spells:
| QUOTE (page 174) |
| Spells cast on astral objects like mana barriers or active foci are resisted with Force. |
Do foci soak melee damage with Force dice, or with Force x 2? We can extrapolate the later from how an astral barrier resists damage and the mechanics for attempting to press foci through an astral barrier. Also disrupting the astral form foci still appears to cause them to deactivate only, again from page 186. Of course deactivating the focus will cause the spell maintained by a Sustaining focus to cease.
Hitting a foci with melee is a little less clear (but maybe only because i don't see the full rules for attacking a carried object). Because foci are aways carried in some way when active, as i understand it it would be a Called Shot (with no DV increase, just a penalty to hit) opposed by the owner of the foci. Alternatively a GM might allow the Called Shot option of knocking an object away, which if successful would also cause an automatic deactivation (not sure whether the attacker would need to beat Str or Cha or both of a dual natured focus owner).
For tracking damage to the foci it seems likely that you'd treat it as an object with a Structure Rating of Force, and that at the end of the turn they fully "heal" back up with a full Turn of "rest". Both following from the astral barrier on page 185 and roughly from how much they could take in SR3. Any SR4 quotes more directly dealing with this from you rules-robos out there? Rotbart?
P.S. A successful melee attack on foci with a Weapon Foci might result in Opposed Test Forcex2 to see which remains active, but i didn't look that closely at that. Is that what happens when you attack an astral barrier with a Weapon Foci? Or can the attacker do damage without creating a passing through Opposed Test? Then again this line of thinking might create a situation where the attacker is allowed, in place of doing damage, to make a Magic + Charisma Opposed Test vs. Forcex2. *shrug* But i think this is quickly leaving RAW further in the rearview mirror.
Knocking an object out of an opponent's grasp is a -4 dice pool modifier.
You can take that for what it is worth.
-Frank
You can take that for what it is worth.
-Frank
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.