I miss the combat pools of SR3, so I've changed the rules of Edge, and thought I would share it with everyone.
Edge - is different. Instead of being luck, this is the sheer energy and efficiency that one learns through experience. It's one thing to be skillful and another to learn how to capitalize on those skills while using the last amount of energy/effort. Roll the amount of dice equal to your skill. If two attributes are being used, use the lower number. Edge can be used once per entire test (extended tests w/multiple rolls can only use edge once)
1. Before a roll. All 6's are rerolls
2. After a roll. Only 6's on edge is a reroll.
3. Burn 1 edge to get 3 successes. If you wish to burn more than 1 edge, then each point burned provides 2 successes. Cannot get more successes than skill.
Purchasing Edge: Purchase at 5 BPs per point. 5 Karma in actual game. There is no maximum, but at character creation can only have max 6, (humans 7)
What this means is that you may end up with characters with 20 edge. This represents being able to capitalize on energy by the experience gained through actually going through missions. It's the difference between a 18 year old who is very skillful in combat but hasn't seen it, and the 40 year old veteran who has learned to be more economical. Plus this makes higher scores in skills even more worth it.
Full Version: A new way to handle Edge..
The reason why I mention the combat pool is because of the potential to have quite a bit of edge, it can be used more tactical. I was also thinking that edge may refresh every game morning that the character gets a full nights sleep. So in a way, edge will represent the extra energy they contribute. So on days where sleep is poor, perhaps only 1/2 edge is gained, or none at all..just a thought!
You realize that there is no point for any combat character to ever buy anything other than edge.
Edge 20 for instance. That would take 30 BP and 70 karma.
In return, on twenty rolls per session you can have 20 dice + normal pool. That is 7-8 hits (with exploding 6's) on top of what you would normally get.
You may want to think more carefully about your house rule, mainly the one that makes Edge so cheap (Edge is already amazing good) and the one that makes Edge unlimited.
Edge 20 for instance. That would take 30 BP and 70 karma.
In return, on twenty rolls per session you can have 20 dice + normal pool. That is 7-8 hits (with exploding 6's) on top of what you would normally get.
You may want to think more carefully about your house rule, mainly the one that makes Edge so cheap (Edge is already amazing good) and the one that makes Edge unlimited.
| QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist @ Jan 10 2006, 11:31 AM) |
| You realize that there is no point for any combat character to ever buy anything other than edge. Edge 20 for instance. That would take 30 BP and 70 karma. In return, on twenty rolls per session you can have 20 dice + normal pool. That is 7-8 hits (with exploding 6's) on top of what you would normally get. You may want to think more carefully about your house rule, mainly the one that makes Edge so cheap (Edge is already amazing good) and the one that makes Edge unlimited. |
Hmm, I do see what you're saying, but there would be a starting max of 6, or 7 for humans, and the amount of dice rolled depends on skill..so it could potentially take 14 adventures (spending all on edge) to have 20 edge. And edge dice is limited by skill, so if you have combat pistols (4) then use 1 edge (even if you have..say 14) will only give you 4 dice to roll. So I wussified edge quite a bit by limiting dice to skill, but also allow people to eventually buy greater amounts. In this way it can be used more strategically and more often. So in that way, they will want to up their skills since edge is only as powerful as the skills you are using.
Hopefully I explained it well.
Does this make sense, or does it still sound too crazy?
| QUOTE (ruvidan) |
| Edge - is different. Instead of being luck, this is the sheer energy and efficiency that one learns through experience. It's one thing to be skillful and another to learn how to capitalize on those skills while using the last amount of energy/effort. |
Two points:
1) Edge is luck
Luck favors the prepared, and by extension Edge is a measure of a character's street wisdom. NPC Edge is based off of his/her/its "Professional" rating.
So you don't have to view Edge as the supernatural "favor of the gods" if you don't want to. It can just represent how well a character keeps his head in the game, or the valuable experience of a veteran.
2) Increasing the power of Edge
Don't do it. Edge is exceedingly potent per the RAW right now, as an SR4 design edict was to use Edge as a balancing factor for those people who didn't want to go implant-crazy or ride the magic train.
Obviously, feel free to houserule whatever you like, but I strongly suggest you not try to rebuild Edge in this way (if at all).
I'll agree with that edge works just fine as is.
We had a situation last night where one of our group members brought down an invisible security mage with a blind shot by using edge. She had 1 remaining die after the -6 blind fire modifier, used a point of edge to get back to 3 dice and ended up with 4 total successes (3 net I think, the mage was invisible he did not use dodge skill, why would he when the Sam/Hacker had just missed with 2 consecutive shots and now the combat medic was taking a wild shot). So while it was a pretty incredible piece of rolling I think it illustrates the luck factor and the power of edge quite well (It also happened to keep the whole mission from going south by getting bogged down in an extended gun battle).
We had a situation last night where one of our group members brought down an invisible security mage with a blind shot by using edge. She had 1 remaining die after the -6 blind fire modifier, used a point of edge to get back to 3 dice and ended up with 4 total successes (3 net I think, the mage was invisible he did not use dodge skill, why would he when the Sam/Hacker had just missed with 2 consecutive shots and now the combat medic was taking a wild shot). So while it was a pretty incredible piece of rolling I think it illustrates the luck factor and the power of edge quite well (It also happened to keep the whole mission from going south by getting bogged down in an extended gun battle).
If you wanted to bring back the combat pool you could do it in better ways. What you are suggesting will no doubt break your game.
How about this: Because all rolls are now made with a dice pool made from adding Attribute+Skill, you already roll as many dice as you would rolling with a good chunk of combat pool in SR3. We want to make combat more tactical, but we donīt want to create the same problematic difference in the amount of dice we throw in and out of combat that we had in SR3. I propose you introduce new old rating. The Combat Pool no less. Perhaps derived from Agility+Logic+Reaction+Intuition+Edge or whatever. Itīd have to be huge not to run out too quick when you are under attack from multiple enemies. The maximum dice you can spend on one test is Agility+Edge. If you spend the max you get the exploding dice as a bonus, but you are concidered to have spent a point of Edge. This way you keep the same core mechanic, but add a level of complexity. (Youīd have to experiment with the size of the Combat Pool so that the average test has the same amount of dice as a out of combat test.)
How about this: Because all rolls are now made with a dice pool made from adding Attribute+Skill, you already roll as many dice as you would rolling with a good chunk of combat pool in SR3. We want to make combat more tactical, but we donīt want to create the same problematic difference in the amount of dice we throw in and out of combat that we had in SR3. I propose you introduce new old rating. The Combat Pool no less. Perhaps derived from Agility+Logic+Reaction+Intuition+Edge or whatever. Itīd have to be huge not to run out too quick when you are under attack from multiple enemies. The maximum dice you can spend on one test is Agility+Edge. If you spend the max you get the exploding dice as a bonus, but you are concidered to have spent a point of Edge. This way you keep the same core mechanic, but add a level of complexity. (Youīd have to experiment with the size of the Combat Pool so that the average test has the same amount of dice as a out of combat test.)
hey thanks for all the responses. You're right..I suppose I'm looking to find a better way to incorporate the strategy of SR3 Combat pools back into the game. It's not that I'm trying to redefine edge so much as to figure out a way to bring back the SR3 pools. there was a strategic element about DP that I really dug. hey thanks for the idea about how to bring back the combat pool too.. I see where you're going with this.
Again thanks all for the responses, I see what you all are saying.
You're right..I suppose I'm looking to find a better way to incorporate the strategy of SR3 Combat pools back into the game. It's not that I'm trying to redefine edge so much as to figure out a way to bring back the SR3 pools. there was a strategic element about DP that I really dug. hey thanks for the idea about how to bring back the combat pool too.. I see where you're going with this.Again thanks all for the responses, I see what you all are saying.
I've got an idea that I'm throwing around. All 6's reroll, even before Edge. But with Edge, if it's used before a roll, will reroll all 5's, and if it's used after a roll, only the Edge will have rerolled 5's. Then again, this might make normal combate WAY too random.
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| I've got an idea that I'm throwing around. All 6's reroll, even before Edge. But with Edge, if it's used before a roll, will reroll all 5's, and if it's used after a roll, only the Edge will have rerolled 5's. Then again, this might make normal combate WAY too random. |
Let's take a look at this by using an example (modifiers aside).
Char A) StreetSam(with errata) from p. 101: Agilitiy 5(7), Reaction 4(6), Edge 2, Pistols 4
Char B) Corporate Security Guard from p.275: Agility 3, Reaction 4, Edge 2 (<- Professional Rating), Pistols 1
The following table shows the probabilities that the attacker (on the left) hits the defender (on the right). Depending on the rules used (Normal or Alternative).
Edge is applied before the roll.
| CODE |
Situation Dice Normal Alternative ________________________________ ___________ ___________________ A shoots at B: 11 vs. 4 84.32% 83.18% B shoots A: 4 vs. 6 21.70% 25.05% __________________________________________________________________ A(/w Edge) shoots B 13 vs. 4 92.57% 92.05% B(/w Edge) shoots A 6 vs. 6 45.96% 49.13% A shoots B(/w Edge) 11 vs. 6 64.71% 63.03% B shoots A(/w Edge) 4 vs. 8 11.06% 13.22% __________________________________________________________________ A(/w Edge) shoots at B(/w Edge) 13 vs. 6 80.14% 79.25% B(/w Edge) shoots at A(/w Edge) 6 vs. 8 28.69% 31.44% |
The changes are not quite as random as one might suspect.
You may notice, that , generally spoken, those with more dice are penalized in a manner of loosing a small percentage compared to the normal system, while those with fewer dice are boosted a little.
Interpret those values as you like.
The means change very little.
But to put Emo's concern that it will make combat "way too random" into mathematical terms, he's concerned that this will significantly increase the standard deviation of your expected number of successes, even if the mean changes are balanced for everyone.
So even if the basic odds of opposed success are unchanged, the odds of more extreme cases such as one character beating another by a large amount do change.
Now I'm at work and I do not have the time to work out the standard deviations. If someone else wants to, I'd be interested to see it, because I really don't know how large of a change there would be there.
Also, while the expectation of opposed tests doesn't change since both characters are using exploding d6's, the odds of standard success tests goes up, of course, so all non-opposed tests become slightly easier with this system.
note: not to de-value Darkness's work here. The comparison of means was very informative and useful.
But to put Emo's concern that it will make combat "way too random" into mathematical terms, he's concerned that this will significantly increase the standard deviation of your expected number of successes, even if the mean changes are balanced for everyone.
So even if the basic odds of opposed success are unchanged, the odds of more extreme cases such as one character beating another by a large amount do change.
Now I'm at work and I do not have the time to work out the standard deviations. If someone else wants to, I'd be interested to see it, because I really don't know how large of a change there would be there.
Also, while the expectation of opposed tests doesn't change since both characters are using exploding d6's, the odds of standard success tests goes up, of course, so all non-opposed tests become slightly easier with this system.
note: not to de-value Darkness's work here. The comparison of means was very informative and useful.
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| The means change very little. But to put Emo's concern that it will make combat "way too random" into mathematical terms, he's concerned that this will significantly increase the standard deviation of your expected number of successes, even if the mean changes are balanced for everyone. So even if the basic odds of opposed success are unchanged, the odds of more extreme cases such as one character beating another by a large amount do change. Now I'm at work and I do not have the time to work out the standard deviations. If someone else wants to, I'd be interested to see it, because I really don't know how large of a change there would be there. |
Ah a fellow mathematician (<- i'm doing such stuff as a hobby, i'm not a pro
)While i haven't calculated the standard deviations for opposed tests yet (which is quite a feat, i have them for success tests.
Let's take a look :
| CODE |
Normal Dice in a Success Test Number of Dice 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Exp. Value 0,33 0,67 1,00 1,33 1,67 2,00 2,33 2,67 3,00 3,33 Std. Deviation 0,38 0,50 0,61 0,73 0,86 0,99 1,11 1,22 1,33 1,42 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Exploding Dice (exploding on a 6) in a Success Test Number of Dice 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Exp. Value 0,40 0,80 1,20 1,60 2,00 2,40 2,80 3,20 3,60 4,00 Std. Deviation 0,40 0,80 1,20 1,60 2,00 2,40 2,80 3,20 3,60 4,00 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Special Exploding Dice (exploding on a 5 and 6) in a Success Test Number of Dice 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Exp. Value 0,50 1,00 1,50 2,00 2,50 3,00 3,50 4,00 4,50 5,00 Std. Deviation 0,75 1,50 2,25 3,00 3,75 4,50 5,25 6,00 6,75 7,50 |
So, judging by this - and assuming no error in my calculations - it seems that Exploding Dice are already quite erratic, but the Special Exploding Dice seem to bounce like crazy.
Taking this into account, changing the rules to the mentioned alternative System would indeed turn dice rolling into a very random thing.
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| So you don't have to view Edge as the supernatural "favor of the gods" if you don't want to. It can just represent how well a character keeps his head in the game, or the valuable experience of a veteran. ... as an SR4 design edict was to use Edge as a balancing factor for those people who didn't want to go implant-crazy or ride the magic train. |
I see Edge this way, too. When the first anouncement ot Edge was out, it remindet me of Ghost in the Shell. The scene when the former Cop (Ishikawa i think) askes the Cybermajor (Kusanagi) why she requested him for her team. Very shortened, her answer was "overspecialize, and you breed in weekness". She sayed that all of her Team being cybered up to the scalp made them predictable, so she mixed in an allmost uncybered police man.
Since the first anouncement, it got stuck in to my head, that unsybered mundanes should be able to have higher Edge then cybered and moyoed chars. While this is somehow the case with Magic, since it eats up much Karma, there is nothing that hinders a chunk of metal to have max. edge.
So Iīm serioucly toying with the idea to lower the Edge cap in relation to getting more moyoed, resonanced or cybered. I just donīt know how to finetune it.
My current idea is, to lower the Edge cap by:
Magic/2
Resonance/2
Essenceloss*/4
*before adjusting it due to customization and before deviding the lower loss from cyber/bio by 2.
I think this is fair and it reflects, that people who have some very defined and powerfull means, tend to be less versatile in there tactics and less on ther toes. When you can handel allmost everything you encounter with your moyo, res or implants, you will slowly start being less "on Edge", becaus you donīt need to, mostly. On the other hand, if you are a nonimplanted mundane, youd better have a damn high Edge and be attentive bordering paranoia, for this one moment, when your boosted friends canīt save your ass.
So, what do you think about this?
Darkness: Nice work! Your calculations confirm my intuition. IMHO, the standard explodie dice are random enough, and extra-explodie is just too random. As always, YMMV. Some people might want that level of randomness.
MK Ultra: Intriguing. Most intriguing. I like this idea a lot. This could be the beginnings of a way to make an uncybered mundane....playable! Still probably not as effective as the street sam or the mage, but perhaps somewhat less laughably unplayable.
This deserves more discussion, I think. I'm going to need to think about it for a while.
MK Ultra: Intriguing. Most intriguing. I like this idea a lot. This could be the beginnings of a way to make an uncybered mundane....playable! Still probably not as effective as the street sam or the mage, but perhaps somewhat less laughably unplayable.
This deserves more discussion, I think. I'm going to need to think about it for a while.
Thanks, I think Iīll open a new thread on this, after doing a bit of numberscrunching.
As stated above my calculations for exploding and superexploding dice where for successtest, where the results are quite random with superexploders.
I have finalized my calculation for opposed rolls, and was surprised to find, that both exploding and superexploding dice remain quite stable.
The following table includes the expected nettohits (ExVal) and the standard deviation (Std.D) for those nethits.
I have finalized my calculation for opposed rolls, and was surprised to find, that both exploding and superexploding dice remain quite stable.
The following table includes the expected nettohits (ExVal) and the standard deviation (Std.D) for those nethits.
| CODE |
Case Dice Normal Rules ExVal Std.D |Alternative ExVal Std.D ------------------------------ -------- ------------ ----------- +----------- ----------- A shoots at B: 11 vs. 4 84.32% 2 1 | 83.18% 3 | 2 B shoots A: 4 vs. 6 21.70% 0 1 | 25.05% 0 | 1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ A(/w Edge) shoots B 13 vs. 4 92.57% 4 2 | 92.05% 5 | 3 B(/w Edge) shoots A 6 vs. 6 45.96% 1 1 | 49.13% 1 | 2 A shoots B(/w Edge) 11 vs. 6 64.71% 2 1 | 63.03% 2 | 2 B shoots A(/w Edge) 4 vs. 8 11.06% 0 0 | 13.22% 0 | 1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ A(/w Edge) shoots at B(/w Edge) 13 vs. 6 80.14% 3 2 | 79.25% 4 | 3 B(/w Edge) shoots at A(/w Edge) 6 vs. 8 28.69% 1 1 | 31.44% 1 | 1 |
Interpret them as you like.
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