Full Version: Illiterate Characters
I was curious how difficult it would be for a character to survive without the ability to read. I was asking a few of my players regarding the situation and they told me that most communication is through the use of graphical icons, audio, video, and media in general. How far could someone go with the inability to read?
it's actually acceptable, it's referenced many times due to the heavy iconization and the transducer stuff, that knowing how to write is basically a lost knowledge amongst the masses for more then a basic level.
L - O - L spells "LOL".
-Frank
-Frank
| QUOTE (Liper @ Dec 16 2005, 12:16 AM) |
| it's actually acceptable, it's referenced many times due to the heavy iconization and the transducer stuff, that knowing how to write is basically a lost knowledge amongst the masses for more then a basic level. |
Personally, I find this idea ridiculous, and completely toss it when I'm running a game. Unless my players have an in character reason for not being able to read, they can.
The idea behind the fluff is that in the future, people become more iconographically (is that a word? is now. ha.) oriented and have no use for words. (This being a silly slippery slope based on the made up fact that the existance of the internet means nobody is reading Dickens.)
That's funny, seeing as how the internet is this vast, multi-media beast of information...
which studies have shown is primarily comprised of text.
Well, and elf pRon.
(Oh, and nothing personal went into choosing you to quote, you simply quoted the fluff before I could, so I yoinked it.)
You apparently haven't been put up to snuff about your matrix knowledge then, lol.
The Matrix went from a binary, text world, to a binary (I think), icon world. True, there is computer code to an extent, but essentially everything interacts on a sense-based level - this does that which looks like this that feels like that and therefore reacts to thus, etc, etc. Hence it being a world of Icons. You can still use words, of course. In fact a lot of corp data is more than likely in the format of words - a runner who can't read may pass up a file just because they can't get beyond the title from their data search. A smart runner, however, would only have to make a program to read them in audio or alter the file icon into a voice thingy, or some other representation of the data.
Or something like that. THe point is the 'internet' is no longer text-created, it is icon-created. letters are nothing more than many 'icons', after all, even the binary is iconic - representing a particular pulse or whatnot.
The Matrix went from a binary, text world, to a binary (I think), icon world. True, there is computer code to an extent, but essentially everything interacts on a sense-based level - this does that which looks like this that feels like that and therefore reacts to thus, etc, etc. Hence it being a world of Icons. You can still use words, of course. In fact a lot of corp data is more than likely in the format of words - a runner who can't read may pass up a file just because they can't get beyond the title from their data search. A smart runner, however, would only have to make a program to read them in audio or alter the file icon into a voice thingy, or some other representation of the data.
Or something like that. THe point is the 'internet' is no longer text-created, it is icon-created. letters are nothing more than many 'icons', after all, even the binary is iconic - representing a particular pulse or whatnot.
Actually, I'm quite familiar with the Matrix. However, I choose not to see the Matrix as having so much influence that people stop needing to be able to read. Even today, scads of people use the internet for nothing more than checking their email and looking up movie times. (And elf pRon.) Why would "everyone" suddenly be that much more interested in the "Matrix" (read: internet) just because the words became pictures? It's sill (to me, as I said earlier).
Perhaps my internet example wasn't very clearly given. I didn't mean to say "because our internet has text, the Matrix must too", although I see now why it's so easy to come to that conclusion from my post. My bad.
More that the internet, with all of it's bells, whistles, flash, etc., hasn't made the public illiterate in the last ten years through it's mere existance. Therefore, I find it silly to think that even if the Matrix were to somehow do away with the need for text (which I think is a ridiculous notion even in the SR world), it would not rid people of a need or the willingness to read and write.
We're talking a few decades here. The written word has survived for centuries.
Perhaps my internet example wasn't very clearly given. I didn't mean to say "because our internet has text, the Matrix must too", although I see now why it's so easy to come to that conclusion from my post. My bad.
More that the internet, with all of it's bells, whistles, flash, etc., hasn't made the public illiterate in the last ten years through it's mere existance. Therefore, I find it silly to think that even if the Matrix were to somehow do away with the need for text (which I think is a ridiculous notion even in the SR world), it would not rid people of a need or the willingness to read and write.
We're talking a few decades here. The written word has survived for centuries.
Yeah, I agree that it's a really stupid piece of fluff which is contradicted by the fact that for the entirety of human civilization as technology has advanced and information has become more ubiquitous that literacy has increased.
But why let such niceties as logic get in the way of stupid SR fluff? We'd have no sourcebooks if that happened.
And if that made any f-ing sense whatsoever, then why is there so much written English text in the "AR HUD" image? Functional illiteracy, eh? Bullshit. Stupid bullshit, even.
It should be hard to function in 2070 if you're illiterate. People can function fairly well ... to a point, but it's not the end of the world.
But why let such niceties as logic get in the way of stupid SR fluff? We'd have no sourcebooks if that happened.
And if that made any f-ing sense whatsoever, then why is there so much written English text in the "AR HUD" image? Functional illiteracy, eh? Bullshit. Stupid bullshit, even.
It should be hard to function in 2070 if you're illiterate. People can function fairly well ... to a point, but it's not the end of the world.
Hmmm, here's a thought - Reality filters? People with no letter skills could certainly get software that converts the reality to something more picture friendly - or at least talkative.
But yes, in that regard, it is silly. The main reason anyone probably can't read is because they're sinless, and thus likely school-less. Doesn't mean you couldn't learn online of course - lots of hobo's got matrix (which I find funny).
surviving would come before reading, so unless reading well was a priority, I would guess that most are semi-illiterate if they don't have normal means to learn the language.
But yes, in that regard, it is silly. The main reason anyone probably can't read is because they're sinless, and thus likely school-less. Doesn't mean you couldn't learn online of course - lots of hobo's got matrix (which I find funny).
surviving would come before reading, so unless reading well was a priority, I would guess that most are semi-illiterate if they don't have normal means to learn the language.
| QUOTE |
| Actually, I'm quite familiar with the Matrix. However, I choose not to see the Matrix as having so much influence that people stop needing to be able to read. Even today, scads of people use the internet for nothing more than checking their email and looking up movie times. (And elf pRon.) Why would "everyone" suddenly be that much more interested in the "Matrix" (read: internet) just because the words became pictures? It's sill (to me, as I said earlier). |
Well, let's see.
A) I go to a search engine a few years ago. I type in key-words for "stuff." I get text-based websites of "stuff," maybe a few graphics here and there on the newer, more special ones.
B) I go to a search engine today. I type in the key words for "Stuff," and get imagery, perhaps even movies, if I so choose. These images have text attached to them, but the pictures come up first.
C) I go to a search engine in the future. It and I have a conversation, to which it gives me movies of the "stuff" I'm looking for. These movies contain all the data I need, in one form or another, in an entertaining fashion.
... Or, another example.
A) I send a letter a few decades ago.
B) I send e-mail a few years ago.
C) I send IM's a few months ago.
D) I get a digital camera, and send teleconferences/webcam data today.
E) I get simsense, create an avatar, and send video messages of him 15-20 years from now.
... See the evolution? Literacy may or may not drop -- that was a concept born out of the media explosion during the 80's, when everyone was worried about how Gen-X and Gen-Y (I hate those terms) would turn out. But to be sure, even with the internet as it is today, you can get by without knowing how to read Shakespeare or having appreciated the great literary works of the last couple centuries... At least in regards to daily use.
I am of the mindset that the game defines literacy as beyond a basic understanding of language, as the Matrix and Simsense would probably help facilitate the learning of reading, writing, and speaking at the same time. but even with that, I could make a case that a kid who was born today could theoretically use the "internet" and never once have to learn anything beyond a basic recognition of the written word.
It is possible to get by today without being literate. It isn't easy but it is possible. One can get a job that requires no reading and public signs are almost exclusivly iconic.
Of course, the advantage of being literate or great, but technology can bridge the gap between literacy and illeteracy with such things as voice recognition and reading software.
Of course, the advantage of being literate or great, but technology can bridge the gap between literacy and illeteracy with such things as voice recognition and reading software.
While I do believe you could have an audio contract and most everything on the matrix could be automatically read for you, in the Real World, written words are still pretty darn important. How do you read graffiti without? How do you know which subway station is yours (and which line to ride on)? How do you know which box of bullets is EX and which is standard?
Hrm... Maybe not all THAT important. But I will agree, completely losing the ability to read doesn't make a huge amount of sense. Reading comprehension is still generally faster than listening (and less prone to errors), which means it will be a mainstay of much office and government work, plus it's easier to distribute if people aren't always walking around with jump drives and their personal whatsits SR4 has introduced. Certainly if you're doing anything technical (since small parts oftentimes need labels and can't be bothered to install little talking bits), illiteracy is painful. Better hope you never have to disarm a bomb or something similar.
Generally, in my games, I let all PCs have their r/w skill EQUAL TO their base language skill (I don't halve it) because I can't see the world goign to stupid on quite such a large scale. However, illiteracy is not a huge kick in the pants for a street sam or even an adept.
Hrm... Maybe not all THAT important. But I will agree, completely losing the ability to read doesn't make a huge amount of sense. Reading comprehension is still generally faster than listening (and less prone to errors), which means it will be a mainstay of much office and government work, plus it's easier to distribute if people aren't always walking around with jump drives and their personal whatsits SR4 has introduced. Certainly if you're doing anything technical (since small parts oftentimes need labels and can't be bothered to install little talking bits), illiteracy is painful. Better hope you never have to disarm a bomb or something similar.
Generally, in my games, I let all PCs have their r/w skill EQUAL TO their base language skill (I don't halve it) because I can't see the world goign to stupid on quite such a large scale. However, illiteracy is not a huge kick in the pants for a street sam or even an adept.
The majority of the population is reportedly SINless, which means no formal schooling and no place in society. That puts a damper on literacy.
Or, more to the point, it allows a viable reason for a player to handwave away his character's education if he wants.
Or, more to the point, it allows a viable reason for a player to handwave away his character's education if he wants.
Yeah.. ignoring the SINless thing, which is the true answer...
The example about going around in the subway, or stuff like that? Knowsoft + image link... or even something not that complex. Keep in mind just how heavily the Matrix permeates everything in SR, even moreso now in 4th.
Also: I dunno about you guys, but from what I understand, reading and audio comprehension varies by person.
Anyways, I will say this: AR is going to -help- overall literacy. Most of it is being shown as written word, overlaying the normal field of view... Now, maybe that is just for pictures, but in general I doubt very many people will want their AR coming at them in the form of audio or tactile information. So these information overlays are probably going to be transmitted in pure visual (outside of ARE's and reality filters), and more likely than not in words.
The example about going around in the subway, or stuff like that? Knowsoft + image link... or even something not that complex. Keep in mind just how heavily the Matrix permeates everything in SR, even moreso now in 4th.
Also: I dunno about you guys, but from what I understand, reading and audio comprehension varies by person.
Anyways, I will say this: AR is going to -help- overall literacy. Most of it is being shown as written word, overlaying the normal field of view... Now, maybe that is just for pictures, but in general I doubt very many people will want their AR coming at them in the form of audio or tactile information. So these information overlays are probably going to be transmitted in pure visual (outside of ARE's and reality filters), and more likely than not in words.
Sigh, you don't need to be able to read to ride the subway, or whatever, you just remember. How many times have you said to yourself, "Why should I remember that? I have it written down." Literacy allows you to externalize your memory. If you are illiterate, you can't do this, so you have to learn how to remember the stuff you need to know. Humans are very smart monkeys, the 'remember' trick is a small one, compared to the other stuff we can do.
| QUOTE (Cold-Dragon) |
| The main reason anyone probably can't read is because they're sinless, and thus likely school-less. |
In the case of this character, that is 100% correct. They are SINless and thusly school-less.
Regarding the inability to navigate via streets signs, when I travel in my city, I never look at the street signs at all. Instead, I travel by pure memory. I have a basic idea of how the layout of the city is. It is incredibly easy to go from place to place simply by knowing where it is. The only problem is finding that location initially. However, if that location is important enough to the person, they will surely find a way to get there.
And in the case of not being able to differentiate from normal ammunition and EX-EX ammunition can be argued in a sense of packaging. There certainly are distinguishing makes between the two different types of rounds. One with a basic knowledge in their favorite ammunition types should very easily be able to figure out which is which without making a serious mistake.
My 3-year-old daughter knows her alphabet but can't actually read yet. She can recognize her name, and a handful of other words, out of another group of words just fine. She sees the text as "icons" rather than words.
Worked for her well enough so far; she's already picked out which presents under the tree are hers. I'm considering rewrapping them in duct tape.
Edit: Oh, and she uses a computer about as well as her grandmother. She can start up her little educational games, navigate around in them, and even close them out when she's done. So I fully believe that you can have an Uneducated hacker out there, with a sufficiently tweaked AR/VR GUI.
Worked for her well enough so far; she's already picked out which presents under the tree are hers. I'm considering rewrapping them in duct tape.
Edit: Oh, and she uses a computer about as well as her grandmother. She can start up her little educational games, navigate around in them, and even close them out when she's done. So I fully believe that you can have an Uneducated hacker out there, with a sufficiently tweaked AR/VR GUI.
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| she's already picked out which presents under the tree are hers. I'm considering rewrapping them in duct tape. |
Good idea.
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| My 3-year-old daughter knows her alphabet but can't actually read yet. She can recognize her name, and a handful of other words, out of another group of words just fine. She sees the text as "icons" rather than words. Worked for her well enough so far; she's already picked out which presents under the tree are hers. I'm considering rewrapping them in duct tape. Edit: Oh, and she uses a computer about as well as her mother-in-law. She can start up her little educational games, navigate around in them, and even close them out when she's done. So I fully believe that you can have an Uneducated hacker out there, with a sufficiently tweaked AR/VR GUI. |
k, wait a minute here... i think you got that wrong...
your 3 year old daughter has a mother-in-law? you might want to consider re-phrasing that statement
Read the wireless world in SR4 again.
You get up and get ready to go. You notice you are running low on ammo. You bring up the icon for phone calls, say your contacts name and ask him to look for some EX rounds. You go into the kitchen, tell the machine to make an omelette and wait for it to flavor and heat your soy. (Your illiterate, you probably aren't getting better than soy for anything but dining out)
You get up and head out the door, go down the street to the sub station. You wait for the one that announces Seattle Metroplex, Downtown. You hop on, and as the train passes each station, it announces the stop.
You get off downtown and head down the street, looking around for a pub. You say, search for bars nearby. Your commlink brings up icons for those buildings nearby that are bars and cuts the rest. As you go by, one announces that tonight is the patrons birthday, and 100 nuyen for the night gets you all you can drink synthahol and the chance to party with him. You head over and as you open the door your commlink completes the transaction, after giving you a simple Green-YES and red -NO authorization request.
You commence to get plastered.
You can't find the subway, because you can't read the street signs, and you can't find the map on your commlink because you are sloshed. You tell it to hale a cab, and your commlink automatically requests address as you enter. You choose a preprogrammed choice, HOME you say. The cab automatically deducts the cost and you are on your doorstep, ready to sleep.
Really, with as ubiquitous as AR is in SR4, you don't need to know how to read at all. It is an incredibly useful ability, but so is unarmed combat.
You get up and get ready to go. You notice you are running low on ammo. You bring up the icon for phone calls, say your contacts name and ask him to look for some EX rounds. You go into the kitchen, tell the machine to make an omelette and wait for it to flavor and heat your soy. (Your illiterate, you probably aren't getting better than soy for anything but dining out)
You get up and head out the door, go down the street to the sub station. You wait for the one that announces Seattle Metroplex, Downtown. You hop on, and as the train passes each station, it announces the stop.
You get off downtown and head down the street, looking around for a pub. You say, search for bars nearby. Your commlink brings up icons for those buildings nearby that are bars and cuts the rest. As you go by, one announces that tonight is the patrons birthday, and 100 nuyen for the night gets you all you can drink synthahol and the chance to party with him. You head over and as you open the door your commlink completes the transaction, after giving you a simple Green-YES and red -NO authorization request.
You commence to get plastered.
You can't find the subway, because you can't read the street signs, and you can't find the map on your commlink because you are sloshed. You tell it to hale a cab, and your commlink automatically requests address as you enter. You choose a preprogrammed choice, HOME you say. The cab automatically deducts the cost and you are on your doorstep, ready to sleep.
Really, with as ubiquitous as AR is in SR4, you don't need to know how to read at all. It is an incredibly useful ability, but so is unarmed combat.
I weep for you all, because you have no idea what you're talking about.
Then enlighten the huddled ignorant masses o great shining beacon of knowledge.
The masses have very little use for the actual skill of writing.
Read your source books about writing.
(from sr3 page 91)
"reading and writing have lost much of thier importance as society has become more attuned to icons and images." then to shorten the rest, characters know how to write about half as well as they understand the language, those characters with lingos don't know how to write in that lingo, and probably not very well if anything beyond basic in the base language.
Yes, people are literate, but not close to the level people are these days, more so can be expected from the general masses that the SR world caters to, IE the sinless.
Read your source books about writing.
(from sr3 page 91)
"reading and writing have lost much of thier importance as society has become more attuned to icons and images." then to shorten the rest, characters know how to write about half as well as they understand the language, those characters with lingos don't know how to write in that lingo, and probably not very well if anything beyond basic in the base language.
Yes, people are literate, but not close to the level people are these days, more so can be expected from the general masses that the SR world caters to, IE the sinless.
Icons, for those dumb asses who can't read.
I absolutley love the concept.
I absolutley love the concept.
| QUOTE (Liper) |
| The masses have very little use for the actual skill of writing. Read your source books about writing. (from sr3 page 91) "reading and writing have lost much of thier importance as society has become more attuned to icons and images." |
Wel,, that was back in SR3 times. Now we're in SR4, where anything changes!
| QUOTE (Mr.Platinum @ Dec 17 2005, 06:10 AM) |
| Icons, for those dumb asses who can't read. I absolutley love the concept. |
I liken it to those brochures on airplanes.
Those are fun. =)
Granted, you kinda need to know how to read to find your terminal, check for delays, all that.. But rather than print a few hundred languages, airplanes have gone the iconography route, and it works.
So, SL James, what do we not know what we are talking about?
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| I weep for you all, because you have no idea what you're talking about. |
And I've begun to ignore you, because you're a jackass with a serious superiority complex that takes himself far, far too seriously.
| QUOTE (Liper) |
| Read your source books about writing. |
Just so we're clear, I don't think anyone in this thread hasn't read that section. It's just that some of us prefer to ignore it because it doesn't fit in our SR world/game.
As to "nobody can read because they have no education", I see it like this: Reading would give you a leg up on everyone that couldn't, right? So with all the resources out there, like knowsofts (for the person without the time to learn it), instructor chips, and the trusty old "learn to read" books that can be had for pennies on the nuyen, who wouldn't try to educate themselves for that extra advantage? (Answer, at least in my mind, is that no more and certainly no fewer people would be wanting to learn to read than there are now.)
There's also the "shame" factor. Have you ever met an adult (or a child over 10 even) that can't read? I'm not saying it's universal (I don't know everybody), but underneath any bravado they might sustain to keep you from finding out, the ones I've met are ashamed of it and really would like to be able to read. Of course, then theres the issue of "I can't go get help to learn, because I'm too ashamed, therefore I'll perpetuate my illiteracy", but again, in Teh Future you can just slot a program and learn.
All reasons that I ignore that particular piece of fluff. Yes, there are people in my games that can't read, but it's circumstantial, not nearly as universal as the fluff would seem to indicate.
| QUOTE |
| There's also the "shame" factor. Have you ever met an adult (or a child over 10 even) that can't read? |
Have you ever met a entire subculture of people that can't read, and you come in acting like a smart jackass that can?
Yeah, this is what SR is, you can ignore it for your world, but as far as cannon.... the majority of those that you deal with in SR (the great unwashed masses that is) they are barely literate if that.
I always like to liken some of the feel of SR to the feel you get from george orwells 1984.
Firstly, I am speaking from the perspective of SR3, before all this AR stuff came around (back in my day, we had to use wires to connect to virtual reality! And my host only had memory space for one bit. Yeah, that's how poor we were. Every day we'd get up at 4am and muck out the bit, to make sure it was ready for work, and then we'd turn the crank that turned it from '1' to '0'...) I am aware that this is the SR4 forum, however in 10 years, I can't imagine illiteracy dropped *THAT MUCH*. Yeah, in 2060 people can get by without reading (especially in the barrens), but it isn't easy.
As an aside though, CNN recently noted that about 20% of all adult Americans are illiterate in English. This brings up some interesting points. How many UCAS citizens don't speak English? How many are immigrants of one form or another and haven't had time to learn the language? In my game, polyglots and immigrants are common, but oftentimes haven't mastered all the details of the language (like reading).
So in my games, a lot of the low-class NPCs are illiterate, or borderline illiterate. Most middle class or above people are fully literate, however. PCs can set their r/w skill to any level up to the base language skill for free. If a PC wants to be illiterate, more power to him. If he wants to be semi-literate, that's cool too. But as has been pointed out, there's no reason an aspiring guy on the street can't teach himself to read with a little work.
As an aside though, CNN recently noted that about 20% of all adult Americans are illiterate in English. This brings up some interesting points. How many UCAS citizens don't speak English? How many are immigrants of one form or another and haven't had time to learn the language? In my game, polyglots and immigrants are common, but oftentimes haven't mastered all the details of the language (like reading).
So in my games, a lot of the low-class NPCs are illiterate, or borderline illiterate. Most middle class or above people are fully literate, however. PCs can set their r/w skill to any level up to the base language skill for free. If a PC wants to be illiterate, more power to him. If he wants to be semi-literate, that's cool too. But as has been pointed out, there's no reason an aspiring guy on the street can't teach himself to read with a little work.
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| your 3 year old daughter has a mother-in-law? you might want to consider re-phrasing that statement |
Heh, good catch.
Legitimate options are "my mother-in-law" or "her grandmother."
Me am literated.
In my point of view the world of Shadowrun has just as much text floating around as our own sociaty has. The written word is one of humanity´s most important discoveries. We would not think like we do, we would not be were we are, we would not be remotely the same without it.
Written language will remain the best way to handle certain tasks. If you´re litterate, you can take in greater quantities of information by reading than by hearing oral messages. Reading books will remain superior in many ways to seing the movie, or trid or whatever. Illiteracy is a handicap in Shadowrun. Being able to read is still the norm, in my opinion.
However I do agree less people are able to read good in Shadowrun. Illiteracy is still a handicap, but like other handicaps there is plenty of help for it in this future. With AR you can have a program read arrows and signs for you. And you can propably recite your reports or even think them, and have a program write them down.
Written language will remain the best way to handle certain tasks. If you´re litterate, you can take in greater quantities of information by reading than by hearing oral messages. Reading books will remain superior in many ways to seing the movie, or trid or whatever. Illiteracy is a handicap in Shadowrun. Being able to read is still the norm, in my opinion.
However I do agree less people are able to read good in Shadowrun. Illiteracy is still a handicap, but like other handicaps there is plenty of help for it in this future. With AR you can have a program read arrows and signs for you. And you can propably recite your reports or even think them, and have a program write them down.
| QUOTE (Liper) | ||
Have you ever met a entire subculture of people that can't read, and you come in acting like a smart jackass that can? Yeah, this is what SR is, you can ignore it for your world, but as far as cannon.... the majority of those that you deal with in SR (the great unwashed masses that is) they are barely literate if that. I always like to liken some of the feel of SR to the feel you get from george orwells 1984. |
Hmm. Let me check...
Yup. I made it explicitly clear in my first post that my views were not canon by any means, and simply the way I prefer to run my games.
Thanks for playing though, we have consolation prizes at the door.
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