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cczernia
During out last game our shaman decided to cast a force 6 Earth spirit. If I remember correctly you roll the spirits force vs the shamans summoning + magic. The mage ended up getting two hits. Drain seemed to be net hits x 2. He easily makes the drain rules.

So, I'm thinking cool, we finally get to pull a spirit into the mix. I flip to the page with the earth spirit and my mouth drops. This thing is uber badass (iniative force x 3 wtf). I play it like a see it and have the earth spirt rampage around for awhile until another shamen banished it.

I can't help but feel like I did something wrong. It seemed awfully easy to summon so badass. Did I do something wrong, is their an errata to the spirits.
fenikso
QUOTE (cczernia)
Drain seemed to be net hits x 2.

Not NET hits, but hits. p179
And beware of glitches wink.gif .
Tarko
The drain: p179 'twice the hits (not net hits) generated by the spirits (min2)'
FrankTrollman
The errata is out for spirits in german, but not for spirits in English. I on't know why, I would think that it would be pretty simple to translate the errata and put it up on the web.

The long story short is that the multiplier on Spirit Reaction scores is a typographical error. You can resume breathing.

--

Secondly, as fenikso pointed out, drain on spirit conjuring is based on the spirit's hits, not its net hits. This does, however, lead to a very binary result from attempting a summoning. If the spirit rolls very well (say 4 or 5 hits, which is entirely possible), it is likely to not show up at all. And it will cause tremendous drain when it does (8 or 10 boxes of drain, resistance is futile!) OTOH, if the spirit rolls poorly (say 1 or even no hits), the drain is meaningless and the magician probably has a pile of services to call on.

Conjuration is like playing poker. Sometimes you win. Sometimes you lose.

-Frank
TheHappyAnarchist
Speaking on that errata, it seems to say that the xs should change to +s.

That still doesn't seem right, as it gives all spirits a reaction bonus, even traditionally slow moving earth spirits get a +2 Reaction.

Seems to me that they mainly copy pasted the old spirits and put the movement multipliers in for some reason.

Anyone got some reasonable stats for spirits?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist)
Anyone got some reasonable stats for spirits?

Sure.

Spirits of Air
B A R S C I L W EDG ESS M Init IP
F2 F+3 F+2 F3 F F F F F F F (Fx2)+2 2
Astral INIT/IP: F x 2, 3
Movement: /75 (flight)
Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Dodge, Exotic Ranged Weapon, Flight, Perception, Unarmed Combat
Powers: Accident, Astral Form, Concealment, Confusion, Engulf, Materialization, Movement, Sapience, Search
Optional Powers: Elemental Attack, Energy Aura, Fear,
Guard, Noxious Breath, Psychokinesis

Spirits of Beasts
B A R S C I L W EDG ESS M Init IP
F+2 F+1 F F+2 F F F F F F F Fx2 2
Astral INIT/IP: F x 2, 3
Movement: /45
Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Dodge, Perception, Unarmed Combat
Powers: Animal Control, Astral Form, Enhanced Senses (Hearing, Low-Light Vision, Smell), Fear, Materialization, Movement, Sapience
Optional Powers: Concealment, Confusion, Guard, Natural Weapon (DV = Force Physical damage, AP 0), Noxious Breath, Search, Venom

Spirits of Earth
B A R S C I L W EDG ESS M Init IP
F+4 F-1 F-1 F+4 F F F F F F F (Fx2)-1 2
Astral INIT/IP: F x 2, 3
Movement: /25
Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Dodge, Exotic Ranged Weapon, Perception, Unarmed Combat
Powers: Astral Form, Binding, Guard, Materialization, Movement, Reach +2, Sapience, Search
Optional Powers: Concealment, Confusion, Engulf, Elemental Attack, Fear

Spirits of Fire
B A R S C I L W EDG ESS M Init IP
F+1 F+2 F+1 F-2 F F F F F F F (Fx2)+1 2
Astral INIT/IP: F x 2, 3
Movement: /40 (fl ight)
Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Dodge, Exotic Ranged Weapon, Flight, Perception, Unarmed Combat
Powers: Accident, Astral Form, Confusion, Elemental Attack, Energy Aura, Engulf, Materialization, Sapience
Optional Powers: Fear, Guard, Noxious Breath, Search
Weaknesses: Allergy (Water, Severe)

Spirits of Man
B A R S C I L W EDG ESS M Init IP
F+1 F F F-2 F F F F F F F Fx2 2
Astral INIT/IP: F x 2, 3
Movement: /25
Skills: Assensing, Astral
Combat, Dodge, Perception,
Spellcasting, Unarmed Combat
Powers: Accident, Astral Form, Concealment, Confusion, Enhanced Senses (Low-Light, Thermographic Vision), Guard, Influence, Materialization, Sapience, Search.
Optional Powers: Fear, Innate Spell (any one spell known by the summoner), Movement, Psychokinesis

Spirits of Plants
B A R S C I L W EDG ESS M Init IP
F+3 F-2 F F+4 F F F F F F F Fx2 2
Astral Init/IP:F x 2, 3
Movement: 5/15
Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Counterspelling, Dodge, Exotic Ranged Weapon, Perception, Unarmed Combat.
Powers: Accident, Astral Form, Concealment, Engulf, Fear, Guard, Magical Guard, Materialization, Sapience
Optional Powers: Confusion, Movement, Noxious Breath, Search, Venom

Spirits of Water
B A R S C I L W EDG ESS M Init IP
F+2 F F F F F F F F F F Fx2 2
Astral INIT/IP: F x 2, 3
Movement: /25 (30/75
swimming)
Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Dodge, Exotic Ranged Weapon, Perception, Unarmed Combat
Powers: Astral Form, Concealment, Confusion, Engulf, Materialization, Movement, Sapience, Search
Optional Powers: Accident, Binding, Elemental Attack, Energy Aura, Guard, Weather Control
Weaknesses: Allergy (Fire, Severe)

-Frank
Tarko
QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist)
That still doesn't seem right, as it gives all spirits a reaction bonus, even traditionally slow moving earth spirits get a +2 Reaction.

Seems to me that they mainly copy pasted the old spirits and put the movement multipliers in for some reason.

Traditionally slow moving spirits?
The way I see it, its because spirits are beings from the astral plane that juste materialise in the physical world, wich doesnt really change their true nature. Since its only manifestations, I dont see why they should move slowly.

manifestation=projecting themselves into the physical realm


For some reason? I understand the randomness of the thing, but it might be because magic is growing and as such spirits have an easier time interacting with the physical plane. just a tought.



I mean; Spirits are being from an OTHER world, alien to this one, so, for me, it make sense they should be more powerfull than your average Joe.
emo samurai
Would offering to set a spirit free be a good bargaining chip, or do they really want to go to their home plane?
Tarko
Who says a free spirit cant go back to said plane?

But remember: Its not because you are setting a spirit 'free' of your sommuning that it becomes a 'free' spirit.

Free spirits are made(?) when they achieve great powers or when something goes wrong.

I guess you could do a quest to find the true name of the spirit and in a weird way set it free... but then, it would mean that every spirit could trust (altho rather difficultly) an other being to set them free. But true names arent cannon yet...
TheHappyAnarchist
Thanks Frank, looks good from what I could see, but crappy forum alignment makes it a trick to read.
We will have to see what we can do on that.
Is there a general SR Wiki yet? Or just the NPC and Sixth World ones?


As for why Earth spirits should be slow it is not in the spirit part that they are slow, but the Earth part.
To explain myself, I see spirits as the embodiment of a concept. Be it an element, man, beast what have you. Worker ancestor, thought form, etc are all concepts.
They have certain ideals and associations that cause them to have different abilities and forms and powers.
Thus even though an astral entity has not real need to push something around and be ultra tough (Str and Bod do not exist as such on the Astral Plane) and Earth spirit none the less has substantial bonuses to these attributes in a plane in which they are used (i.e. when materialized)
The concept of the element of Earth is one of stability, enduring and might. However it is also not known for rapid movement. Thus it gets bonuses to Str, and penalties to agility, and possibly reaction.
emo samurai
What do you mean cannon? And how do you learn a true name?
Tarko
QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist)
As for why Earth spirits should be slow it is not in the spirit part that they are slow, but the Earth part.
To explain myself, I see spirits as the embodiment of a concept. Be it an element, man, beast what have you. Worker ancestor, thought form, etc are all concepts.
They have certain ideals and associations that cause them to have different abilities and forms and powers.


This pretty much falls into a tradition'point of view IMHO. Meaning: for you it might be that, for me it might be(just throwing ideas, as I more or less agree with you) That spirits are force of nature that fall short of being stoped by a heavy armored tank.


Emo:
Cannon means 'in printed rules' if I'm not mistaken.
To find the true name of a spirit you have to do a kick-ass run into his metaplanar scape of existence and do a spiritual quest to find it. Wheter by answering to some crazy HOs riddles or fighting your way throug a guardian spirit or whatever... meta-planes or REALLY up to GMs.
emo samurai
Why would one want to?
Jaid
cannon = canon.

a measuring stick or something like that is the literal meaning. essentially, if something is canon it is official, endorsed by the authors, or whatever. current SR4 canon includes the BBB, and the GM screen i think (or is it not out yet? i haven't been paying attention... )

as far as true names, well there's only two ways i know of to find a spirit's true name:

1) find another source that knows the spirit's name (be it a book, person, etc).
2) go to the metaplanes and do an astral quest. in SR3, the quest was of a rating equal to the spirit's force.
Tarko
QUOTE (emo samurai)
Why would one want to?

Spirits DONT whant their true name found out as it gives ultimate power to the one who knows it.
Darkness
QUOTE (emo samurai @ Dec 30 2005, 04:17 AM)
Why would one want to?

With the spirits true name, you have power over it.
You are even able to permanently destroy it, what you can't do without its true name (special cases like the hidden life power asside).
And you can enslave it, effectively giving you a very powerfull servant (who will likely plot behind your back, to get free again, with the option of killing you, so that you can't use its true name ever again), but powerfull nonetheless.
[Edit]Darn, Tarko was faster[/edit]
Tarko
QUOTE (Darkness)
[Edit]Darn, Tarko was faster[/edit]

Told ya, I hit 'refresh' every 2seconds nyahnyah.gif
emo samurai
Oh... Can you find the true names of people?
Tarko
That is a good one, I know that in ArsMagica you can, but as far as SR goes, I think you can, but it will 'only' help you affect them by magic /me think. You wont have the granted powers of total control upon them as with spirits.

That is MY oppinion, don't have my books with me, so I cant check.
Darkness
Ah another one who knows Ars Magica
So far (and i can only comment with SR3 knowledge so far, as Street Magic isn't out yet), you are able to get this knowlege via an astral Quest or simple research, as per SR, the True Name of a person is his or her birthname.
SOTA '64 had a metamagical technique, which allowed to use a symbolic link (such as a picture or a name) to target a person via ritual spellcasting for either to locate him or to cast a spell on her.
But no, you can't use the true name of a person, like the true name of a spirit, yet. We will see what future sourcebooks reveal.
Mr.Platinum
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist @ Dec 29 2005, 02:49 PM)
Anyone got some reasonable stats for spirits?

Sure.

Spirits of Air
B A R S C I L W EDG ESS M Init IP
F2 F+3 F+2 F3 F F F F F F F (Fx2)+2 2
Astral INIT/IP: F x 2, 3
Movement: /75 (flight)
Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Dodge, Exotic Ranged Weapon, Flight, Perception, Unarmed Combat
Powers: Accident, Astral Form, Concealment, Confusion, Engulf, Materialization, Movement, Sapience, Search
Optional Powers: Elemental Attack, Energy Aura, Fear,
Guard, Noxious Breath, Psychokinesis

Spirits of Beasts
B A R S C I L W EDG ESS M Init IP
F+2 F+1 F F+2 F F F F F F F Fx2 2
Astral INIT/IP: F x 2, 3
Movement: /45
Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Dodge, Perception, Unarmed Combat
Powers: Animal Control, Astral Form, Enhanced Senses (Hearing, Low-Light Vision, Smell), Fear, Materialization, Movement, Sapience
Optional Powers: Concealment, Confusion, Guard, Natural Weapon (DV = Force Physical damage, AP 0), Noxious Breath, Search, Venom

Spirits of Earth
B A R S C I L W EDG ESS M Init IP
F+4 F-1 F-1 F+4 F F F F F F F (Fx2)-1 2
Astral INIT/IP: F x 2, 3
Movement: /25
Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Dodge, Exotic Ranged Weapon, Perception, Unarmed Combat
Powers: Astral Form, Binding, Guard, Materialization, Movement, Reach +2, Sapience, Search
Optional Powers: Concealment, Confusion, Engulf, Elemental Attack, Fear

Spirits of Fire
B A R S C I L W EDG ESS M Init IP
F+1 F+2 F+1 F-2 F F F F F F F (Fx2)+1 2
Astral INIT/IP: F x 2, 3
Movement: /40 (fl ight)
Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Dodge, Exotic Ranged Weapon, Flight, Perception, Unarmed Combat
Powers: Accident, Astral Form, Confusion, Elemental Attack, Energy Aura, Engulf, Materialization, Sapience
Optional Powers: Fear, Guard, Noxious Breath, Search
Weaknesses: Allergy (Water, Severe)

Spirits of Man
B A R S C I L W EDG ESS M Init IP
F+1 F F F-2 F F F F F F F Fx2 2
Astral INIT/IP: F x 2, 3
Movement: /25
Skills: Assensing, Astral
Combat, Dodge, Perception,
Spellcasting, Unarmed Combat
Powers: Accident, Astral Form, Concealment, Confusion, Enhanced Senses (Low-Light, Thermographic Vision), Guard, Influence, Materialization, Sapience, Search.
Optional Powers: Fear, Innate Spell (any one spell known by the summoner), Movement, Psychokinesis

Spirits of Plants
B A R S C I L W EDG ESS M Init IP
F+3 F-2 F F+4 F F F F F F F Fx2 2
Astral Init/IP:F x 2, 3
Movement: 5/15
Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Counterspelling, Dodge, Exotic Ranged Weapon, Perception, Unarmed Combat.
Powers: Accident, Astral Form, Concealment, Engulf, Fear, Guard, Magical Guard, Materialization, Sapience
Optional Powers: Confusion, Movement, Noxious Breath, Search, Venom

Spirits of Water
B A R S C I L W EDG ESS M Init IP
F+2 F F F F F F F F F F Fx2 2
Astral INIT/IP: F x 2, 3
Movement: /25 (30/75
swimming)
Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Dodge, Exotic Ranged Weapon, Perception, Unarmed Combat
Powers: Astral Form, Concealment, Confusion, Engulf, Materialization, Movement, Sapience, Search
Optional Powers: Accident, Binding, Elemental Attack, Energy Aura, Guard, Weather Control
Weaknesses: Allergy (Fire, Severe)

-Frank

Wowo more cut and paste so i can make my own SR4 book
emo samurai
Which kind of spirit do you recommend I be attuned to?
Jaid
QUOTE (Mr.Platinum)
Wowo more cut and paste so i can make my own SR4 book

those aren't the real stats. those are houseruled.

though they are fairly close.
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