I had a disagreement with a player as to why a mage (esp. a human) should get some cyber eye mods. He thinks that most any eye cyber can be gotten as optical goggles as well so a mage can use it. I know you can get optical magnification as binoculars, and I suppose as goggles as well (although I don't believe this is in the main book). But low light, and thermo? I'm no engineer but I'm pretty sure these require an electronic manipulation of the original image, so a mage couldn't rely on them for spellcasting.
Anyone know better one way or the other?
Full Version: Eye Mods
Never seen any reference to "optical thermal." Can't imagine any such technology either. Pretty certain it doesn't exist. In fact, optical means "related to sight." In the discussion you're having, make sure he understands the "non-electronic" connotation. Could just be an issue of somantics.
Pretty hard to "prove" that something doesn't exist, though. Tell your buddy to give you ten bucks, and you'll give him a c-bill when he shows you a reference to "optical thermal" or (chuckle) "optical ultrasound." Then buy me a beer sometime.
Pretty hard to "prove" that something doesn't exist, though. Tell your buddy to give you ten bucks, and you'll give him a c-bill when he shows you a reference to "optical thermal" or (chuckle) "optical ultrasound." Then buy me a beer sometime.
actually this issue was brought up, since it's bought and paid for with essence a magician can use it, at least it was true in sr3.
I agree Liper, as does my friend, about implanted gear. My friend claimed that getting such gear implanted in a mage wasn't nessecary because you could get this gear as external goggles without the accompanying essence and magic loss.
I think the exception lies with magnification. It used to be that mages couldnt use Electronic but only optical. Now I dont know if they fixed that one
It is theoretically possible to get "optical lowlight" devices. They were the original nightvision technology, using a big lense to focus as much light as possible onto as small an area as possible (increasing photons/unit area, making a "brighter" image). They used very large objective lenses (the ones I remember seeing were upwards of 6 or 8 inches in diameter, though my google-fu is weak, and I can't find any pictures). If your player is willing to walk around with an 8inch lense hanging a foot off his face, I'd say let him.
well. if i'm not mistaken
if you pay ess for it. it's as goog as what you boarn with as far as casting goes.
But...
If my mage gets: thermo-lowlight-UV-ultrasound vision eyes. can he cast through walls and the like?
if you pay ess for it. it's as goog as what you boarn with as far as casting goes.
But...
If my mage gets: thermo-lowlight-UV-ultrasound vision eyes. can he cast through walls and the like?
Only rice paper walls (or the local equivalent). And even then you get a penalty for an obscured target.
You aren't going to get x-ray style vision, at best a little heat outline and a fuzzy echo profile. Besides, most walls that matter will be insulated enough that neither has any view of the other side.
You aren't going to get x-ray style vision, at best a little heat outline and a fuzzy echo profile. Besides, most walls that matter will be insulated enough that neither has any view of the other side.
Straight Razor: he's talking about goggles, not cyber. Catch up. 
I liked that for double the cost you could have everything in you goggles in a sunglass form. This somehow lead to having characters who had spent more on their glasses than on their cars.
| QUOTE (Deamon_Knight) |
| He thinks that most any eye cyber can be gotten as optical goggles as well so a mage can use it. I know you can get optical magnification as binoculars, and I suppose as goggles as well (although I don't believe this is in the main book). But low light, and thermo? I'm no engineer but I'm pretty sure these require an electronic manipulation of the original image, so a mage couldn't rely on them for spellcasting. |
As noted, some (rather ineffective) "optical lowlight" systems exist - they're big honking lenses, and they only have a fraction of the light-amplifying power that electronic equivalents possess. Optical low light lenses' magnification is limited by the size of the lenses - they only "condense" the light that reaches them. Electronic systems can deliberately amplify light thousands of times. Like cytotek said, if your friend wants 8-inch coke bottle glasses dangling off his face...invest in neck braces.
There's no optical method (that I know of) that can turn infrared light into visible light without some form of electronic or chemical (IR camera film) processing. Both would render the image useless for magic.
Finally, there's no way ultrasound could be a visual system without electronic processing.
The key issue about implanted thermographic and lowlight systems is that while they're electronic, you DID pay essence to integrate them into your "soul", which means magic is willing to work with the implants. The same does not apply to goggles, so you need the original visual image to work with. For that reason, optical magnification goggles will work, but the electronic low light, thermal, and ultrasound systems will not.
Electronic vision magnification and ultrasound don't give LOS even when they are implanted. In the case of electronic magnification it is because that the system actually alters the image be decreasing its resolution. In the case of ultrasound because the image is entirely fake. Thermo and low-light still work, however.
Cyber thermo and lowlight don't have to process the image, they can just send it to the brain raw. Where infrared cameras have to convert the image into something human eyes can see cybernetic thermo puts photoreceptors that do respond to infrared light into the eye and connects them to the optic nerve. Lowlight, likewise, simply adds photoreceptors that are much more sensitive than normal human rods and cones to the eye.
Cyber thermo and lowlight don't have to process the image, they can just send it to the brain raw. Where infrared cameras have to convert the image into something human eyes can see cybernetic thermo puts photoreceptors that do respond to infrared light into the eye and connects them to the optic nerve. Lowlight, likewise, simply adds photoreceptors that are much more sensitive than normal human rods and cones to the eye.
hmm, that makes me think that one could in theory hook some milimeter wave sensitive stuff directly into the optic nerve and let the brain do the dancing...
about the only way i can see of enabling a mage to cast spells thru a wall
that is, as long as its not elemental based
about the only way i can see of enabling a mage to cast spells thru a wall
that is, as long as its not elemental based
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Electronic vision magnification and ultrasound don't give LOS even when they are implanted. |
I think I preferred it when electronic and optical mag implants both worked for mages, since you paid essence for both. It made the system more sensible - all that mattered was that essence had been paid (or not, in the case of goggles).
| QUOTE |
| Cyber thermo and lowlight don't have to process the image |
They're still converting one form of light to electronic signals before passing it to the brain, and the low light is still electronically amplifying the light thousands of times. That's a form of processing, IMO.
But thermo and lowlight don't have to convert the light into machine readable electronic signals. They can simply mimic the rods and cones in the human eye with the exception of their sensitivity.
It doesn't make sese for both optical and electronic magnification to work simply because there would be no need for optical otherwise. Optical is more bulky and costs more essence. Everyone would get electronic if they had a choice.
It doesn't make sese for both optical and electronic magnification to work simply because there would be no need for optical otherwise. Optical is more bulky and costs more essence. Everyone would get electronic if they had a choice.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| ...simply mimic the rods and cones in the human eye.... |
umm....
Optical sensitivity is a funny thing, one single photon can set off a rod or cone. That's about as sensitive as you can get.
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