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Sphynx
First off, let me say that I do not object at all to criticism here. I've already seen that in our feverish attempt to make characters we'd overlooked some indiscrepencies, so I expect I might have missed some rules.

I think the biggest problem so far is cyberware. In 3rd edition, the best cyberwares were the ones that altered TNs, after the first game, and seeing how little difference their cyberware made, the street-sam types in our game are feeling they could have done alot better without the cyberware. The only pieces of cyberware that the team was happy with was the commlinks and Wired Reflexes (of course). Nobody even got cybereyes or ears, since contact lenses and glasses were so much cheaper and all.

Magic seemed the same but different, hard to explain. No objections to the changes so far, (they didn't use any combat type spells yet), but it does seem alot harder to resist drain. We'll test more of that this evening I suppose, see if you take as much drain in combat spells as you do damage. nyahnyah.gif

Anyhows, after the first game, there's some character alterations going on. Seems the StreetSam types are wanting to trade in their cyber for Synaptic Accelerators II, and alot less cyber overall. After seeing the phys ad with Synaptic Acc 2, +6 Pistols, and a SmartLink (external) and still have room for 2 levels of Muscle Toner and Muscle Aug, the Sams feel a bit out-classed

PS: Feel free to point out for me/them why/where/how it's more beneficial to be a Sam.

PPS: We're still just testing waters, that's why it's ok for them to be changing characters. No need to post about the wrongness of allowing players to trade-in their cyber for something else. nyahnyah.gif

It seems alot of the book is dedicated to Decking, something we've never really delved into. Since everyone just did their best to 'convert' their 3rd edition starting characters over, we didn't get to test that either. I'm assuming/hoping that it's in Decking that Sams are alot more interesting... ? Our "rigger" hadda work last night, so he missed the game, we'll try to test some of that tonight as well.

Things I liked:

1 spell for Increased Reflexes. Very nice
Perception is a skill, not Intelligence. I've been House Ruling something similar for years.
400 points is 'low powered', compared to 3rd edition characters. I like that people, post char-gen still have alot of room to 'build up'.

I don't think anyone has a maximum in any attribute in our games, though some have multiple attributes at maximum-1.

Nobody has a Starting magic of 6, everyone started at 5, even the Adept with 2 esence of wares.

The main thing I don't like as a GM, is Edge starting at higher than 1 as an option. Couple of characters have Edges of 5 in our group, and as an old-school player, that 'karma pool' a low levels just feels wrong. nyahnyah.gif I'll get use to it though. wink.gif

Anyhows, those are my initial ramblings of our first test-game. We'll test every night this week, and play 'set in stone' characters on Friday night to begin our campaign. Tonight... Food Fight. nyahnyah.gif

Sphynx
Jaid
the main advantages to street sammies are:

1) BPs. that adept is blowing 50 BPs on a magic score (of which he only gets to keep 30 points worth), then blowing some money (ie more BPs) on a synaptic booster.

2) no bottomless karma holes. that is, the sammy can buy regular skills a lot more often than the typical adept (both in chargen and after)

3) multifunctionality. Sammies can fill in multiple jobs far more easily than an adept, generally speaking. largely because of points 1 and 2. for example, you could easily be a sammy/hacker or sammy/rigger (maybe even all 3, but probably not all that well).

anyways, basically your street sammy is gonna be the team's swiss army knife. he's the one who can look at skills like demolition and say "yeah, i have room for that, even though i'm focused on guns", or oddball weapon skills ("yeah, i know how to use a pain inducer").

on that note, have you been equipping your Sammies with skillwires? that will probably help a lot...
Lord Ben
Sammies are nice because they can easily top out their agility, reaction, and body and still get 3 or 4 initiative passes.

My Orc sam easily got to 13 body, 9 agil, 9 reaction within a couple sessions. Sure, an adept can get a high score in their attributes + abilities but that's their one trick. A Street sam can be nearly as good at that one skill, and a lot better in all the others.
Phantom Runner
QUOTE (Sphynx)
Anyhows, after the first game, there's some character alterations going on.  Seems the StreetSam types are wanting to trade in their cyber for Synaptic Accelerators II, and alot less cyber overall.  After seeing the phys ad with Synaptic Acc 2, +6 Pistols, and a SmartLink (external) and still have room for 2 levels of Muscle Toner and Muscle Aug, the Sams feel a bit out-classed

PS: Feel free to point out for me/them why/where/how it's more beneficial to be a Sam.

Doesn't seem any different than how Sams tended to be built in 3E, at least in my games. The Sammies alwasy went for as much reaction/agility enhancing bioware as they could get first, then cyberware tended to be things they needed to be really good at their job (ie Smartlink, ImageMag, ect).
milspec
QUOTE
. After seeing the phys ad with Synaptic Acc 2, +6 Pistols, and a SmartLink (external) and still have room for 2 levels of Muscle Toner and Muscle Aug, the Sams feel a bit out-classed.


Two comments:

1) All adept abilities are capped at +Magic (p187). In this case, since the adepts have some bioware we can assume Magic loss. Therefor, they can probably not have +6 in Improved Ability. You describe him as starting with a 5 Magic with 2 points of 'ware, so he probably can not buy higher than a +3.

2) Some people, after seeing the German errata, are including Improved Ability under the skill cap. This means a +3 is the effective limit, no matter how high their Magic. Discussion here:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=11019

IMHO Adepts are better balanced vs Sams with 2 skills at +3 rather than 1 skill at +6. No-one likes to be "out pooled" so drastically. wink.gif

As a side note, if everyone has glasses because they are cheaper, I am sure you will be able to think up a situation where they no longer get their glasses. On a Dodge glitch the round nicks their glasses and sends them flying. The Johnson wants to "look them square in the eye". Contacts get dust in them, especially with the right Allergies, and might be particularly susceptible to Acid secondary effects. etc etc

Good luck with your games. I am quite sure the Sams will come around to be more cannon-like, if only through natural selection.

milspec
ogbendog
another problem with glasses is that the availability adds up. I'm running a mage with cyber eyes, they have SGL, flash comp, thermo, low light, vision mag, vision enhance +2

in glasses, that would be 0+4R+2+6+4+2+4 = availability of 22.

Have them double check the availability of thier glasses and make sure it's 12 or less
Cheops
I use the new essence loss=part of your body rule that exists in SR4 now to rationalize putting that stuff in your eyes. If you paid essence for the gear then it resists with your body and armor as applicable. If you didn't then it resists just like any other object which usually means goodbye goggles/contacts. I can't imagine how much it would hurt to be wearing contacts when a grenade/flash bang/tear gas went off nearby. Melt to your eyeballs. Ouch!

Sams are definitely versatile. I personally like the one man platoon or else the panzer sam. The first has hordes of drones and weapons platforms so that if he plans ahead he has "buddies" helping him (and can be vastly improved by the team's technomancer). The second has around 30 resistance dice, 10 dodge dice, and 10 dice in firing a BIG gun. Both should have skillwires and then upgrade the skillwires to rating 5 ASAP.
Sphynx
ogbendog, that's why I said Lenses+Glasses combos. They have Avail 12 Lenses under Avail 12 Glasses.

Thanks for the tip milspec, I think he had it at 4 (+2 for SmartLink), will check that it's not greater than his Magic rating though.

Aku
QUOTE (sphynx)
ogbendog, that's why I said Lenses+Glasses combos. They have Avail 12 Lenses under Avail 12 Glasses.


See, now, this is one trick, that i just DON'T see working, for ALL mods (some, yes). I would think that... "passive" mods would work in glasses over contacts, would work fine (flare comp being the only thing i can think off of of the top of my head, as it's similar to sunglasses), but anything that can be likened to today's vision correction, wouldn't stack. So, off the top of my head, lowlight/thermo couldnt be seperated, and probably vision mag, maybe...

I wear contacts myself, and if i also put on my glasses, i dont get the "better" of the two corrections, infact, i come out slightly worse than i do (as i can tell looking at the boards atleast, nothing medical) than i do with either of them.
BetaFlame
QUOTE
I can't imagine how much it would hurt to be wearing contacts when a grenade/flash bang/tear gas went off nearby. Melt to your eyeballs. Ouch!


That's why I bought protective covers for my techomancer's contacts.

Though, I can never figure out if they pop off like sunglasses, or something. But they give Ballistic and Impact armor bonuses of +2 to the eyes. Since they don't take Essence, I can't imagine them being implants.
Jaid
it's cyberware. by definition, it's implants. it doesn't cost you any essence to go in for plastic surgery either, but that doesn't mean the changes are not part of your body. the covers are permanently part of your body... they just don't change how it works at all.

i would expect that continuously wearing contacts will cause you problems. not to mention the difficulties of what happens if the contacts get knocked out of place. good luck getting at them without the help of a cyberdoc.
Jestercat
I thought protective covers took capacity in cybereyes, ie they're attached to the eye itself? They're rather useful, though mostly I just take them for the coolness factor - like having a shadowy street sam who's eyes are flat black, looking hollow, or my current hacker who covers his in silver.
Jaid
no capacity is used, iirc. they are not attached to the eye, presumably.

exactly what they look like is a bit up to interpretation. on the one hand, i could see them being just sort of a cover directly over your eye. OTOH, i could also see them being big bug-eye type things (hey, it's +2 armor... it's gonna be thicker than regular contacts, you know)
BetaFlame
There's a cyber eye version, and a cosmetic version.

Maybe they have implanted anchors or something, but having the protective cover itself attached makes little to no sense. What happens after your first fire fight and they get chip, or scratched up? You have to have surgery to replace them?

Seems more likely that you can buy replacement covers, pop the old ones off, and pop the new ones on.

And people without cybereyes would need to have them taken off for eye exams and such. Corps/Military might shell for protective covers for their people, but short of SpecOps, I don't see them shelling for an entire cybereye package.
Sphynx
Aku: Possible, but if so, purely a House Rule. No rules indicate you can't stack the two, and unlike you I see it as completely possible and probable (since the book says that all this gear is usually DNI compatable, the 2 can probably talk to each other and auto-compensate).

As for secondary effects being mentioned. I can understand glasses being lost, my own group showed that when two handed in character sheets with a 10 nuyen 'strap' listed under their glasses. nyahnyah.gif But I can't imagine Contact Lenses being affected. Your eyeball is more sensitive than the material they'd be making the Lenses out of in 2070.

Jester: Watchout, someone's likely to tell you how unprofessional your characters are with silver/black eyes, and how no runner would be caught dead working with them. nyahnyah.gif However, I'm with you, I like having Silver Orbs for eyeballs. nyahnyah.gif
hobgoblin
the classical view of eye covers are most likely taken from neuromancer.

more specificaly the character molly.

she have some kind of implantet mirrorshades over her eyes. the tear channels have been redirected into her mouth as there is no way for the water to escape the area behind the covers.

im guessing however that a more practical solution would be to have the mirrors somehow attach to small hooks or similar that would be surgicaly drilled into the skulle above and below the eye. this way one could remove them if needed. the seal around them would not be as tight tho, so im not sure if they would stop all manner of dust and similar.
ogbendog
QUOTE (Sphynx)
ogbendog, that's why I said Lenses+Glasses combos. They have Avail 12 Lenses under Avail 12 Glasses.

Thanks for the tip milspec, I think he had it at 4 (+2 for SmartLink), will check that it's not greater than his Magic rating though.

contacts are availablity base of 6, so the most they could get doing that would be 18. I had 22 in mine.

and I could see ruling that they weren't compatible
Aku
QUOTE (sphynx)
Aku: Possible, but if so, purely a House Rule. No rules indicate you can't stack the two, and unlike you I see it as completely possible and probable (since the book says that all this gear is usually DNI compatable, the 2 can probably talk to each other and auto-compensate).


Well, but, to me, that dni "compensation" means that your brain knows what it's "supposed" to be seeing. lets consider the the case ofa human, "pop eye", the runner who had an eye pop out.. (ok, i know, bad pun) and so got a cheap cyber replacement, with just lowlight, and since he paid for the lowlight with essence, it's "natural". Now, looking into a poorly light room (low moonlight, no lights on) pop eye doesnt see anything, but he has these glasses goggles with thermo, and so he slides them on, and he sees a figure, sitting in a chair (an invisable mage maybe), in his mind, i would think, he would be convinced that there is someone there, because some tech means is tell him that its there.

Now, lets imagine the same situation, before popeye lost his eye. He's got a pair of contacts, with lowlight, that makes him see nothing is there, but a pair of goggles, with thermo, at the same time, telling him there IS something there....

I donno, i just dont like the thought of being able to stack all of the vision mods without any penelties at all.
BetaFlame
Aku, couldn't you use your Commlink to turn off the contacts or glasses so you could see with the other?

Isn't that why most things have a wireless interface now?

As far as the Protective Covers (Cosmetic) I think I am going to go with magnet anchors implanted on the bone ridge above and below the eye, and maybe on the bridge of the nose. They can be turned on and off with a wireless signal from your commlink.
ogbendog
it sounds like your players feel that samouri are kind of getting the shaft. So they'd probably agree to a house rule that you can't stack goggles and contacts.

so a samouri will end up with more/better vision mods than a mage. which should make them happy.

and try to attack them at least once at night so the guys with goggles and contacts don't have them in.
Aku
yes, you could, but then, they're not stacking the visions if they have one turned off, now are they? i just want to be able to avoid the "i can see everything all the time, because i've constantly got low light, and thermo, and vision mag zooming in and out to 50X and and and..." syndrome
ogbendog
you could say that they can only have goggles or contacts on one at a time, but that's a pain in the tuckas to remember which is on at any given time
ElFenrir
Well, the Sammie vs. Adept discussion has been around for awhile now.
I play an adept as a main character, and I gotta say, SR4 adepts are indeed beasts. He's actually well rounded between combat and social, especially intimidation, and the cost of some of those powers are SO cheap...and his skillset is nice and well balanced to boot. I even splurged and maxed out his Magic attribute, and he still ended up with a great skillset. He IS a bit of a karma vacum tho, between purchasing up a few more skills i'd like, and of course initating, upping the Magic after that, and bonding weapon foci. He doesn't have Reflexes however...I know thats the first one folks go for but there were so many other things i wanted.

the Sammie i have also a nice skillset for, and attribute wise, he sort of houses the Adept(due to ware of course), and his Initative as well. Of course, on the plus side, he can use ALL of his karma for skills and attributes. But, they each have their benefits and hinderances...the Adept can affect astral creatures, creatures with immunity to normal weapons(without whipping out a loud, obnoxious BFG), and abilities can up other skills as well as combat. The Sammie on the other hand has his advantages in other areas...he's a bit harder-bodied, typically has a bit more options in the combat area, and simpl;y put, doesn't have to spend 40-65 points for magic, and this can go elsewhere, like Edge.

Both can be versatile...if you play the points right, you can even make an effective Adept hacker/combatant, what with the cheap cost of increased non combat skills.

All in all, i find them quite effective, both of them. I don't hear anyone complaining about Adepts anymore, but i do hear a lot of Sammie complaints these day(in the older editions, it was opposite.) If you build 'em right, they are both some kickass characters.
hobgoblin
stacking googles and contacts? are people silly? the only thing the inner set would see if the display of the outer set nyahnyah.gif

so if you put thermo on your contacts and then slip on a set of low-light googles. all you would see with your thermos on area heat-based reprecentation of the insides of said googles. maybe you can make out the shapes on the screen, no way would you get the benifit of both. want that? get yourself some cybereyes or put both features into the same device!

that or turn of one and put on the other wink.gif
Grinder
QUOTE (ElFenrir)
Well, the Sammie vs. Adept discussion has been around for awhile now.

Since the beginning of SR, i guess. for those interested, just use the search function wink.gif
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Grinder)
Since the beginning of SR, i guess.

Nope.

Adepts weren't introduced until the first Grimoire came out, which was what, sometime in '90? I know it was something like the 4th or 5th release, since DNA/DOA, StreetSam Catalogue, and Seattle Sourebook all came out before it.
ElFenrir
Then AFTER that, came all the Adept vs. Sammy discussions. I still rememeber the days of SR2, where the ol Physad was played roughly once a year.
Grinder
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
Adepts weren't introduced until the first Grimoire came out, which was what, sometime in '90? I know it was something like the 4th or 5th release, since DNA/DOA, StreetSam Catalogue, and Seattle Sourebook all came out before it.

Ok, but it's not far from the beginning wink.gif
ogbendog
what I liked about early SR, is that adepts didn't exist in the game. If you look at the history inSR2 and 3, they talk about adept and initiation being discovered in 2052

I image the official history is that sometime before 2070, shamens learned to bind, and hermetics learned to summon temporarily, and without a big fire/pool of water, etc.
Synner
QUOTE (ogbendog)
I image the official history is that sometime before 2070, shamens learned to bind, and hermetics learned to summon temporarily, and without a big fire/pool of water, etc.

SOTA:64 introduced a bunch of magicians working on just that sort of thing.
Mr.Platinum
Lookign forward to testign the game my self, my old shdowrun friends say it's pretty good though.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Sphynx)
PS: Feel free to point out for me/them why/where/how it's more beneficial to be a Sam.


As has already been pointed out, you seem to have been being overly generous to Adepts in their allowed bonus dice. That being said, an Adept is still going to roll more dice no matter what you do, because Adepts can get +3 dice from Improved Ability, and Sammies max out at +1 die from Reflex Recorders.

Anyway, street sam are best in the stealth department. In SR4, it is really hard to hide, and really easy to hide in plain sight. Magical and Matrix observation are everywhere, and a street sam doesn't show up on it. Really, as a Street Sam you can just be a civillian and mooch on by the enormous bulk of security, something no mage, adept, or rigger can accomplish. So even though out of that group, the Street Sam rolls the fewest dice to kill people with, he's the only one who can bring it in to an unmonitored meeting with Damien Knight.

That's also where cybereyes shine. You have to check your goggles in a lot of places, but the cybereyes stay.

-Frank
Feshy
I've got to disagree... Cybereware scanners cost a LOT less than a mage, or even a ward. I'd think sams would be a lot more detectable than the adept. To be undetectable, the sam's got to have pretty subtle 'ware, and very light armament (read: hold out pistol).

Unless they can afford to pay for astral security, a mage walks in with the ability to level the room; and many adepts are walking weapons themselves. In the few cases that your employer CAN afford such measures, you can bank on walking through a cyber scanner or two first.
FrankTrollman
That's fine. A good set of ware doesn't look like crap on a Cyberware scanner.

Cyber Eyes (includes smartlinks)
Cyberears (includes Balance Augmentor)
Datajack
Muscle Toner
Synaptic Booster
Synthacardium

Yeah, that's all your money and you acting 3 times a round and rolling over 14 dice on Full Defense. Armed with a monowhip and a holdout, you can basically clear a room full of thugs all by yourself, and what shows up on a cyberware scanner as anything but civillian toys?

The stealth option is much easier for a street sam than for anyone else, and it's amazingly effective in SR4. Concealable ware + concealable weapons = horribly deadly. I know y'all are used to holdouts sucking, but that lemon squeezer is brutal in SR4.

-Frank
Cold-Dragon
The wonders of technology are often what make them out perform magic. Especially in a new world style, magic still has the 'new' tag on it.

1) anyone can end up a Sammy. Not everyone ends up a mage
2) If people figure out you're a mage, and they don't like it, there's little you can do to stop them from shooting you on sight (barring the obvious). If you're a Sammy, people know at least most of it can be disabled, or that a lot of it isn't inherently lethal, and they may let you be.
3) Sammy's aren't self-killers the way some mages can be, and replacing a cyber arm is 'easier' than replacing a real one on a mage over all (cloning takes awhile).
4) magic has issues penetrating technology - as such, technology is the only certainty against a mind probe as the spell details go. As long as you can lock it out without using a password or some key that anyone can use, they won't get it magically.
5) Enough bullets will kill anything. Bigger bullets might kill a spirit. Bombs highly recommended (and available at discount for bulk).
6) skillwires let you emulate a multitude of skills, spell skill emulation is limited to choice ones. It's harder to negate skillwires than magically gained ones.
7) it's legal (if restricted) to carry various weapons, ranged or melee. Magical spells are considered a 'no no' by default, and factors into the 2nd note.
cool.gif Johnsons feel more comfortable knowing bullets kill people. Johnsons feel more comfortable around mages when they know they can't see where they're at.

Fun fun for everyone! As far as Adepts go, they probably have it worse than both in a way - once someone knows what you an do, they will swarm you or try to exploit your weakness post haste if they want you. Depends on what your specialty is.
Skitzboy
ogbendog, The Grimoire (1st edition) is subtitled as The Manual of Practical Thaumaturgy 14th Edition, 2050, so physical adepts are present in 2050. According to the book Francis Daniels was the first publicly documented physad of modern times, and he died in 2030, so physads would be pretty well known by 2050. It just so happens that they weren't fit in to the base rulebook for whatever reason. So from a timeline standpoint, physads have always been in SR.
Jaid
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
I know y'all are used to holdouts sucking, but that lemon squeezer is brutal in SR4.

'specially if you load it up with the right ammo biggrin.gif (stick-n-shock, baby!)

of course, even more brutal IMO is the tasers... 'specially the one with wires. 8S electrical damage, usable in melee in an emergency situation also (though not concealable, it is 100% legal to own/carry apparently.)
Azralon
QUOTE (Jaid)
'specially if you load it up with the right ammo biggrin.gif (stick-n-shock, baby!)

SnS is indeed tons of fun, but the Sting can fire only flechettes.

I dunno why that's the case, but that's what the book explicitly says.
Jaid
well, the flechette rounds aren't that bad either. not as good as some of the other ones mind you, but not bad...
Shinobi Killfist
then just switch out for the streetline special, its cheaper has 1 extra shot in the clip, and its almost as concealable. Base damage is the same as the sting, it just can use any ammo.

-2 form mad detectors, I dont know if the standard -4 for being a holdout size stacks with it or not. Sure the sting is undetectable by mad detectors but the streetline special is isn't a bad choice, if you want to add a bit of risk while increasing your firepower.
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