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We all know the mechanics of the magical society karma break for initiation and the forging of the magical link decisive in this process.
The disadvantages to creating this link or joining a society non inclusive of you magical stlye are listed and self evident.
So the classical teacher to student trasition of knowledge from old/experienced (mage/shaman/Hougan/pys Ad -initiates) is equally transparent.

So my question:
I have difficulty with a realistic explaination for a cross-tradtion group containing, for arguments purposes, a traditional shaman, an oriental based martial pys Ad and lab coat hermetic helping one another to achieve easier initiation.
If there was a shared belief system they all follow, a structure that another sharing those beliefs could logically advise on? Then it is simple.
Specific powers of each style could be refered to an appropiate master of the correct path.

How then does the odd group (or similar) in example one help one another, when half of the time they are argueing on how magic itself works?

The only ones I have surmised so far is, reaffirmation from justified personal beliefs and open minded lessons from another point of view.
This excludes adept only powers being taught by a shaman or mage and meta magic which can be taught cross tradition, for this debate anyway.

Finally ladies and gentelmen, I am barring anything resembaling, "It's because of the Avatar." argument.
Though a great roleplay tool it's existence does not offer an explaination. An aid to personal epiphany not it's sole recourse, so not the full story.

Thanking you in advance.
I think you'll find me, "Harsh but fair. Actualy mostly harsh."
[Extra credits for nailing the above quote.] biggrin.gif
Actually, it would be a constant "Devil's Advocate" debate, and could easily be quite constructive. Rather than have everyone in the group thinking the same things about magic, everyone is viewing Magic in a completely different way. This means that they are having different problems and have different solutions. If one person can only see red letters and another person can only see blue letters, you'll be able to read a lot more text than if everyone can only read blue letters.

Science, at least, works best when people view things from radically different points of view. It means that there are lest universal assumptions and that evidence can be evaluated more objectively.

As born out by the Renewed Hermeticism vs Classical. Or UMT vs RH?
However personal evolution as opposed to open minded investigation, derived from opposing/ radically different magical pyshics?
I conceed to tangable problem's solution or theory break though but I stop short of internal comprehension on one's own belief's. Otherwise it promotes UMT as current pinnicle that still dosent help for example a shaman grow closer to the world and his totem?
MK Ultra
The followers of the Universal Magical Theory will prefer such constellations obviously. But it really depends on the characters of the PC/NPCīs involved.

You canīt put absolute dogmatics of opposite directions into one group, itīll break.
also a uniform group may work better in many situations, i.e. ritual sorcery or sharing spells and skillknowledge, even resources (one lodge works for all the members). So this will definitely be more common.
On the other hand, some people from different traditions may put up a magical group, just because, they like each other, are of the same social entity (church, cult, corp, runnerteam, terrorist cell, policlub, ...) or because they did not find sombody else. This can be, as Frank posted, rather fertilizing, also it may be a good base for scientific research and they are much more versatile. This group will have a harder time with the basic stuff however.

So, it depends, what you are locking for. As alluded to by the UMT, magic has one single source, it is only style and interpretation, that sets traditions apart. However, a pole, an american and a german can have a beer together, even if the pole calls it pivo and the german bier.
Shamans are tremendously intuitive -- hermetics are immensely logical.

How can one help the other? Well... Shamans can provide new paths for the hermetic to follow. Intuition -- inspiration.

Hermetics, on the other hand, tend to follow one path, and so can give the shamans more ways to integrate things to their view. New avenues that aren't immediately obvious. "You know, have you ever considered this facet of your totem? There's a whole bunch of literature on how a corrosponds to b.."
They say one of the best ways to become more comfortable with your own language is to learn other languages, IRL, don't they? By exploring how another culture formats their sentences, you gain a better appreciation and understanding of how your language does the same, that sort of thing -- it's not too much of a stretch to apply the same principle to learning magic.
If they knew each other for a long time, it could be something as simple as friendship. Their magical system might be different, but their common friendship binds them together. The hermetic understand the intellectual value of friends, the shaman knows the emotional bonds and the phys-ad enjoys the physical company. Their avatar could look like Jennifer Aniston and be called Friends.
MK Ultra
@toturi rotfl.gif
Joey the Pythargorean Hermetic
Chandler the talking way PhysAd
Ross the Lion-Shaman

Gunther would be a good Talismongerer

But what about the other two girls?
There was something mentioned in one of the magic books, on creating a magical group.

a) there can be entities that regardless of tradition (say spirits) help discount the karrma spent to intiatiate, and probably skim some for themselves.

b) ritual magic use and ley lines, after awhile a area can become aspected towards then (think background count that helps them and hurts others)


Regardless of traditions some aspects of magic are at least partially universal.
The most likely scenario for a cross or omni tradition group would likely be an academic or pure research scenario. A Think Tank or university perhaps. A group of this sort would probably include many different traditions sop they could all go on quests for knowledge, compare notes, and publish research papers (and in all likelihood live quite comfortably).

The other likely possibility would be shadow types thrown together by desperation and circumstance, joining together to try to protect themselves from other magic groups.
I actually agree with Trollman.
The only ones I have surmised so far is, reaffirmation from justified personal beliefs and open minded lessons from another point of view.

There is a point in the mastering in any skill where the view point of another skill will help broaden and further that skill.
However am looking at individuals who are still learning their own discipline, who have yet to achieve that event horizon of mastery where all other skills bring greater strength to their own. At this stage other precepts of how the entire universe works are confusing.
So how does a Hougan help a psy Ad jump higher or punch large sections out of walls, than the Adept practising by himself?
How does the Adept help the Hougan better contact the Lao and channel more mana?

practicalities. question.gif
[Though the discuss of the umbrella of thaumaturgical theory and potential of the Sixth World is one of great interest to me. wink.gif]

The question is not how these odd groups form but how they help their members. ?
The manifold difficulties could be overcome with the mentioned qualities and in part that can be responsible for the group members developement. Am hoping for more, feels like I have missed something.

The research group point is a good one though Renraku went with two seperate teams in the same section, one shamanic and one hermetic, for competative gains and as control measure. I suppose there was the ease issue to.
Remember, the Odd Coven was not just a smash trid show... it was also a recipe book for how to produce the ideal initiatory group... for those who could read between the lines.
QUOTE (Pendaric)
So how does a Hougan help a psy Ad jump higher or punch large sections out of walls, than the Adept practising by himself?
How does the Adept help the Hougan better contact the Lao and channel more mana?

The Hougan is used to channelling power he doesn't have control over (when he's mounted by a Loa).. that strikes me as similar to the PhysAd's gifts in the sense of learning how to keep the conscious mind from resisting the magic flooding the PhysAd's form.

"No, I can't do that!" "Yes, you can -- quit fighting the magic inside you!"

Admittedly, it's an extreme version, but it can be taken down to minor levels.
A case by case example it would seem is the only way to go. As is always the way.
The comparative lack of response however seem to indicate that the question is one that is a tad too taxing.
Ergo the reality maybe that though possible in the rule system and to an extent within the game world, it practically speaking should not offer the initiation karma break for long.
Perhaps for the first, even the second grade, of initiation this mixed grouping would bear fruit, then the individuals would have to voyage alone to seek out other masters of their paradigm. After sometime of self mastery, when ready, return to find the gaps in their own theoretical frame work by examining others.

This way the beliefs that allow them to channel mana allow A to B thinking, then they grow to understand that the link between A to B is AB, so then form theories to find BC to eventually find C (where C is a magical epipheny).
Thus examine the differences between what they can do and that of other traditions to find the information on how to do what ever C stands for. wobble.gif

It is hard to believe that it easier to establish a magical global datum for the Sixth world that to answer this anomily more fully.
Any late takers before I shelve this?
Ergo the reality maybe that though possible in the rule system and to an extent within the game world, it practically speaking should not offer the initiation karma break for long.

Actually, if we were in to that kind of realism, it might be better to suggest that maybe characters should be required to have other traditions in their magical group if they want to progress past a certain point. While certainly initially difficult, a hermetic and a houngan are going to have a lot of discussions before they even know what the other is talking about, there's just only so much you can learn from people who have the same ideas that you have.

Shadowrun mimics the first problem (establishing a connection is harder if the group allows more than one tradition), but it doesn't address the second problem at all. Possibly it's because characters in Shadowrun never really get far enough in Magic for that to come up. The Seers Council can initiate you into the deeper secrets of divination 14 times and can probably give out a few more metamagics besides (Sympathetic Magic certainly, probably some others as well). I've never seen any player ever get that high ever, so it's just not a big deal.

Sure, eventually you'd need to go outside your specialty to get advice from a new viewpoint before you could continue growth in magic, but that cap isn't meaningfully present in a Shadowrun game.

If you are closed minded enough to think that your path is the only one you don't have what it takes to open up your spirit in the way it takes to channel more Astral energy.

I guess it boils down to what you think people do IN a magic group. Think of it like a support group for magicians. When you wield magic you are dealing with an latered state of reality all the time. You are a creature of dual realities, constantly living in two worlds at once. It can be kind of rough to deal with. Especially if you are relatively new to the experience. Dealing with spirits and the rush of the Astral Planes can be taxing on a psyche and a soul. But, in the presence of your magical group this is the normal state of being. Everyone there have an intimate relationship with magic. It helps to surround yourself with these people, share experiences and ideas.

Magic is also an organic energy. It resonates from life and conciousness and subconciousness. A group of people who work together to allign the flow of these energies in concord can learn how to channel these energies with greater facility and acuity.

None of these factors really have much to do with tradition. It has more to do with shared experience and cooperation.
Thanks everyone for your contributions.
I do not mean to demean (however I am leaning towards arrogant talker.gif) but I have not found any proposition here that I did not cover in my first post.
The only ones I have surmised so far is, reaffirmation from justified personal beliefs and open minded lessons from another point of view.

I have a holistic approach to my Ref'ing demanding that i answer questions that will likely never enter play, simply so I know how my SR world works in entirety. I believe i owe my players more than a, "Because I say so and I am REF!."
They deserve a well researched, well reasoned and consistent, "Because I say so and I am REF!" biggrin.gif

That I now have so thanks again.
emo samurai
Not only will it allow them to learn new ways of solving problems, discussion will force them to think and mentally scramble to affirm their own paradigms. This will get them to view their traditions less as a tradition than an actual process of the mind, which of course will lead to better and stronger magic.
My sincereist congratulations Emo for so succinct a reappraisal of what I stated in first and quote of same in my last post.
In both cases, former and latter, I appologise for the minimalist stance of phasing. It was styled in this manner for time, space and perhapes a small requirement of meditation. I have of late been indulging in far to many oriental texts recently.
OK Pendaric, I'm going to try to make this as polite as possible:

Did you really make a thread demanding that other people explain how you could, in a "realistic" fashion explain how a group of people with extremely different views could help each other learn and grow in ways other than the provable fact that contact with people with extremely different viewpoints is provably helpful to the learning and growing process?


Seriously, thank you for wasting all of our times. Yes, talking with people who don't share your worldviews can teach you a lot. Faith untested is worthless. And so on and so forth. That's not what Pendaric was looking for, so there is literally nothing to see here!

I do appriciate the input, I know I am harsh and I know I could of spent two pages to make what i was looking for more detailed. I have thought alot about this, weigh every word before I post and I mean every post.
So again thank you everyone.
I obviously did not make self understood or I would not of seen constant reiteration.
Also I apologise for dragging this thread to the top again.
It has been a waste of time all round.
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