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Fix-it
whoo hoo!

USAF here I come!
FlakJacket
Wonder why they took cyberpspace, as opposed to some other service branch? Only logical reason I can think of is their already heavy usage of hightech computers and systems in things like aircraft, missiles/rockets and the like. That or no-one else could be bothered with it. smile.gif
Fix-it
QUOTE (FlakJacket)
Wonder why they took cyberpspace, as opposed to some other service branch? Only logical reason I can think of is their already heavy usage of hightech computers and systems in things like aircraft, missiles/rockets and the like. That or no-one else could be bothered with it. smile.gif

that's what I wondered as well. I would think the Navy would jump right on that boat. (D'oh, accidental pun.)

They have a whole bunch of experience in electronics and networking...

Kagetenshi
I do not look forward to the day half the internet lags because the USAF tried to fly a sortie into a backbone router.

~J
SL James
Well, they don't call it the chair force for nothing.
Lindt
Hey, its the AF. At least its not the army...
nezumi
QUOTE (SL James)
Well, they don't call it the chair force for nothing.

I was about to say.

They took cyberspace because it means they're less likely to actually be put in combat situations (plus it's another excuse to buy expensive equipment). Air Force DOES seem to hire an awful lot of IT geeks though. I have guesses why.
Fix-it
QUOTE (Lindt)
Hey, its the AF. At least its not the army...

er.. actually the US Army DOES have a internet team. they just suck. I remember an article a month or so ago in which they asked some canadian group for assistance in taking down some dumb little website.
hyzmarca
In the Army, enlisted personel fight while officiers stay where it is safe and work on their computers. In the Air Force, officers fight while enlisted personel stay where it is safe and work on their computers.
mfb
the AF took it because the AF decided they wanted it. it's not like the Joint Chiefs got together and said "somebody needs to change their mission statement to include cyberspace, let's pick who gets it." the other four branches could decide they want in on this cyberspace action and change their mission statement, too.
Fix-it
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
In the Army, enlisted personel fight while officiers stay where it is safe and work on their computers. In the Air Force, officers fight while enlisted personel stay where it is safe and work on their computers.

that's why the navy is so great. both the enlisted AND officers sit in safety and work on thier computers...

except for the SEALs. they're just a bit nutty.
Birdy
On the other hand, the USMC might be the best choice. Somewhere between Spam Number 100 and 200 the Spammer's home will be secured - Marine style!
mfb
as opposed to AF style (6-mo lease with an option to buy).
nezumi
QUOTE (Fix-it)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Dec 16 2005, 05:33 PM)
In the Army, enlisted personel fight while officiers stay where it is safe and work on their computers. In the Air Force, officers fight while enlisted personel stay where it is safe and work on their computers.

that's why the navy is so great. both the enlisted AND officers sit in safety and work on thier computers...

except for the SEALs. they're just a bit nutty.

Maybe it's just me, but being on a rocking ship that can easily be sunk either out in the middle of the ocean or in enemy territory doesn't seem especially 'safe'. Granted, in a limited war like something against Iraq, a carrier force out in the ocean is as safe as can be, but if you look at naval casualty rates in WWII (or even Vietnam), those navy boys take a beating. If we have another war against a major power, expect the same again.
Fix-it
QUOTE
If we have another war against a major power,

I'd like to hear opinions on that one, actually. who exactly you think we'd be fighting?


and yeah, even in a modern setting the navy would take a beating. read Red Storm Rising. the USN gets slaughtered.

Birdy
QUOTE (Fix-it)
QUOTE
If we have another war against a major power,

I'd like to hear opinions on that one, actually. who exactly you think we'd be fighting?

The Americans? We germans always end up fighting a some of good soldiers and a lot of Americans biggrin.gif
nezumi
Being the offspring of a Navy family, I feel obliged to say that the Navy would not get slaughtered, even against a 'super sub'.

What major power might we fight in the future? In the next fifty years, China seems like the only real major power that's at all threatening. Navy would definitely come into play there. Iran is probably our favorite semi-major nation, and I do believe they have enough of a navy to cause us some headaches. Bush is running out of time though. Two more years or he can't make the record of three wars caused by one president.
TheHappyAnarchist
The navy is extremely vulnerable to long range aircraft that strike at high speeds due to the ease of detecting the big ships that are the keys to the battleline.

This is already being addressed by the low signal ships that are being made which are very very difficult to spot, and are not detectable by radar until you are already within their range. Scary stuff.

I assume that technology will adapt and it will still be dangerous however.
Fix-it
QUOTE (nezumi)
Being the offspring of a Navy family, I feel obliged to say that the Navy would not get slaughtered, even against a 'super sub'.

er.. what? wrong book, methinks.
Red Storm Rising is a full scale conventional war in europe against the russians. they take iceland and begin conducting long range cruise missle strikes against the convoys moving men & material to europe. they also have to deal with russian submarines (not a small number back in the 1980s.).

QUOTE
Iran is probably our favorite semi-major nation, and I do believe they have enough of a navy to cause us some headaches.


better yet. they have F-14s the last time I checked, admittedly without Phoenix missles, but it will be interesting to see how they stack up against the plastic bug. unless we magically manage to get the JSF deployed beforehand.
nezumi
That's right, I'm thinking of Hunt for Red October. I saw the movie of that and played the game of Red Storm Rising. Too many reds, eh?
hyzmarca
Of course, since they;ll be fighting in cyberspace now does this mean that the Air Force is devolping full-imersion VR that will turn simple computer tasks into pointless and clunky 3D metaphores while opening the user up to direct attacks on his central nervous system?
Fix-it
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Of course, since they;ll be fighting in cyberspace now does this mean that the Air Force is devolping full-imersion VR that will turn simple computer tasks into pointless and clunky 3D metaphores while opening the user up to direct attacks on his central nervous system?

my god, I hope so.
Kagetenshi
Why yes, I would like a nice game of global thermonuclear war. Thank you for asking!

~J
kryton
WOW just like the movie "Hackers".....Damn I've got to go get my 28.8kbps modem....So I can be L33t H@Xor.......

The only way VR might be good is if you had a wider desktop view to have and display many different screens. Although it's just cheaper to buy alot of flatscreen monitors.

Although what if you could turn typing it a simplified movement. You move your hand one way to open a particular window, another to log into a router or firewall. Basically moving from typing to a gesture based hand signal might be faster for faster response. I guess though if your superuser account gets hacked all the hand gestures for the number # 1 won't do you any good.

So far the mouse and the flat screen has been with us for quite some some. Zerox Parc I believe. I wonder what the next evolution in interface design will be?

The processors and microchips are faster and more compact than engineers they could have ever imagined during the 70's. Now we're still using basically the same interface and tools as were designed so long ago. Maybe the Mouse has a 100 years left? Who knows?
nezumi
I can imagine VR would have some uses for the completely computer illiterate. "Put the document in the folder. Oh look, there's actually a file cabinet here! Oh, this looks just like my REAL file cabinet. Hmm... An envelope arrived with a scrawled return address. Oh look, the postage stamp shows it went through Russia. Hey look, it's full of a white powder!"

That said, the best interface wouldn't be a pair of flat screens but a direct neural shunt. It'll come!! Just watch! And when it does, I'll be the monkey testing it out.
Shanshu Freeman
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I do not look forward to the day half the internet lags because the USAF tried to fly a sortie into a backbone router.

~J

don't we have the military to thank for creating the interwebsdotnet through darpa in the first place?




I heard that somewhere.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Shanshu Freeman)
don't we have the military to thank for creating the interwebsdotnet through darpa in the first place?

And we have Bell and Edison and Thog to thank, too. Your point?

~J
Shanshu Freeman
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Shanshu Freeman @ Dec 23 2005, 04:44 AM)
don't we have the military to thank for creating the interwebsdotnet through darpa in the first place?

And we have Bell and Edison and Thog to thank, too. Your point?

~J

If Zombie Bell rose from the grave and demanded the use of my telephone, I don't think I'd begrudge him the loan.


I think you got my point was that I was concerned that we might be looking a gift horse in the mouth. But I get your point that my point was retarded. And you're right. It was late and I was tired. But that's no excuse for retarded posting. lol But you deserve an explanation, so there it is.


Kagetenshi
I would not be overly worried if some branch of the military just declared the internet to be in their purview. The declaration that the Air Force is going to "fly and fight" in it, however, warns of a grave scarcity of clue.

Unless they mean they're starting a multiplayer Freespace 2 league. I could get behind that.

~J
SL James
QUOTE (kryton @ Dec 21 2005, 03:15 PM)
Although what if you could turn typing it a simplified movement. You move your hand one way to open a particular window, another to log into a router or firewall. Basically moving from typing to a gesture based hand signal might be faster for faster response. I guess though if your superuser account gets hacked all the hand gestures for the number # 1 won't do you any good.

Novel idea. It'd be cool if someone made something like that now, where you could use your mouse gestures to control a program. Maybe, say, Firefox?

Oh, wait.

QUOTE (nezumi)
I can imagine VR would have some uses for the completely computer illiterate.  "Put the document in the folder.  Oh look, there's actually a file cabinet here!  Oh, this looks just like my REAL file cabinet.  Hmm...  An envelope arrived with a scrawled return address.  Oh look, the postage stamp shows it went through Russia.  Hey look, it's full of a white powder!"

God, I hope not. That's so disgustingly inefficient (even compared to GUI) it makes my brain hurt just thinking about it.
mfb
there's some sort of module for the latest mac OS that does the same thing, allowing you to switch quickly and easily between multiple full-screen programs. it's pretty neat.
SL James
Exposť
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (SL James)
God, I hope not. That's so disgustingly inefficient (even compared to GUI) it makes my brain hurt just thinking about it.

Well, if we ever manage to reduce the malware out there we'll need to find something to do with all the unused processor cycles.

~J
SL James
They're for compiling Deus.
nezumi
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (SL James @ Dec 23 2005, 02:11 PM)
God, I hope not. That's so disgustingly inefficient (even compared to GUI) it makes my brain hurt just thinking about it.

Well, if we ever manage to reduce the malware out there we'll need to find something to do with all the unused processor cycles.

~J

I wonder how much more inefficient it is to run a GUI over a command prompt. If it somehow saves money ontraining or lets us do more with fewer actions, eventually it will be worth the processing cycles.
SL James
We may never know. GUI was already around when computers became staples of the business world, but I don't seem to recall any horror stories from people who used MS-DOS to do accounting prior to that. I still prefer using UNIX because it is faster to do pretty much anything on a CLI, but that's me.

But the file cabinet idea is just so awful. I keep thinking of the VR device in Disclosure (the movie and the book) and being shocked at how stupid and wasteful it is compared to typing in an entry on a search prompt.
Kagetenshi
I'd amend that to "it is faster to do pretty much anything you already know how to do on a CLI". GUIs are all about lowering training requirements.

~J
SL James
Good point. I learned on CLI and moved onto GUI.
Shanshu Freeman
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I would not be overly worried if some branch of the military just declared the internet to be in their purview. The declaration that the Air Force is going to "fly and fight" in it, however, warns of a grave scarcity of clue.

Unless they mean they're starting a multiplayer Freespace 2 league. I could get behind that.

~J

you have a way with words. cool.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I'd amend that to "it is faster to do pretty much anything you already know how to do on a CLI". GUIs are all about lowering training requirements.

~J

Not entirely true. GUIs still beat the commpand line for browsing. It is far easier to double click through a dozen folders than it is to type dir C:/whatever a dozen times.

Of course, it is great for browsing the web, as well.

Fix-it
QUOTE
there's some sort of module for the latest mac OS that does the same thing, allowing you to switch quickly and easily between multiple full-screen programs. it's pretty neat.


obviously you've never used Linux/KDE. you can have up to a dozen indpendent desktops, and as many full-screen programs running as your hardare can support.

in a barebones linux package (without the KDE Graphical user interface) you can have a bout four different command lines going at once (use alt F1-F4 to switch between them, I think)
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Not entirely true. GUIs still beat the commpand line for browsing. It is far easier to double click through a dozen folders than it is to type dir C:/whatever a dozen times.

Of course, it is great for browsing the web, as well.

No one's going to be typing dir C:/ here nyahnyah.gif cd / , thank you very much.

That said, I consider this amongst the tasks that CLIs are unsuited for: the entire idea of "browsing". CLIs are for when you aren't "browsing", when you know exactly where what you want is and how to use it.

Which requires a lot more training.

~J
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