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rlemansky
Greetings.

Any definitive information on a shapeshifter's longevity? Are they immortal or even abnormally long lived? Or, are they doomed to have the same life expectancy as their unAwakened counterparts?

Jungle Cat in Aztlan, as the representative from Amazonia, seems to be afforded as much (if not more) respect as any of the other Immortals present. Since he/she admits to being an Awakened jaguar, I wondered if JC was demonstrative of the species, and/or immortal.

I know Wolvering from Marvel comics has a regeneration ability and is a few centuries old at this point as a result.

Any input appreciated...

R
Jrayjoker
I always assumed he was an immortal from the ED days. :shrug:
Critias
QUOTE (rlemansky)
I know Wolvering from Marvel comics has a regeneration ability and is a few centuries old at this point as a result.

I'm pretty sure he's only about 150. I don't recall them giving concrete dates in the "Origins" story that finally comes clean about his childhood and whatnot, but I'm pretty sure it was 1850s-1860's, IIRC.

So, I mean, it's not like he's a whippersnapper or anything. But he's also not all that terribly ancient.
Mr.Platinum
I'd say their life span is what ever counter part is.
Calvin Hobbes
Ancient History's commentary points out that Jungle Cat may not be all that ancient, merely welcome to the commentary since he's a local to Aztlan.

Likewise, shapeshifters are never indicated to be in any way longeved. A twenty-year old shifter is only twenty years old.

I'ts possible that Jungle Cat is *unique*, but there's nothing to indicate he's supernaturally ancient, either.

Either way, it's your game, run with it.
tisoz
Shapeshifters and age is a big can of worms for me. There is the already posed question of longevity, but how about apparent age in animal and human form?

The animal form might be physically mature by 1 -3 years, but is their human form then that of an infant or a mature human? I do not think it has ever been stated.

How about the old arguement can shapeshifters breed with humans?
Mr.Platinum
Hey it's happened in my Game.
brohopcp
I've always viewed them as animals with a magical human form. However, a lot of players treat them as slightly less educated humans with some super anthromorphic animal form and invincibility. However you play it, Shadowrun characters rarely have to deal with old age, so it hasn't come up yet.
Ancient History
It appears (and I may add that this has only appeared in the novels so far) that shapeshifters mature more slowly than a normal animal would, although this may still be faster than typical metahuman development. There is no reference to shapeshifters suffering the effects of old age, but there haven't been many in canon, either.
Glyph
Normally, I would say a shapeshifter would age at the rate and longevity of the "natural", animal form, but regeneration opens up a can of worms. Would a regenerating creature age at all, or at least more slowly?

I would probably rule that they mature as quickly as a normal animal of their type, but that it takes longer for their mental abilities to reach a shapeshifter's human-level intellect. And I would say that they live about as long as a non-immortal elf, until their regeneration power finally starts to give out. But that's just conjecture, since, as far as I know, this has not been officially addressed.
Dale
Personally, I figure with the Regeneration going on to limit daily wear and tear on the body that a Shifter would make it to double the human norm.
Sandoval Smith
I don't think there's anything laid down in canon about how long shifters live, so it can be whatever you feel is appropriate for the game. I'd just say go with what doesn't excessively screw over the player.
nick012000
I'd say that they live indefinately, like Immortal Elves. Most don't, and they lose their regeneration during the low mana periods, but they can live indefinately.
fistandantilus4.0
No way. Even wit hlow birth rates, if they never got old, and all regen naturally, they;d at the least over run wilderness areas. Think Yakut, but everywhere. Thin about it. Nothing would prey on them. THe more there are, the harder they would be to kll, so no one would try (much like the problems in yakut territory). And the longer they're there, the more there would be. With regeneration, it's really hard to die on accident, and I don't recall them being susceptible to oisin or disease (although I could be wrong), which means they would only die if someon or something killed them. A life span would be the only thing checking them really.
Sandoval Smith
They could certainly be preyed on by other metacreatures. If they happen to cross paths with a hungry jugguarnaut, or something.
nick012000
Well, I'll point out that there wouldn't be that many surviving the magical lows, and while some of the animals might goblinize into shifters, the numbers would still be pretty low for a while.

And once the numbers start getting really high, the increased competition for food and territory will eventually either lead to civilizations or warfare. In either case, the danger to humans would be reduced afterwards.
fistandantilus4.0
Even if they were low for a while , the mana cycle is appx 5,000 years. Even if they had low birth rates, with no aging and regen, after only a few hundred years, you'd have a few thousand, and the more there are, the mroe that will breed. Yet in ED, there is no mention of Shifters. Now you can say that since there is no info they simply didn't write them in, which makes sense. But if you take it in an in-game sense, that means that (at least in Barsaive) there's nothing like that.

If there were a shifter nation, much like Yakut, why would they war with themselves , when they can war against 'others'. Like a wolf pack. They're more likely to split off if there's conflict in the pack then kill each other off. And since shifters are animals that turn into humans, not the other way around, they;d be more likely to follow their animal instincts. Now I'm not saying that their life span wouldn't be longer. I just don't think it's going to span into centuries.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith @ Dec 31 2005, 04:42 AM)
They could certainly be preyed on by other metacreatures.  If they happen to cross paths with a hungry jugguarnaut, or something.

so if a juggernaut eats a regenerating shifter whole, how long can it just keep digesting that one before it has to eat again? wink.gif
nick012000
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith @ Dec 31 2005, 04:42 AM)
They could certainly be preyed on by other metacreatures.  If they happen to cross paths with a hungry jugguarnaut, or something.

so if a juggernaut eats a regenerating shifter whole, how long can it just keep digesting that one before it has to eat again? wink.gif

Until that shifter rolls a 1 on his regeneration test and dies. wink.gif
fistandantilus4.0
hehe.. indigestion
brohopcp
The best way I ever found to feed a ghoul was devised by a friend of mine.

1) Petrify shapeshifter
2) Make spell permanent
3) Chisel off chunks from the body
4) Drop spell, shifter regens, recast petrify
5) Eat unpetrified chunks
6) Repeat

The idea came from my friends contact who sold yard ornament statues. Most of the statues were petrified people. It was also a good contact if you needed to dispose of a body.
Mr.Platinum
So has any one found any thing Cannon about there life span?
tisoz
Nothing about shooting them with or from cannon.

Critters does not list Immunity to Age (or anything else) as a power.
Dale
Then they're not immortal.
hyzmarca
Considering that immortality appears to be a dominant trait in immortal elves (children of mortals and IEs are immortal in at least one example) more than half of the world's population should be IEs. The fact that they aren't suggests that the surviving immortals have done an exceptionally good job at keeping their pants on. Surely, shapeshifters can do the same even with their Bestial Nature.

Of course, it could be hey the immortality gene is recessive and Frosty's mother was decended from an IE. In that case, there would be millions of couples out there having IE children.
tisoz
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Considering that immortality appears to be a dominant trait in immortal elves (children of mortals and IEs are immortal in at least one example) more than half of the world's population should be IEs. The fact that they aren't suggests that the surviving immortals have done an exceptionally good job at keeping their pants on. Surely, shapeshifters can do the same even with their Bestial Nature.

Of course, it could be hey the immortality gene is recessive and Frosty's mother was decended from an IE. In that case, there would be millions of couples out there having IE children.

Going by the book where Frosty was mentioned, Harlequin, there were files kept on several families tracking them until the members died of natural causes. This could be interpreted as possible instances the IE did not keep their pants on and someone tracking the offspring to see if immortality had been passed on. IIRC, Frosty was one of the few active files.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (tisoz @ Dec 31 2005, 11:36 PM)

Going by the book where Frosty was mentioned, Harlequin, there were files kept on several families tracking them until the members died of natural causes.  This could be interpreted as possible instances the IE did not keep their pants on and someone tracking the offspring to see if immortality had been passed on.  IIRC, Frosty was one of the few active files.

If that is the case then there should be many out there with recessive IE genes who don't know it. A quick google search on the subject of the dispersal of recissive genese throughout a populaton over 150 generations has left me with a great deal of material to read. Assuming 150 generations with an average of 3 per generation and a 50% chance of passing on the gene one ends up with 2.59*10^26, more human beings than have been alive in record history. Obviously, I need to take into accound other factors. Considering this as representative of a recessive gene's ability to propagate when left unchecked by outside factors and by itself (Immortality probably wouldn't manifest in low mana), it is quite possible that everyone alive has a little bit of IE DNA without knowing it and a full half have a recessive immortality gene.

It only takes one unbroken tree to produce billions of genetic offspring after 100+ generations. Don't forget, everyone is related to everyone and we're all black (and apperantly IEs).
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Obviously, I need to take into accound other factors. Considering this as representative of a recessive gene's ability to propagate when left unchecked by outside factors and by itself (Immortality probably wouldn't manifest in low mana), it is quite possible that everyone alive has a little bit of IE DNA without knowing it and a full half have a recessive immortality gene.

I've always thought that it wasn't just a single immortality gene, but the effect of several genes working in concert.
fistandantilus4.0
it should also be mentioned that when a shapeshifter gives birth , it isn't always a shifter. Take the novel The Forever Drug. The main character Romeulus (sp?) sires a number of pups with (IIRC) a german shepard, and all of her pups are mundane. Conversely, he was born from a wolf, but the rest of the litter was mundane, where he was a shifter.

But like it was said, they don't have Immunity(age), so the question is pointless to pursue to the point of immortality. Long life I can certainly see though. IIRC, the shifter from Forever Drug seemed to age at the same rate as a human, but then again, so do elves, until they stop in their 20's. So.. who knows. Personally, I think I'd give 'em a life span closer to a dwarf. Kind of arbitrary really, but I see it as balancing the longer life span of something that regens against the life span of a normal animal.
Ed Simons
QUOTE (Glyph)
Would a regenerating creature age at all, or at least more slowly?

Well, resistance to injury and speed of recovery are not tied to agespan in the setting. Otherwise dwarves would live longer than elves, orks would live longer than dwarves, and trolls would be the longest lived of the metahumans.

I've assumed shifters age at the animal rate until sexual maturity after which they age at human rates.
Ed Simons
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
If there were a shifter nation, much like Yakut, why would they war with themselves , when they can war against 'others'. Like a wolf pack. They're more likely to split off if there's conflict in the pack then kill each other off. And since shifters are animals that turn into humans, not the other way around, they;d be more likely to follow their animal instincts.

There are problems with the wolf pack model for a shifter nation and that is because of the very animal instincts you mention.

First, most of the shifters don't come from social species - bears, eagles, foxes, leopards, seals, and tigers have no concept of pack. Second, the different species are all carnivores, save for the omnivorous bears. They would be in direct competition over food animals and in many cases the natural species actually prey on each other in the wild.

Mr.Platinum
QUOTE (Ed Simons)
QUOTE (Glyph)
Would a regenerating creature age at all, or at least more slowly?

Well, resistance to injury and speed of recovery are not tied to agespan in the setting. Otherwise dwarves would live longer than elves, orks would live longer than dwarves, and trolls would be the longest lived of the metahumans.

I've assumed shifters age at the animal rate until sexual maturity after which they age at human rates.



Who the maturity theory there break it down for me brother, i'm liking what i hear.
SpasticTeapot
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Considering that immortality appears to be a dominant trait in immortal elves (children of mortals and IEs are immortal in at least one example) more than half of the world's population should be IEs. The fact that they aren't suggests that the surviving immortals have done an exceptionally good job at keeping their pants on. Surely, shapeshifters can do the same even with their Bestial Nature.

Of course, it could be hey the immortality gene is recessive and Frosty's mother was decended from an IE. In that case, there would be millions of couples out there having IE children.

From what I recall, it's random. The children of immortal elves are only very slightly more likely to be an IE than any other elf. In theory, it could be a combination of a few different recessive traits and the lack of a few others. (In other words, IE's are like people who had hair at birth, a third nipple, red hair, and a webbed left hand. They're spectacularly rare. Also, IEs who are'nt 26th level initiates can die quite easily.
Mr.Platinum
I guess Ed did'nt make his theory for me yet.
Pendaric
As an awakened animal, were's can presumably live to a specified bracket of age not due to regeneration but due to metabolism. The awakened power specified to reconstruction not cellular decay.
The instinctive impluses might give a boost to learning specific skills, which in turn might mean they probibly live shorter life spans.
However, this thread is concerned with theoretical life span. One look at the metahuman averages sums up how long creatures get to survive in hostile environs.
As predetors, shifters would likely have a high attrition rate/low population even with their bonuses.
Theres plenty of folklore that would indicate a slightly longer than human life span but this was during human society at susistance level.
I'd would advise a top end human life span barring leonisation and misshap.
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (tisoz)
Going by the book where Frosty was mentioned, Harlequin, there were files kept on several families tracking them until the members died of natural causes. This could be interpreted as possible instances the IE did not keep their pants on and someone tracking the offspring to see if immortality had been passed on. IIRC, Frosty was one of the few active files.


Actually I think it points to the fact that a majority of immortal elves are gay.

Sorry, I'll only post constructive comments from now on...To return to topic, I would guess at the lifespan of shifters to be rather short. Otherwise with their ability to regenerate they would suffer few deaths in regard to accidents and environment. In only a short time, they would have a massive population. (a litter of kittens that regenerate)

Now if they breed infrequently and produce only a few offspring in their lifespan, that's another story.
hyzmarca
If regeneration works on damage caused by radiation and oxidation over a long period of time then it is certain that Shifters would have long life spans. Not possessing Immunity to age means that they will eventually expire but regeneration ensures that the little things that hasten human demise will do nothing to them.
Deamon_Knight
Frosty, has it been determined that Shifters Breed true? I don't know for sure, but i'm guessing not. Otherwise you would be correct, but I thinks it much more likely that Shifters, like the IEs, don't breed true.
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
Frosty, has it been determined that Shifters Breed true? I don't know for sure, but i'm guessing not. Otherwise you would be correct, but I thinks it much more likely that Shifters, like the IEs, don't breed true.

I don't think it has been determined one way or the other. Personally, I feel it's just another type of UGE, but if it isn't, I'd guess they would have to have the breeding habits or lifespan I was mentioning.
PiXeL01
I dont know if the novels Striper Assassin and Who Hunt the Hunter could shed any light on the suject. It has been a while since I read those books, but in it Striper mates with whats-his-name in beastform and they hae a cub. I cant remember if in the beginning of Who Hunts the Hunter says anything about how old her cub is.

Anyone recall?
tisoz
IIRC, previoyusely when this topic was discussed, someone proposed that shapeshifters age at the normal rate for the form they are in, meaning at the animal rate when in animal form and at the human rate when in human form.

This theory answers how the animal can be physically mature but not at preschool age in human form. It helps those that want to roleplay shapeshifters, by giving the shapeshifter a reason to assume human form, to prolong their life, and in turn a reason to integrate with humanity.
Czar Eggbert
I believe that they mention the aging problems for shifters in The Forever Drug. The main character is a wolf shifter.
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