Full Version: Combat Sense
| QUOTE (SR4) |
| Combat Sense Cost: .5 per level Combat Sense provides an instinctive sense about an area and any potential threats nearby. Th e character gains one die per level for Reaction on Surprise Tests and when defending against ranged and melee attacks. |
Note how it says Reaction. Does that mean that Combat Sense augments your Reaction stat, which would mean that if you, say, have a Reaction 5 (7) from Improved Reflexes (2), you can only get 2 points of Combat Sense, and if you ever wanted to raise your reaction and Imp Reflexes by 1 each (Reaction 6 (9)) you would never be able to get the bonus from combat sense?
Gaining a die for reaction tests is not the same thing as gaining a point of reaction. So the Reaction Enhancer or the Improved Physical Attribute power, which add their rating to Reaction, counts against the augmented limit. Running or having the Combat Senses power, which adds to the reaction test does not.
-Frank
-Frank
My guess is that the primary benefit is extra dice defending against ranged and melee attacks.
this plays like the old lightning reflexes edge, and is useless outside of surprise situations
This is god if you arent a troll, get a _ton_ of extra dice on your defence vs guns, heck you will eventually roll more dice than the attack rolls to hit you with.. me like those odds.. 
As argued in Shadowrun 3, this ability was considered almost completely useless. I say don't bother getting this. I took it with my SR3 adept before and completely forgot I even had it in the first place.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| Gaining a die for reaction tests is not the same thing as gaining a point of reaction. So the Reaction Enhancer or the Improved Physical Attribute power, which add their rating to Reaction, counts against the augmented limit. Running or having the Combat Senses power, which adds to the reaction test does not. -Frank |
I have to agree with Frank here. Combat sense adds dice to the test, and it is not considered a stat modifying augmentation like Improved Reflexes.
Since it adds to your defense tests against ranged attacks, I consider Combat Senses to be a better deal than Mystic Armor. If your defense test comes up with as many hits as their attack roll, they miss you. Otherwise, every hit on your defense test still negates a hit on their attack roll and is thus just as good as a hit on your damage resistance roll.
Unless people are hitting you in melee a lot, Combat Senses prevents just as much damage as Mystic Armor or Increased Body, but it also causes attacks to miss altogether sometimes. Combat Senses is the signature power of the invulno-troll of SR4.
-Frank
Unless people are hitting you in melee a lot, Combat Senses prevents just as much damage as Mystic Armor or Increased Body, but it also causes attacks to miss altogether sometimes. Combat Senses is the signature power of the invulno-troll of SR4.
-Frank
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| Since it adds to your defense tests against ranged attacks, I consider Combat Senses to be a better deal than Mystic Armor. If your defense test comes up with as many hits as their attack roll, they miss you. Otherwise, every hit on your defense test still negates a hit on their attack roll and is thus just as good as a hit on your damage resistance roll. Unless people are hitting you in melee a lot, Combat Senses prevents just as much damage as Mystic Armor or Increased Body, but it also causes attacks to miss altogether sometimes. Combat Senses is the signature power of the invulno-troll of SR4. -Frank |
Agreed. It seems as if reaction is by far better at avoiding damage than body and armor are. Not that its bad to have both, just if I had a choice of only one, it would definately be reaction.
Combine a couple lvls of combat sense with attribute boost (reaction) for .25 and you are pretty damn hard to hit...
mystic armor would eventually get better as you are attacked more often though.
of course, OTOH, if you are getting attacked that often, it may very well be that neither ability will help that much...
of course, OTOH, if you are getting attacked that often, it may very well be that neither ability will help that much...
Why not take a few levels of both? That way you can do the uber-dodge, and still get to be a tank.
It's a nice power to have. After all, most adepts use one-shot weapons (like fists or pistols) as opposed to the SMGs and assault rifles favored by Samurai, and if you can always shoot first, your oponent won't be able to shoot back. (And even if they can, they'll still likely be looking at a nasty penalty from the damage.)
| QUOTE (Nidhogg) |
| Why not take a few levels of both? |
Because the more of each one you have, the more valuable it is.
The more Combat Sense you have, the more likely it is to completely negate an attack.
The more Mystic Armor you have, the more likely it is to convert damage to stun.
You can have both, but then you won't have points left over for reflexes.
-Frank
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) | ||
Because the more of each one you have, the more valuable it is. The more Combat Sense you have, the more likely it is to completely negate an attack. The more Mystic Armor you have, the more likely it is to convert damage to stun. You can have both, but then you won't have points left over for reflexes. -Frank |
Ah, but even if you don't have points for reflex, every time someone attacks you, reflex or not, you will more than likely dodge it. That's basically trading scary killing opportunity with power defense.
Sometimes it's okay to be slow - you're fast enough already!
"It's allll in the hips! It's alll in the hips!"
I was weighing these two skills earlier today, and something came to mind: Dodge can remove successes, thus helping soak damage or negate a hit entirely, but aren't there more ways attackers can reduce your dodge pool by a greater proportion as opposed to armor?
I don't have the book handy, but wouldn't the fact that mystic armor [which applies in more situations, and even when you're caught unawares] adds to an already large die pool be more useful? Is this only the case for trolls since they get such a large bonus to body and armor to begin with? What do you folks think?
I don't have the book handy, but wouldn't the fact that mystic armor [which applies in more situations, and even when you're caught unawares] adds to an already large die pool be more useful? Is this only the case for trolls since they get such a large bonus to body and armor to begin with? What do you folks think?
Armor ahs a higher dice pool because you test After their base damage is applied. Reaction is better because if you get more hits than your opponent, you dodge completely
Ex:
Adept 1 and 2 are otherwise identical (reaction 6, body 5, armor 4), with only the changes below.
Adept 1 has combat sense 6. His dodge pool is 12 and his soak is 9. He is hit by an attack with 4 successes and a base damage of 6P. He rolls 4 successes on his dodge test, causing the attack to completely miss.
Adept 2 has mystic armor 6. His dodge pool is 6 and his soak is 15. In the same situation above, he rolls 2 to dodge, gets hit with 2 successes. He must soak 8p damage. He rolls 15 dice, gets 5 successes and takes 3p damage.
Ex:
Adept 1 and 2 are otherwise identical (reaction 6, body 5, armor 4), with only the changes below.
Adept 1 has combat sense 6. His dodge pool is 12 and his soak is 9. He is hit by an attack with 4 successes and a base damage of 6P. He rolls 4 successes on his dodge test, causing the attack to completely miss.
Adept 2 has mystic armor 6. His dodge pool is 6 and his soak is 15. In the same situation above, he rolls 2 to dodge, gets hit with 2 successes. He must soak 8p damage. He rolls 15 dice, gets 5 successes and takes 3p damage.
They both have their merits. But I have noticed that I prefer the high reaction + combat sense vs. High body + good armor (not that they shouldn't be combined).
With a higher reaction you get the benefit of rocking out on your vehicle tests, helps you go first, and is only real chance you have against suprise attacks.
The Mystic armor is nice and the body is nice, but body only goes into so many (lame) skills. But in general you still will take stun damage, whereas with the reaction and a good supportive skill, you probably won't even get hit in the first place.
With a higher reaction you get the benefit of rocking out on your vehicle tests, helps you go first, and is only real chance you have against suprise attacks.
The Mystic armor is nice and the body is nice, but body only goes into so many (lame) skills. But in general you still will take stun damage, whereas with the reaction and a good supportive skill, you probably won't even get hit in the first place.
Well, Combat Sense adds to your Reaction for surprise tests as well, meaning it is quite likely you may even be able to surprise people that ambush you and be more likely to be able to dodge. Which is good.
As for reducing armor vs reducing dodging, that is up in the air.
Wide Bursts, Wide Choke on Shotguns, and wound penalties and such for dodging.
AP on guns, EX-EX ammo, Elemental Effects(1/2 Imp)
Theres also the fact that +1DV, gainable in many ways is equivalent statistically to -3 armor, but is no less likely to be dodged.
I really think dodging is the winner, considering that wide bursts, and choke on shotgun to prevent dodging all could be doing more damage which would hurt more if you can't dodge anyways.
As for reducing armor vs reducing dodging, that is up in the air.
Wide Bursts, Wide Choke on Shotguns, and wound penalties and such for dodging.
AP on guns, EX-EX ammo, Elemental Effects(1/2 Imp)
Theres also the fact that +1DV, gainable in many ways is equivalent statistically to -3 armor, but is no less likely to be dodged.
I really think dodging is the winner, considering that wide bursts, and choke on shotgun to prevent dodging all could be doing more damage which would hurt more if you can't dodge anyways.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| Gaining a die for reaction tests is not the same thing as gaining a point of reaction. So the Reaction Enhancer or the Improved Physical Attribute power, which add their rating to Reaction, counts against the augmented limit. Running or having the Combat Senses power, which adds to the reaction test does not. |
I suspect that it's another case of bad wording. I'd personally be much more satisfied if it read something like:
"Each level of Combat Sense adds +1 pool bonus to Reaction tests for surprise, dodging melee attacks, and dodging ranged attacks."
Since we all know that pool bonuses have unlimited stacking, there'd be no question.
In a related story: Note the differences in the Combat Sense spell and the Increase Reaction spell. All else being equal, it looks like taking Combat Sense is silly because it doesn't add to your Initiative, doesn't assist in you Reaction-based skill pools, and the drain code is a whopping 4 DV higher than Increase Reaction.
However, Increase Attribute must be cast at a force equal to the target's current Reaction and it can run into the augmented racial attribute cap. Combat Sense can be cast at any Force and since it doesn't directly modify any attribute (just three specific tests rated to Reaction), it has no cap.
Same thing with the identically-named adept power of Combat Sense: however, it does have a cap equal to the adept's Magic attribute, just like all adept powers.
Personally, I prefer armor...mainly due to some of the adjustments on the Defense Modifiers table.
Situation: Defender unaware of attack
Dice Pool Modifier: No defense possible
Situation: Defender has defended against previous attacks since last action
Dice Pool Modifier: -1 per additional defense
Situation: Defender in melee targeted by ranged attack
Dice Pool Modifier: -3
At least with armor, it's always there. And if you can get Body + Armor high enough, you can shrug off some pretty tough attacks. Imagine a troll adept with Body 10, Mystic Armor of 6, and an Armor Jacket with Helmet. That works out to something like 25 dice to roll. Even a Monofilament Whip is only going to subtract 4 dice from that.
Situation: Defender unaware of attack
Dice Pool Modifier: No defense possible
Situation: Defender has defended against previous attacks since last action
Dice Pool Modifier: -1 per additional defense
Situation: Defender in melee targeted by ranged attack
Dice Pool Modifier: -3
At least with armor, it's always there. And if you can get Body + Armor high enough, you can shrug off some pretty tough attacks. Imagine a troll adept with Body 10, Mystic Armor of 6, and an Armor Jacket with Helmet. That works out to something like 25 dice to roll. Even a Monofilament Whip is only going to subtract 4 dice from that.
"Damage Resistance" versus "Damage Avoidance" is one of those eternal balance struggles in every roleplaying game.
I'm not going to say that SR4 has them perfectly balanced, but I'll day that the circumstantial value of each are distinct enough to where I'm happy.
I'm not going to say that SR4 has them perfectly balanced, but I'll day that the circumstantial value of each are distinct enough to where I'm happy.
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| Armor ahs a higher dice pool because you test After their base damage is applied. Reaction is better because if you get more hits than your opponent, you dodge completely Ex: Adept 1 and 2 are otherwise identical (reaction 6, body 5, armor 4), with only the changes below. Adept 1 has combat sense 6. His dodge pool is 12 and his soak is 9. He is hit by an attack with 4 successes and a base damage of 6P. He rolls 4 successes on his dodge test, causing the attack to completely miss. Adept 2 has mystic armor 6. His dodge pool is 6 and his soak is 15. In the same situation above, he rolls 2 to dodge, gets hit with 2 successes. He must soak 8p damage. He rolls 15 dice, gets 5 successes and takes 3p damage. |
What are the odds that a runner is only going to have an armor of 4? I would expect a professional to at least be wearing either a coat or camo suit, depending on the flavour of the run. I'd consider a helmet, as well. A coat alone raises that armor pool to 19, or another success, and a helmet would bring it up to 20 for about 6-7 successes.
Admittedly the dodge still wins, and we haven't included the AP on most weapons you'd have to worry about anyway, but I thought this could be a hair more balanced I also hadn't accounted for the fact that every success you don't stage down with dodge makes your soak roll that much tougher.
Currently, the character I'm working on is a Troll with a body of 7, adding another 3 dice [+2 body and the armor], bringing the pool up to 23, or 7 successes. But even then, that's not buying 4 points of body like for the sample character. We could add 2 more dice to make him equivalent in attribute expenditure on Body, so his resistance pool is now 25, or 8.3 successes. [Excluding, as mentioned previously, AP, ammo and firing modes.] Maxing body at the expense of reaction doesn't seem like it would help much.
We haven't even included shields, although their use generally precludes a botched run, which would add between 4 and 6 to the armor, increasing the pool by yet more - enough to average out to more successes, I think. You could probably twink an adept to be nearly as good at dodging, but on first glance it seems that the ways to increase armor are a lot easier to come by, and if he's this tough at chargen, you could always boost his reaction via reflex powers and initiation at a later date. Buy some stimpatches in case the stun damage he'll be almost exclusively taking gets a bit higher than comfortable and you've got a heck of a juggernaut, if not a very stupid one [where else would you find all the points?]
I didn't expect that to work out so well. Do you think the developers purposely designed it with this in mind, such that a troll - a troll not even maxed out at chargen - using the toughness route could be nearly as statistically effective as someone dodging? It's expensive [maxing magic and body, presuming you can max both since Magic is a special attribute] and it seems a little far-fetched, but it's still neat.
Edit: Teehee. Worked this out before reading Fedifensor's post. Ah well.
For informational purposes.
HK MP SMG loaded with normal rounds fires 7P bursts with no or negligiable recoil. (They will almost always use the folding stock)
That very nearly gets by the armor with base damage alone.
They can also open up farther if the dodge pool is low enough (6 or 7 without other enhancement on the troll, you do have extra IPs right?) they can feel confident opening up the long bursts for base 10P damage. A troll is also a natural target for the Heavy Weapons guy with the Ingram White Knight, for long bursts doing 11P with a -1 AP and no recoil. That shouldn't be too much of a problem to handle.
Called shots also negate 3 points of body/armor by giving 1 point of reaction to you
On the other hand, call too much and you can use edge to make them miss.
On either point, if they do hit, each hit that you failed to get on your reaction test causes you to need 3 hits on the armor test to counter it.
Now on the other hand the same one can fire 5P wide bursts with no recoil as well.
-2 for the wide burst, -5 for the long wide burst.
The combat reflexes adept will be a troll as well, just for fun. That will be about 13 dice for defense. Vs. the little guys you still out dice them, and if needs be can pull edge for the miss.
Vs the heavy weapons guy you will be somewhere around 7 dice and likely to be pegged and hard.
Which leads me to think that little guys are better with combat reflexes as they are less likely to be taking long wide bursts, as they will be busy firing at the troll.
On the other hand, if you put 3 points into Mystic Armor, to counter 1 hit on the attack test if they get any net hits. You need 3 points in Combat Reflexes to counter 1 net hit on the attack test.
Those clean misses are probably a lot more useful than the armor you can get, especially as armor is easier to get than dodge bonuses.
HK MP SMG loaded with normal rounds fires 7P bursts with no or negligiable recoil. (They will almost always use the folding stock)
That very nearly gets by the armor with base damage alone.
They can also open up farther if the dodge pool is low enough (6 or 7 without other enhancement on the troll, you do have extra IPs right?) they can feel confident opening up the long bursts for base 10P damage. A troll is also a natural target for the Heavy Weapons guy with the Ingram White Knight, for long bursts doing 11P with a -1 AP and no recoil. That shouldn't be too much of a problem to handle.
Called shots also negate 3 points of body/armor by giving 1 point of reaction to you
On the other hand, call too much and you can use edge to make them miss.
On either point, if they do hit, each hit that you failed to get on your reaction test causes you to need 3 hits on the armor test to counter it.
Now on the other hand the same one can fire 5P wide bursts with no recoil as well.
-2 for the wide burst, -5 for the long wide burst.
The combat reflexes adept will be a troll as well, just for fun. That will be about 13 dice for defense. Vs. the little guys you still out dice them, and if needs be can pull edge for the miss.
Vs the heavy weapons guy you will be somewhere around 7 dice and likely to be pegged and hard.
Which leads me to think that little guys are better with combat reflexes as they are less likely to be taking long wide bursts, as they will be busy firing at the troll.
On the other hand, if you put 3 points into Mystic Armor, to counter 1 hit on the attack test if they get any net hits. You need 3 points in Combat Reflexes to counter 1 net hit on the attack test.
Those clean misses are probably a lot more useful than the armor you can get, especially as armor is easier to get than dodge bonuses.
Interesting.
I also just now worked out that even with a 5 Reaction [I hate spending 25 points for the max], 8 Body, 5 magic w/ 5 points of Combat Sense and level one reflexes [plus some flavour powers for the character] you can get a troll to 11 dice to dodge - more when full dodge is used - and still have more than 20 dice to soak with armor. And I'm not even trying to twink at this point.
I also just now worked out that even with a 5 Reaction [I hate spending 25 points for the max], 8 Body, 5 magic w/ 5 points of Combat Sense and level one reflexes [plus some flavour powers for the character] you can get a troll to 11 dice to dodge - more when full dodge is used - and still have more than 20 dice to soak with armor. And I'm not even trying to twink at this point.
Perhaps the best guideline on which is better is how you build your character and, god forbid, character concept.
Do you want to play the adept that bounces tank rounds off his chest or the adept that could dodge a thermonuclear blast? If you build your character around resisting damage, then take Mystic Armor; if you build your character to dodge attacks, then take combat sense. This is not to say that at some point, a given character won't need both, but stick to concept and expand from there on in game circumstances.
There are a million different situations that can be created to highlight a given power's strengths and point out another powers shortcomings. Instead of looking for simple, twink out strategies with minimal thought, try coming up with a mixed strategy that maximizes utility. "Over-specialize and you breed in weakness."
When it comes to pure dice rolling, these powers will come out equal in the long run. They have the same effect, countering an attempt to damage a character. The secondary effects are just there to make sure you noticed that you made a choice.
Do you want to play the adept that bounces tank rounds off his chest or the adept that could dodge a thermonuclear blast? If you build your character around resisting damage, then take Mystic Armor; if you build your character to dodge attacks, then take combat sense. This is not to say that at some point, a given character won't need both, but stick to concept and expand from there on in game circumstances.
There are a million different situations that can be created to highlight a given power's strengths and point out another powers shortcomings. Instead of looking for simple, twink out strategies with minimal thought, try coming up with a mixed strategy that maximizes utility. "Over-specialize and you breed in weakness."
When it comes to pure dice rolling, these powers will come out equal in the long run. They have the same effect, countering an attempt to damage a character. The secondary effects are just there to make sure you noticed that you made a choice.
one thing I had been wondering, and still unable to get clear on combat sense:
does the bonus to dice to dodge attacks on you only apply when you are in a suprise situation, or all the time? It wouldn't make much sense (in my mind at least) to be better at dodging when you're being suprised then when you are aware of the attack. Assuming (but we know what happens then) that it is all the time, it's a pretty cool power. Otherwise it doens't make much sense. Wish they'd be a bit more careful with their wording.
does the bonus to dice to dodge attacks on you only apply when you are in a suprise situation, or all the time? It wouldn't make much sense (in my mind at least) to be better at dodging when you're being suprised then when you are aware of the attack. Assuming (but we know what happens then) that it is all the time, it's a pretty cool power. Otherwise it doens't make much sense. Wish they'd be a bit more careful with their wording.
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Jan 6 2006, 01:26 AM) |
| one thing I had been wondering, and still unable to get clear on combat sense: does the bonus to dice to dodge attacks on you only apply when you are in a suprise situation, or all the time? It wouldn't make much sense (in my mind at least) to be better at dodging when you're being suprised then when you are aware of the attack. Assuming (but we know what happens then) that it is all the time, it's a pretty cool power. Otherwise it doens't make much sense. Wish they'd be a bit more careful with their wording. |
If I am interpreting this correctly, it applies to Reaction only when surprised, and Dodge when engaged in melee or subject to a ranged attack that does not come as a surprise.
| QUOTE (SR4 p.155) |
| To resolve surprise situations, all participants must make an Initiative Test (Reaction + Intuition). Note the number of hits scored for each character—this is the threshold that other characters need to beat in order to act against them in the fi rst Initiative Pass. |
So it adds dice to the initiative test used to resolve surprise situations.
ok, works for me. Thanks JJ
No problem, us DB-ers need to stick together.
| QUOTE (SR4 pg. 187) |
| Combat Sense Cost: .5 per level Combat Sense provides an instinctive sense about an area and any potential threats nearby. The character gains one die per level for Reaction on Surprise Tests and when defending against ranged and melee attacks. |
It seems to me that it's an extra die on Surprise Tests and on all defense tests, and not just use of the Dodge skill. (If you're not surprised, you always get to roll Reaction when being attacked, but you also roll the Dodge skill when going full-defensive.)
If that's not the case, then I question whether or not it's worth 0.5 points. For that same cost you can get Improved Physical Attribute (Reaction), which grants both those advantages plus more (increased initiative and Reaction-based skills). The advantage to Combat Sense is it's not subject to the cap on augmented attributes.
...Unless that's what you meant and I misinterpreted. In which case, never mind.
isn't Increase Attribute (x) 1 point, not .5? That was 3rd ed I think
| QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist) |
| Those clean misses are probably a lot more useful than the armor you can get, especially as armor is easier to get than dodge bonuses. |
On the other hand, if you're having a bad day with your dice and get tagged, you're going to take a LOT more damage than the guy relying on armor. As others have said, it all depends on your playstyle
Well said, Stormvane.
| QUOTE (TheNarrator) | ||
It seems to me that it's an extra die on Surprise Tests and on all defense tests, and not just use of the Dodge skill. (If you're not surprised, you always get to roll Reaction when being attacked, but you also roll the Dodge skill when going full-defensive.) If that's not the case, then I question whether or not it's worth 0.5 points. For that same cost you can get Improved Physical Attribute (Reaction), which grants both those advantages plus more (increased initiative and Reaction-based skills). The advantage to Combat Sense is it's not subject to the cap on augmented attributes. ...Unless that's what you meant and I misinterpreted. In which case, never mind. |
Yes, that was my intent. I misspoke.
| QUOTE (Fedifensor) | ||
On the other hand, if you're having a bad day with your dice and get tagged, you're going to take a LOT more damage than the guy relying on armor. As others have said, it all depends on your playstyle |
Umm. No.
You see you roll armor as well.
If you have a bad dice roll on your armor roll you take just as much more damage as you would have avoided with the dodge roll.
Each hit on the dodge tests removes 1 Damage, unless you get more hits than they did, in which case it removes all damage.
Each hit on the damage resistance test removes 1 damage.
For removing damage they are equal. For cleanly dodging attacks the edge goes to reaction. For "downgrading" damage to stun damage the edge goes to armor.
As for which are easier to modify (wound penalties and sprays vs increased dmg, called shots and special ammunition) that is more stickly.
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