His in-game justification is that he will spend the money on charitable works and good deeds
Full Version: Cash for Karma
One of my mages wants to trade in cash for Karma points. What's a reasonable exchange rate? I'm thinking... someone wrote up a system of chargen based on Karma, so I can work an exchange rate from there.
His in-game justification is that he will spend the money on charitable works and good deeds
His in-game justification is that he will spend the money on charitable works and good deeds
Assuming your going to allow it (I wouldn't) I say at least 5kY per point.
Well, if you roleplayed out these 'charitable works' and 'good deeds', how much karma would you give him? If I'm giving out 4 karma for highly dangerous assignments, he'd be lucky to get 1 karma for working a homeless kitchen (unless it was in the Barrens or something nasty...)
Anyhows, I hate to say this because I'm always the first to attack people who answer mechanics questions with "roleplay it" type answers, but I think you should give karma based on the deed. Donating to Red Cross = 0 Karma, feeding the homeless from your own pocket in the Barrens a bit more (and perhaps a 1-on-1 session to earn the karma through some risk...
)
Anyhows, I hate to say this because I'm always the first to attack people who answer mechanics questions with "roleplay it" type answers, but I think you should give karma based on the deed. Donating to Red Cross = 0 Karma, feeding the homeless from your own pocket in the Barrens a bit more (and perhaps a 1-on-1 session to earn the karma through some risk...
)
You could design a different kind of run.
Tell your players that you can have runs that pay well, or runs that net lots of karma (or other non-monetary rewards).
Money runs would come from the usual suspects -- corps, disgruntled employees/spouces, ect.
Karma runs would be friend-of-a-friend type runs (My friend really needs X done but we don't have much money...) or self-motivated (background) runs. Karma runs would also have a high potential for gaining new contacts, or increasing the level of existing contacts. For more karma-heavy runs, design them so that the players have to use more stuff or buy specialized gear, so they are effectivly trading money for karma, but get a run while doing it.
Example:
Tony is a numbers runner for the mob, but his money got jacked. Since he was dating the bosses's cousin's daughter, Tony got a break: 24 hours to find and retrieve the money (without using mafia resources), plus make the person who took it pay. Tony is just a numbers runner, and doesn't have the kind of skill to do that (otherwise he wouldn't have had the money taken in the first place). He doesn't have much money (or he would replace the lost money himself, to avoid termination of employment), so he calls his friend, an enforcer who just happens to know the fixer who the players frequent.
The players will have to spend some money gathering information quickly, they will have to spend some money on whatever crazy trick they decide to pull to get the guy. They have to spend money on ammo and medical bills. They will probalby have to bribe Star to not show up.
End result, they spend a bit of money, get a new contact, who has mob connections and can probably help them get into contact with fixers who can get them new toys, and they really didn't get paid.
Tell your players that you can have runs that pay well, or runs that net lots of karma (or other non-monetary rewards).
Money runs would come from the usual suspects -- corps, disgruntled employees/spouces, ect.
Karma runs would be friend-of-a-friend type runs (My friend really needs X done but we don't have much money...) or self-motivated (background) runs. Karma runs would also have a high potential for gaining new contacts, or increasing the level of existing contacts. For more karma-heavy runs, design them so that the players have to use more stuff or buy specialized gear, so they are effectivly trading money for karma, but get a run while doing it.
Example:
Tony is a numbers runner for the mob, but his money got jacked. Since he was dating the bosses's cousin's daughter, Tony got a break: 24 hours to find and retrieve the money (without using mafia resources), plus make the person who took it pay. Tony is just a numbers runner, and doesn't have the kind of skill to do that (otherwise he wouldn't have had the money taken in the first place). He doesn't have much money (or he would replace the lost money himself, to avoid termination of employment), so he calls his friend, an enforcer who just happens to know the fixer who the players frequent.
The players will have to spend some money gathering information quickly, they will have to spend some money on whatever crazy trick they decide to pull to get the guy. They have to spend money on ammo and medical bills. They will probalby have to bribe Star to not show up.
End result, they spend a bit of money, get a new contact, who has mob connections and can probably help them get into contact with fixers who can get them new toys, and they really didn't get paid.
is there rules for this in SR4? i know the SR3 shadowrun companion did.
No rules yet.
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| Well, if you roleplayed out these 'charitable works' and 'good deeds', how much karma would you give him? If I'm giving out 4 karma for highly dangerous assignments, he'd be lucky to get 1 karma for working a homeless kitchen (unless it was in the Barrens or something nasty...) Anyhows, I hate to say this because I'm always the first to attack people who answer mechanics questions with "roleplay it" type answers, but I think you should give karma based on the deed. Donating to Red Cross = 0 Karma, feeding the homeless from your own pocket in the Barrens a bit more (and perhaps a 1-on-1 session to earn the karma through some risk... ) |
If people only ever earned karma for physically dangerous activities, hardly anyone would have any skills (IRL, for instance). Karma isn't just a matter of surviving dangerous jobs and overcoming the odds to live and see the next day -- it's first and foremost a game mechanic, used to measure experience and learning potential.
If someone's willing to hinder themselves by giving away the financial compensation that is all most Shadowrunners are interested in, they should receive something for it, and any addition RP done "on the side" should be a seperate scenario/reward/beast entirely.
Cash for karma can be as simple as attending university or martial arts classes, where you're giving up money and learning something new. That's one of the more literal translations of it -- you're very literally paying, financially, for the opportunity to learn -- but if someone's playing a "do-gooder" sort of game where noble deeds and Robin-Hood style heroics are rewarded, I don't see why someone giving away thousands of nuyen to the needy shouldn't be similarly rewarded.
I would tend to avoid this. If anything, the opposite is more sensible (I have as of yet to see anyone in any game be able to pay for a reasonable cyberware upgrade. The same is not true of karma expenditures.)
If you DO decide to go with it, I'd advise two things:
1) Make the exchange rate unfavorable. $5k for 1 karma is suggested, but for a mage who doesn't have a lot to buy, that's pretty cheap. $10 or $15k will make him consider a little more. I had one GM who rolled 2d6 at the end of the run, multiplied it by $1,000 and said that was the price until you finish the next run.
2) Limit how much can be bought at once. 5 is a good cap, but I'd consider lowering it further.
Remember, you can always lower the limits later if they don't seem to be tempting enough with no harm done. But if you start out with the limits too low to begin with and raise them later, the players may feel a nice thing is being taken away from them (even if rationally they agree with the decision). It is easier to give than to take away.
If you DO decide to go with it, I'd advise two things:
1) Make the exchange rate unfavorable. $5k for 1 karma is suggested, but for a mage who doesn't have a lot to buy, that's pretty cheap. $10 or $15k will make him consider a little more. I had one GM who rolled 2d6 at the end of the run, multiplied it by $1,000 and said that was the price until you finish the next run.
2) Limit how much can be bought at once. 5 is a good cap, but I'd consider lowering it further.
Remember, you can always lower the limits later if they don't seem to be tempting enough with no harm done. But if you start out with the limits too low to begin with and raise them later, the players may feel a nice thing is being taken away from them (even if rationally they agree with the decision). It is easier to give than to take away.
Mages want foci and spell formula just as much as sammies want chrome and guns. Sammies want skills and attributes just as much as Mages want skills and Initiations and whatnot.
Everyone wants lots of both, in other words.
Why have different prices for cash to karma (or karma to cash, for that matter), based on what "archetype" someone's playing?
Everyone wants lots of both, in other words.
Why have different prices for cash to karma (or karma to cash, for that matter), based on what "archetype" someone's playing?
I never used a fixed rate, when I GM'd, I'd allow a mage character to trade up to 33% of his payout for up to 33% more awarded Karma in previous editions (so a run where the Mage netted 3K and 3 Karma could translate in to 2K and 4 Karma). I'm going to wait for Street Magic to publish before I decide on continuing this practice or if I'm changing my percentages based on the Karma cost of advanced magic. I also used to allow it to go the other way (Cash for Karma) for Riggers & Deckers (since they were NuYen blackholes in previous editions)
I think Karma is for learned, or experienced events. That being said, you could donate your time and money to learning / experiencing more. As has been said, I would not allow a player to just donate 10,000 new yen to a generic worthy cause, but if the character combined his time and skill with his money, I could see it. maybe once per month a character can donate 10,000 new yen and his time to a cause or learning experience (school, helping children of Redmond, working with your magic group, working with the red cross as a security guard, teaching english or japanese as a second language). A role (probably a knowledge skill) is then rolled, for every two hits 1 karma is gained. If a player roles a glitch, maybe they get hurt or get people angry at them.
Just an idea, I know everyone will have their own way of dealing with it (if they allow it at all).
Just an idea, I know everyone will have their own way of dealing with it (if they allow it at all).
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| Mages want foci and spell formula just as much as sammies want chrome and guns. Sammies want skills and attributes just as much as Mages want skills and Initiations and whatnot. Everyone wants lots of both, in other words. Why have different prices for cash to karma (or karma to cash, for that matter), based on what "archetype" someone's playing? |
I've never changed costs based on archetypes. Sams pay as much as mages. However, mages do not crave foci and spell formula half as much as sams want chrome, nor do they (foci and formulas) cost a quarter of the price. And from what I've seen, while skills are certainly important, in the sam/decker/rigger vs. mage/adept race, it comes down to money vs. karma. Yes, each side wants both resource, but one group needs one far more than the other to advance. Since money generally seems to be what's in short supply, it's already in favor of the karma monsters. If you see your mages advancing faster than your deckers, do you really want to give them what they need to advance EVEN FASTER?
Of course, this really comes down to how you reward your runs, how your players act, so on and so forth. My group is karma rich and monetarily poor. The most vicious munchkins are mages. If your sams find they can upgrade a piece of alphaware to beta about as often as your adept initiates, it would sound like there's a reasonable balance (or perhaps even too much cash). If your mage buys four spells while the decker acquires one program, perhaps making more karma available isn't the most prudent route to follow.
I generally find that allowing the purchase of money for karma costs less than the reverse. I do not use the same exchange rate for each. $10k for 1 karma and 1 karma for $4k is reasonable, in my eyes.
Watch out for awarding characters 3K nuyen or around that range.
It can come back and bite you in the butt if they start lifting cars, making illegal code, or just mugging gangers for organs and chrome.
Who has the sig here again?
It can come back and bite you in the butt if they start lifting cars, making illegal code, or just mugging gangers for organs and chrome.
Who has the sig here again?
When it comes to cash-for-Karma, I feel that if any real game mechanics are involved, it should be based on a character's net worth; cash AND sellable goods AND cyber/bioware. It avoids people getting a discount for donating 95% of their cash while sporting Beta-ware Wired Reflex 3 and driving a Mitsubishi Nightsky.
IMO, it should be based on the player's intentions and the character's assets. Munchkins get nada (unless they are too subtle to set off the GM's BS alarm), and the PC will have to make a meaningful sacrifice to get 'life experience' so easilly.
IMO, it should be based on the player's intentions and the character's assets. Munchkins get nada (unless they are too subtle to set off the GM's BS alarm), and the PC will have to make a meaningful sacrifice to get 'life experience' so easilly.
| QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist @ Jan 3 2006, 01:07 PM) |
| Watch out for awarding characters 3K nuyen or around that range. It can come back and bite you in the butt if they start lifting cars, making illegal code, or just mugging gangers for organs and chrome. Who has the sig here again? |
I'm well aware of that, the 3K was for easy math. That being said our group tends to run a sort of low power game, so payouts much over 10K per are rare, and self directed runs are a bit more common.
I very much like allowing my players to trade back and forth between karma and cash. It is an easy mechanic that can represent what characters do with their downtime with no fuzz.
See: Most of the time I simply say the character´s side activities (like selling their bodies, selling incriminating photographs, robing people or whatever they tend to do) breaks even with any upgrades, repairs and stuff they might have to do to keep what they got. Upkeep costs are too tiresome to keep track of, as is side earned money.
Trading cash for karma may represent paying a teacher in whatever skill you spend the karma on. Or simply living a bit higher, getting your healthy nutrients and good exercise. Trading karma for cash may represent working a bit harder at your side job. It gives a bit more flexibility and gives roleplaying opportunities by indicating what the characters might have done in the downtime, without complicating recordkeeping.
What the rate should be should be decided by the GM. It depends on how much money the group tends to get compaired to how much karma they get. As someone else said; It should not be common place for all characters to exchange most of their money for karma, and at the same time getting all the toys they want. That would mean something is wrong.
See: Most of the time I simply say the character´s side activities (like selling their bodies, selling incriminating photographs, robing people or whatever they tend to do) breaks even with any upgrades, repairs and stuff they might have to do to keep what they got. Upkeep costs are too tiresome to keep track of, as is side earned money.
Trading cash for karma may represent paying a teacher in whatever skill you spend the karma on. Or simply living a bit higher, getting your healthy nutrients and good exercise. Trading karma for cash may represent working a bit harder at your side job. It gives a bit more flexibility and gives roleplaying opportunities by indicating what the characters might have done in the downtime, without complicating recordkeeping.
What the rate should be should be decided by the GM. It depends on how much money the group tends to get compaired to how much karma they get. As someone else said; It should not be common place for all characters to exchange most of their money for karma, and at the same time getting all the toys they want. That would mean something is wrong.
One might consider making a cash for chance sort of thing rather than simply direct pay or similar. Heck, you can make it for anything they invest nuyen int othat has a chance of karma, be it training or donating or etc. Once they do it, you do some sort of random roll to see if they get karma and/or how much. You could make it a success test with a limit or maybe use a threshold test.
just a thought.
just a thought.
I've done cash for Karma in one campaign before. The price was 3d6 x 1000 
. The amount was agreed on by the players, and a decent amount of Karma was bought.
I set a limit of 5 Karma bought per run, and it didn't count towards Good Karma.
It worked out well, but that may be due to the players. I didn't notice any real major leaps forward, or any sudden "balance issues".
It should perhaps be noted that at the time the rule went into effect, the characters had an average of 200 Karma each. 5 extra Karma per run may seem excessive to brand new characters, but at 200+, it has a lot smaller effect
. The amount was agreed on by the players, and a decent amount of Karma was bought.I set a limit of 5 Karma bought per run, and it didn't count towards Good Karma.
It worked out well, but that may be due to the players. I didn't notice any real major leaps forward, or any sudden "balance issues".
It should perhaps be noted that at the time the rule went into effect, the characters had an average of 200 Karma each. 5 extra Karma per run may seem excessive to brand new characters, but at 200+, it has a lot smaller effect
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