I have completed my Psi Invention; and thought public opinion might be nice.
Tradition:
Psionicists use Intuition and Willpower to resist Drain, and cost 20 BP to play, however, they may not take the Mentor Spirit Edge, receiving instead direct benefits to their psychic powers.
Advantages:
Psionicists summon superior Watchers to other traditions, often referred to as Thought Forms, in that they may summon these spirits at a higher Force rating. Use the Following statistics for these spirits.
Full Version: Psionics
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B A R S C I L W Edge Ess Init IP F F F F F F F F F -1 F 2 3 |
Psionicists receive a +2 advantage when casting either Telekinetic or Telepathic spells. This is not limited to a specific category, and instead spread out. For a basic guideline of what should be allowed, the following list are the spells from the BBB that gain the advantage.
- Punch/Clout/Blast
- ClairAudience
- ClairVoyance
- MindLink
- Mind Probe
- ControlEmotions/MindMood
- ControlThoughts/MobMind
- Levitate
- MagicFingers
- Poltergeist
Psionicists are limited to only summoning Watcher Spirits, often referred to as Thought Forms. They may never summon Elemental Spirits.
Psionicists also suffer a -2 on all Illusion spells, and non-telekinetic Combat spells.
Psionicists are calm and relatively peaceful people, if they allow themselves to get emotional, especially in anger, they lose the +2 advantage to their spells until they re-co,pose themselves.
** Notes: The biggest problem was deciding between a Spirit Mentor/Hermetic or a new Tradition. One of my players suggested it taking both, and the group agreed that was best, hence the 20 BP cost to play, since the Mentor Spirit really isn't a Mentor Spirit at all, but grants similar advantages and disadvantages.
Thoughts?
Eh, I liked mine better. 
Consider that Thought Forms are far more limited in available powers than other types of spirit, so having only thought forms available makes things difficult for you. Also there is a distinct lack of ability to use Aid Sorcery/Study/Spell Sustainning as thought forms aren't mapped to a specific category of spells, or did you mean for them to apply to all spells?
Consider that Thought Forms are far more limited in available powers than other types of spirit, so having only thought forms available makes things difficult for you. Also there is a distinct lack of ability to use Aid Sorcery/Study/Spell Sustainning as thought forms aren't mapped to a specific category of spells, or did you mean for them to apply to all spells?
Still, the question is - why nerf psionics in SR4?
There are no more traditions, just paradigms.
There are no more traditions, just paradigms.
Eyeless, I definitely like mine better, but I'm old-school Psi and enjoyed playing with just Thought Forms. I don't believe they should have spirits, nor do I believe they should gain aid from their ThoughtForms. They get a huge bonus on the choices of spells their advantage grants, big enough that the disadvantage should be huge I think.
However, the reason I started working on this was because I wanted to 'convert' my own old 3rd ED character, and ThoughtForms don't exist. The spell advantages/disadvantages I only did for theme. It began as a unique Watcher (paid by not being able to summon any other type of spirit, just like 3rd Ed Psi) and then an indecisiveness on what 'spell category' should get a bonus.
Anyhows, I'm very happy with the idea/cost. I really don't think the Psis should be summoning elemental spirits, and definitely want my old Thought Forms.
Sphynx
However, the reason I started working on this was because I wanted to 'convert' my own old 3rd ED character, and ThoughtForms don't exist. The spell advantages/disadvantages I only did for theme. It began as a unique Watcher (paid by not being able to summon any other type of spirit, just like 3rd Ed Psi) and then an indecisiveness on what 'spell category' should get a bonus.
Anyhows, I'm very happy with the idea/cost. I really don't think the Psis should be summoning elemental spirits, and definitely want my old Thought Forms.
Sphynx
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| I really don't think the Psis should be summoning elemental spirits, and definitely want my old Thought Forms. |
They are not elementals spirits... they just reflect the different aspects of the psionic's psyche.
Psychics could view fire elementals as pyrokinetic thought forms.
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| Eyeless, I definitely like mine better, but I'm old-school Psi and enjoyed playing with just Thought Forms. I don't believe they should have spirits, nor do I believe they should gain aid from their ThoughtForms. They get a huge bonus on the choices of spells their advantage grants, big enough that the disadvantage should be huge I think. |
*shrug* To each his own I guess. Your Thought Forms definately need a few more powers though; Watchers don't get Materialization or Sapience, first off, nor do they get any of the other powers that MitS Thought forms had; without those they'll still be impossibly limited. All in all they're far worse than any single spirit type, and as they are not mapped to any spell category (again, as Watcher spirits) I assume they apply to none, meaning that Binding them is significantly less useful than for other spirits. Not that you'd want to ever bind something so useless as a thought form in the first place.
Plus I think you meant F*2 for initiative, rather than 2.
While it's true you did manage to cherry-pick some of the best spells from every category (except the Punch series, as those suck horribly), you still haven't given yourself enough of an advantage to justify the level of disadvantages you took. That's fine if you want to continue the tradition of deliberagely gimping Psionics, but I feel there's little reason to bother doing it.
I'd definitely boost the Thought Form's abilities a bit more. Materialization, Sapience, Psychokinesis, Search, Influence, Confusion, and Fear are all excellent choices. Accident and Guard are also good possibilities. Also, allow a Thought Form to provide magical services for the list of spells you mentioned.
I'd modify the -2 to Illusion to only physical illusions. The others are directly implanted into the mind, after all. I'd even consider letting them have the +2 bonus with mana illusions, with them seeing it as false sensory input. -2 to all nontelekinetic Combat spells is a *huge* limitation, probably the biggest one other than the spirit restriction, so I'd leave that as is.
And I'd absolutely drop the "must remain calm" limitation. That should be more of a roleplaying note. You've already imposed enough penalties as is, there's no reason to add more.
I'd modify the -2 to Illusion to only physical illusions. The others are directly implanted into the mind, after all. I'd even consider letting them have the +2 bonus with mana illusions, with them seeing it as false sensory input. -2 to all nontelekinetic Combat spells is a *huge* limitation, probably the biggest one other than the spirit restriction, so I'd leave that as is.
And I'd absolutely drop the "must remain calm" limitation. That should be more of a roleplaying note. You've already imposed enough penalties as is, there's no reason to add more.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| And I'd absolutely drop the "must remain calm" limitation. That should be more of a roleplaying note. You've already imposed enough penalties as is, there's no reason to add more. |
Well, so long as he's seeking to deliberately gimp his character I don't see why not. He may as well also forbid his character from banishing other types of spirit (though other mages can freely banish Thought Forms) or ever bonding or making foci, as the MitS version had those disadvantages as well.
Sphynx seems to be trying to make a mage-equivalent to a troll with four cyberlimbs; he may as well go all the way with it.
I've never had a player make aPsionic runner, but it would add some new flavor.
is the learning curve for psi's in SR-4 just as dificult in sr-3?
is the learning curve for psi's in SR-4 just as dificult in sr-3?
Thanks Cain, good suggestions. I hadn't really thought of adding 'powers' to the Watchers/ThoughtForms because I wanted their lack of spirit-power to be their big limitation, but without the Binding options of Element-Spell combos, I think you're right in that PsychoKinesis would fit in well.
The only problem being that I attempted to create ThoughtForms from Watchers without making them different in anything but Force, so a Force 1 ThoughtForm was exactly equal to a Watcher (which can only ever be Force 1) I do agree some of the powers would be fitting, but wasn't eager to change what a Watcher had.
The 'meditation' disadvantage was to mirror most Mentor Spirits. But I think you're right that the spell disadvantages are enough, I went overboard to make sure the Psi character wasn't "better" than any other tradition.
Eyeless, what the heck do you mean by:
The only problem being that I attempted to create ThoughtForms from Watchers without making them different in anything but Force, so a Force 1 ThoughtForm was exactly equal to a Watcher (which can only ever be Force 1) I do agree some of the powers would be fitting, but wasn't eager to change what a Watcher had.
The 'meditation' disadvantage was to mirror most Mentor Spirits. But I think you're right that the spell disadvantages are enough, I went overboard to make sure the Psi character wasn't "better" than any other tradition.
Eyeless, what the heck do you mean by:
| QUOTE |
| Sphynx seems to be trying to make a mage-equivalent to a troll with four cyberlimbs; he may as well go all the way with it. |
I'm sorry, but I don't understand.
Sphynx
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| The only problem being that I attempted to create ThoughtForms from Watchers without making them different in anything but Force, so a Force 1 ThoughtForm was exactly equal to a Watcher (which can only ever be Force 1) I do agree some of the powers would be fitting, but wasn't eager to change what a Watcher had. |
Well they're already not Watchers. If they were what a shame, because as they don't have Sapience they're still about as intelligent as a dog, unlike all other spirit types and in spite of their Force-created mental stats. Those mental stats are the only things that are meaningfully affected by Force, however, as their physical stats have no meaning, since watchers (and therefore your Thought Forms) cannot Materialize. In fact if thought forms have no extra powers there's no reason to have them over regular watchers at all, other than the strange case that if you use the optional rule for failing an Extended Test a normal watcher is completely incapable of ever succeeding with using his Search power (they'd get four total dice to get five successes, which is impossible).
| QUOTE | ||
Eyeless, what the heck do you mean by:
I'm sorry, but I don't understand. |
Well, mostly it was a dig. I'm not sure what you're after with these rules, but what you've created costs as many build points as a mage with a mentor spirit, but is so flat-out inferior to one that the comparison is nearly meaningless. Thought Forms as written are certainly not worth what you're giving up for them; you aren't even allowed to break the one-summoned-spirit-at-a-time with them, as you are allowed to do with Watchers, unless you use Binding, but who would bind such an ineffectual spirit? Nor are the spell advantages even equal to the disadvantages, let alone greater than them as all sr4 mentor spirits are.
You've basically taken the magical equivalent of a troll--the strongest and costliest of metatypes--and stripped everything that makes him powerful out of him and replaced it with something decidedly inferior.
Consider me Old-skool, but I personally don't like to change rules just to have an new tradition. Don't change the rules, change the flavor.
Example: Why not havong a Mentor spirit? It'S just the subconsious self of the mage/psion/whatevar.
Another Example: Why a new spirit type? Why not using stats of regular spirits and apply diffrent names?
SR4 seems to me like they tried to make everything easy. Realy easy. Why adding complexity in rules? Complex rules don't make complex/better characters. Applying SR4 tradition guidelines (notice me not saying rules) does not ruin the flair of the psion. Really, it does not.
It really helps if you played Mage:tA and understood the idea of paradigms.
BTW, I like eyeless blond's idea better. Not nearly perfect, but the right way to implement psions into SR4. But that's just my opinion. You really should think about the rules of the game, before you try to change/fix/tweak them.
Nuff said. I'm dead tired, so sorry if anyone said that already or if I offended someones Ego or whatnot. Just needed to get rid of this
P.S. If anyone finds spelling/grammar/style mistakes, keep them.
[edit] I'm using the word really really often, don't I? Damn... lack of practise ofa foreign language does suck indeed. Really Beeing up for way to much hours doesn't help either. Thanks for listening anyway 
Example: Why not havong a Mentor spirit? It'S just the subconsious self of the mage/psion/whatevar.
Another Example: Why a new spirit type? Why not using stats of regular spirits and apply diffrent names?
SR4 seems to me like they tried to make everything easy. Realy easy. Why adding complexity in rules? Complex rules don't make complex/better characters. Applying SR4 tradition guidelines (notice me not saying rules) does not ruin the flair of the psion. Really, it does not.
It really helps if you played Mage:tA and understood the idea of paradigms.
BTW, I like eyeless blond's idea better. Not nearly perfect, but the right way to implement psions into SR4. But that's just my opinion. You really should think about the rules of the game, before you try to change/fix/tweak them.
Nuff said. I'm dead tired, so sorry if anyone said that already or if I offended someones Ego or whatnot. Just needed to get rid of this
P.S. If anyone finds spelling/grammar/style mistakes, keep them.
[edit] I'm using the word really really often, don't I? Damn... lack of practise ofa foreign language does suck indeed. Really
Beeing up for way to much hours doesn't help either. Thanks for listening anyway
Eyeless, are you blind?
Seriously, how can you say that Elemental Spirits are "everything that makes him powerful"? Sure, they lose some ability by not having Elemental Spirits, but that's not where there strength is. It's quite nice to be an Astrally Projecting Psi with a small 'army' of pets that have a nice level of stats. Great bonuses on some powerful spells, and for the type of player that'd probably avoid summoning Element type spirits anyhows.
However, seems the general census is to leave the system as is, easily done, and just create a 'mentor spirit' instead of new rules (which would rule out Thought Forms as a spirit type
) So, I'll shush on the subject and keep our alternative Psionics in our game only.
Sphynx
Seriously, how can you say that Elemental Spirits are "everything that makes him powerful"? Sure, they lose some ability by not having Elemental Spirits, but that's not where there strength is. It's quite nice to be an Astrally Projecting Psi with a small 'army' of pets that have a nice level of stats. Great bonuses on some powerful spells, and for the type of player that'd probably avoid summoning Element type spirits anyhows.
However, seems the general census is to leave the system as is, easily done, and just create a 'mentor spirit' instead of new rules (which would rule out Thought Forms as a spirit type
) So, I'll shush on the subject and keep our alternative Psionics in our game only. Sphynx
Possibly there will be some kind of spirit in the new magic book that works well as a thought form. Otherwise just use an air elemental.
I'll have to say that I agree with Malicant on almost every point.
The SR4 rules seem tailored to cook up new traditions without having to meddle around with the rules: If you want to accentuate differences, do it with roleplaying.
Earth = Solid Thoughtform; Water = Fluid or Kinetic TF; Air = Ethereal TF
...I couldn't come up with a better name than what JonWK already suggested for fire elems.
The SR4 rules seem tailored to cook up new traditions without having to meddle around with the rules: If you want to accentuate differences, do it with roleplaying.
Earth = Solid Thoughtform; Water = Fluid or Kinetic TF; Air = Ethereal TF
...I couldn't come up with a better name than what JonWK already suggested for fire elems.
| QUOTE (Dogsoup) |
| The SR4 rules seem tailored to cook up new traditions without having to meddle around with the rules: If you want to accentuate differences, do it with roleplaying. |
Actually, I think 'seem' is a weak word. I belive it was more of a promise they made when they made 4th Ed. : no more 12billions kinda rules for different things. Everything is more or less canon, rules-wise, the rest is application and flavor.
No more skills that didnt exist, no more special rules for magic, etc...
The good way to see this is the new way of handling hermetic-VS-shamanic; stat-wise they are the same, only the flavor change...
So, basicly, I totaly agree with Dogsoup and Malicant.
If you want to play anything in your game that is cool.
However, being a Psionic mage under those rules is going to suck really really badly.
I think that is what they are trying to say.
Especially if they have another mage in the group, who will almost assuredly show up the Psionicist in nearly every way.
However, being a Psionic mage under those rules is going to suck really really badly.
I think that is what they are trying to say.
Especially if they have another mage in the group, who will almost assuredly show up the Psionicist in nearly every way.
I agree that every tradition should fit into the same framework.
Since it got stickied, I figure I might as well reference the old spirit conversions:
old spirits.
So you could have your "Thought Forms" be:
Knowledge Forms (Ancestor Spirits) - Detection
Energy Forms (Fire Spirits) - Health
Id Forms (Beast Spirits) - Combat
Poltergeists (Air Spirits) - Manipulation
Dream Forms (Spirits of Man) - Illusion
-Frank
Since it got stickied, I figure I might as well reference the old spirit conversions:
old spirits.
So you could have your "Thought Forms" be:
Knowledge Forms (Ancestor Spirits) - Detection
Energy Forms (Fire Spirits) - Health
Id Forms (Beast Spirits) - Combat
Poltergeists (Air Spirits) - Manipulation
Dream Forms (Spirits of Man) - Illusion
-Frank
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