I've always had a problem with how the borders in Seattle work, especially with respect to the Barrens. In many areas the border between the SSC and Seattle doesn't have a natural divider. Much of Redmond, for example, has a highway dividing it from Salish. And if I recall correctly other areas have rivers, but what about areas like Puyallap? I can't see any natural divider, and find it hard to envision a fence being built along the border of one of the roughest areas of Seattle. So what gives? How do the Salish keep the Sprawl dwellers from spilling over into their territory?
Am I wrong in envisioning the Salish area around Seattle as being sparsely populated?
Full Version: Seattle Border Crossing
if my memory serves me correct, i think smugglers haven should have some info.
| QUOTE (Maxxi) |
| I've always had a problem with how the borders in Seattle work, especially with respect to the Barrens. In many areas the border between the SSC and Seattle doesn't have a natural divider. Much of Redmond, for example, has a highway dividing it from Salish. And if I recall correctly other areas have rivers, but what about areas like Puyallap? I can't see any natural divider, and find it hard to envision a fence being built along the border of one of the roughest areas of Seattle. So what gives? How do the Salish keep the Sprawl dwellers from spilling over into their territory? Am I wrong in envisioning the Salish area around Seattle as being sparsely populated? |
In our game it's a lot like the Mexican Border, poorly maintianed chainlink fence. As for the population question the areas Directly North and South of Seattle are fairly built up Urban areas.
Tulalip is a present day city on the North Side of Ebey Slough from Everett (and mostly on the Tulalip reservation). The Tulalip Tribe has recently built a Huge Casino on the north side of town along I-5, there isn't a break in the sprawl from Everett until the towns of Sylvania and Arlington about 10 miles north. To the
South of Fort Lewis is Washington States present day Capital of Olympia, a fair size city on it's own.
Securing the Eastern Border of Seattle would be more difficult. The population is a bit more sparse in these areas and the foothills of the Cascade Mountains come almost to the Border, infact a good part of the eastern half of Redmond comes right up to them. There are towns out there but they are not large.
Southeast of Auburn is likely quite a wasteland, the Eruption of Mount Rainier would have created a massive Lahar (picture a Tsunami made of mud traveling down river at 60-100 mph) or more likely a couple going down different river systems. The Kent Valley is where one of those Lahars would have finally lost velocity where the valley spreads out.
The Salish nation in Eastern Washington, Idaho, British Columbia, & western Montana is quite a bit less densely populated than the area immediately surrounding Seattle, with a few major exceptions.
Vancouver BC is a major city, and I believe is described in NAN vol 1 as the economic center of the Salish nation.
Spokane is another major city, Bellingham the Salish Capital is a fair size city as well.
The other Vancouver on the North Bank of the Columbia was a suburb of Portland, how it faired as a town bordering the Tir is anyone's guess.
The major Islands in the San Juan Archipeligo are probably still pretty well inhabited as well.
Given the Comparatively Liberal immigration rules the Salish Sidhe nation adopted it's fairly likely that they have allowed a lot of commuter workers.
They also probably still get a lot of income from tourist type activities as well, things like Eco-Tourism, the Tulalip Casino, Pleasure Boating in the San Juans, Skiing. It would be unlikely the Salish mind if you come to their lands to spend your money if you follow their rules while you are there.
Granted Smugglers could have a tough time getting in to and out of Seattle. The Salish inherited quite a few Coast Guard and Navy Bases, and a few Army and Air Force Installations as well, and the Makah who run most of the Military, while not being Sioux Wildcats are certainly competant professionals. The Cascade Ork tribe does make a Nuyen or two operating smuggler stopovers in the North Cascades......
Well that's how it is in our game anyway
Wouldn't the Cascade Orks/Crows have problems with people from the Barrens, Redmond especially squatting on the less inhabitated parts of their land?
| QUOTE (Maxxi) |
| Wouldn't the Cascade Orks/Crows have problems with people from the Barrens, Redmond especially squatting on the less inhabitated parts of their land? |
Certainly with the ones who didn't contribute anything to them or who stole from them. But even the Area east of Redmond is Populated enough where the squatters would have to be pretty unobtrusive or be rounded up and dumped back on their side of the border (or incarcerated or in the case of the rather shady sounding Cascade Ork sold or worse)
Shadows of North America details Border Crossing Ratings and gives a better idea of what kind of security measures you can expect. So you'd have more details on the Seattle Borders in the book.
Passport please... thank you. Buisness or pleasure? Ok. Stay out of Redmond, away from the Glow, and have a nice stay. 
I have always imaging Seattle being surrounded by a huge concrete wall and the border crossings were heavily armed check points. Here and there along the wall sensors would be located and sometimes have spirit or drone patrols.
The chainlink fench is much cheaper though.
The chainlink fench is much cheaper though.
No, that's Denver.
It just seems illogical to me in some respects, because I don't see Federal Agents standing on the borders of the Barrens at fenced checkpoints.
I can imagine a concrete divider, and check points along highways, but long expanses of chainlink fences doesn't seem right to me.
I guess I could imagine the ghettos of the Salish springing up along the border, but still they need to have some physical distinction between borders. I've read Smugglers Havens and Shadows of North America (which is my favorite Shadowrun book BTW) many times, and to this day still have trouble envisioning what the Seattle border physically looks like.
I can imagine a concrete divider, and check points along highways, but long expanses of chainlink fences doesn't seem right to me.
I guess I could imagine the ghettos of the Salish springing up along the border, but still they need to have some physical distinction between borders. I've read Smugglers Havens and Shadows of North America (which is my favorite Shadowrun book BTW) many times, and to this day still have trouble envisioning what the Seattle border physically looks like.
| QUOTE (Fix-it) |
| Passport please... thank you. Buisness or pleasure? Ok. Stay out of Redmond, away from the Glow, and have a nice stay. |
Unfortunately Violet's been in the Glow. For some reason Ares had a med facility there and she got some Custom implants courtesy of the GM who messed up her concept totally.
Is there a fortified border between the Barrens ( Z zone ) and the rest of Seattle?
No.
no, but it does have a rather large mobile force of drones and patrol units ensuring undesireable people don't cross the border into the more upscale neighborhoods.
Since I've got some time on my hands today... The Seattle Salish border tour!
Warning this is pretty long.
Starting with the Fort Lewis district. The southwest corner of Seattle if you will is defined by the the Nisqually River meeting Puget Sound. The southern I-5 Border crossing leading to Olympia is very near to this area, and can be quite busy with Gaeatronics traffic. The south border follows the Nisqually river upstream (southeast towards Mount Rainier) until it hits highway 507. 507 defines the eastern boundary of the Fort Lewis District with the Puyallup District. At some times of the year the Nisqually river can be running quite high and be fairly dangerous to cross, other times of the year it would be swimmable, maybe even shallow enough to be crossed on foot at some points. The eruption of Mount Rainier undoubtedly sent a torrent of mud down the Nisqually, which is probably mostly settled after 60 years, but the large open expanse could be easily monitored by blimp type drones. In the puyallup district the Nisqually river continues to define the Southern border until just before it reaches the town of LaGrande.
Northwest of LaGrande the border runs across 3500 feet of ground not defined by any natural boundary. This is very rural and uneven ground, in 2006 still mostly forested with scattered structures. The Town of LaGrande is right on the Nisqually and most likely is abandoned and half buried in mud after the Ghost Dance. The Salish Border then follows Highway 161 North and East right through the center of the small town of Eatonville. There is in 2006 only a small separation between the Puyallup South Hill Sprawl and the town of Eatonville, by 2012 with the current pace of development the separation will be gone.
After slinslicingonville in two the Salish Border picks up an old rail line and heads North following the rail line towards Lake Kapowsin. The line ends there so the border follows the Orville Road north until the Puyallup River is reached (this would be another river choked with Volcanic Mud after the Ghost Dance) where the border turns and follows the river upstream to the Southeast until it makes a sharp bend to the east, and then back to the south. At the bednbendk to the south the Border continues east and slightly north over open country for about 3.15 miles, defining the southern border of the Hell's Kitchen area of Puyallup until it hits (the remains of) Highway 165, which it then follows North.
The present day Mount Rainier National Park has it boundary only about a mile from 165. This is fairly rugged ground anywhere off the road to the east, though to the west it flattens out pretty quickly in to the Hell's Kitchen environment. The border follows 165 North past Carbonado, Wilkeson, splits the town of Buckley in two (note the Salish Half of Buckley is very likely an Anglo Reservation) before reaching Highway 410 south of Enumclaw.
410 defines the Northern border of the Puyallup district. In the Auburn district 165 and 410 briefly merge and the border follows them north until it reaches the White River. The border turns and follows the White River upstream a short distance until the White River and Highway 410 are running parallel to the east, where the border turns north and goes from the WHite River to 410 and heads back West towards Enumclaw, this defines the "Auburn Bulge". Just before the Border reaches Enumclaw it turns north following an old rail line past the towns of Cumberland, Bayne, Palmer, and Kanaskat.
At Kanaskat the Rail turns and heads Northwest, the border follows until the rail bends sharply to the south, the border continues along the Retreat-Kanaskat road until it reaches Georgetown. At georgetown the border once again turns North following 276th Avenue Southeast until it meets Landsburg Road Southeast then the border follows Landsburg Road over the Cedar River (past the Cedar River Pipeline which provides fresh water to Seattle) until it once again meets 276th Avenue Southeast which it follows north past Hobart until it reaches Highway 18. Highway 18 defines the northern boundary of the Auburn District and the Southern of the Renton District.
To the east of most of this part of the border are the Cascade Foothills, described as Crow Territory in the Shadows of North America. The Border follows Highway 18 North east until it hits I-90. I-90 defines the Southern Border of the Redmond District. Just a few miles from the border crossing point at Upper Preston on I-90 are the Salish small cities of Snoqualmie and North Bend. The Snoqualmie Falls are a major tourist attraction, and housing developments continue to grow in to the Cascade foothills above Snoqualmie. A little further East up at the top of Snoqualmie Pass is the Snoqualmie Summit Ski Area (Which the Snoqualmie Tribe would now operate as it would be their major source of income).
Back to the border tour. After the crossing station at Upper Preston the border briefly follows the north side of I-90 west until it reaches Preston (which is on the Salish side of the border). Here the border turns Northeast and follows the Preston-Fall City Road until it reaches Fall City, where it becomes Highway 203 which defines the Eastern Border of the Redmond District all the way north past the towns of Pleasant Hill, Carnation, Novelty, Duvall, and High Rock until it Reaches Highway 2 at Monroe. Security around this part of the border is unusually tight because of the presence of the old Washington State Penitentiarywhich Lonestar now owns and operates (how did they overlook this thing in the Sourcebooks?).
The border follows Highway 2 Northwest past the town of Snohomish towards Everett (the Everett Snohomish District Boboundaryere is Highway 9). At Everett the Border turn north and follows the Snohomish River to Puget Sound. The cities of Marysville and Tulalip sprawl out north of Everett all the way to Arlington and Stanwood. The Everett border is likely to be extremely busy with Commuter Traffic as the Tulalip tribe operates a large Casino and Shopping center just north of Everett. Regular commuter even have a special lane where they are subjected to less scrutiny because they have extensive records already on file with the border authorities. In this zone being a Seattleite isn't likely to get you much notice, but if you go North of Arlington and Stanwood, or east of Marysville you will draw much more attention.
The Western boundary of Seattle and the Salish is somewhat nebulous as it is a water boundary. Basically it heads west out of the mouth of the Snohomish, splits the bay between Everett and Tulalip, turns and follows the middle of the channel between Everett and Whidbey Island goes South through Puget sound splitting it roughly in half, turns slightly east running between Seattle and Vashon Island. A place of interest on the Salish Side of the border is Blake Island, the tillicum Tribe operates a "Salish Experience" retreat called Tillicum Village with a tour boat that departs from the Downtown Seattle waterfront. (in RL it's an expensive tour with a dinner and entertainment) and heads to Blake Island where (depending on your level of purchase) you either stay for the afternoon, dinner, or even a few nights on an undeveloped island learning a bit about Salish culture, crafts, and traditions.
South of Blake and Vashon Island the Border follows the center of the channel past Tacoma, west around Point Defiance, then South again under the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, the only road crossing out of Seattle to the west and the Makah's territory and straight towards the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard so the Makah guard this fairly closely. Past the Narrows the border runs fairly tight to the shore until it reaches the mouth of the Nisqually river.
Warning this is pretty long.
Starting with the Fort Lewis district. The southwest corner of Seattle if you will is defined by the the Nisqually River meeting Puget Sound. The southern I-5 Border crossing leading to Olympia is very near to this area, and can be quite busy with Gaeatronics traffic. The south border follows the Nisqually river upstream (southeast towards Mount Rainier) until it hits highway 507. 507 defines the eastern boundary of the Fort Lewis District with the Puyallup District. At some times of the year the Nisqually river can be running quite high and be fairly dangerous to cross, other times of the year it would be swimmable, maybe even shallow enough to be crossed on foot at some points. The eruption of Mount Rainier undoubtedly sent a torrent of mud down the Nisqually, which is probably mostly settled after 60 years, but the large open expanse could be easily monitored by blimp type drones. In the puyallup district the Nisqually river continues to define the Southern border until just before it reaches the town of LaGrande.
Northwest of LaGrande the border runs across 3500 feet of ground not defined by any natural boundary. This is very rural and uneven ground, in 2006 still mostly forested with scattered structures. The Town of LaGrande is right on the Nisqually and most likely is abandoned and half buried in mud after the Ghost Dance. The Salish Border then follows Highway 161 North and East right through the center of the small town of Eatonville. There is in 2006 only a small separation between the Puyallup South Hill Sprawl and the town of Eatonville, by 2012 with the current pace of development the separation will be gone.
After slinslicingonville in two the Salish Border picks up an old rail line and heads North following the rail line towards Lake Kapowsin. The line ends there so the border follows the Orville Road north until the Puyallup River is reached (this would be another river choked with Volcanic Mud after the Ghost Dance) where the border turns and follows the river upstream to the Southeast until it makes a sharp bend to the east, and then back to the south. At the bednbendk to the south the Border continues east and slightly north over open country for about 3.15 miles, defining the southern border of the Hell's Kitchen area of Puyallup until it hits (the remains of) Highway 165, which it then follows North.
The present day Mount Rainier National Park has it boundary only about a mile from 165. This is fairly rugged ground anywhere off the road to the east, though to the west it flattens out pretty quickly in to the Hell's Kitchen environment. The border follows 165 North past Carbonado, Wilkeson, splits the town of Buckley in two (note the Salish Half of Buckley is very likely an Anglo Reservation) before reaching Highway 410 south of Enumclaw.
410 defines the Northern border of the Puyallup district. In the Auburn district 165 and 410 briefly merge and the border follows them north until it reaches the White River. The border turns and follows the White River upstream a short distance until the White River and Highway 410 are running parallel to the east, where the border turns north and goes from the WHite River to 410 and heads back West towards Enumclaw, this defines the "Auburn Bulge". Just before the Border reaches Enumclaw it turns north following an old rail line past the towns of Cumberland, Bayne, Palmer, and Kanaskat.
At Kanaskat the Rail turns and heads Northwest, the border follows until the rail bends sharply to the south, the border continues along the Retreat-Kanaskat road until it reaches Georgetown. At georgetown the border once again turns North following 276th Avenue Southeast until it meets Landsburg Road Southeast then the border follows Landsburg Road over the Cedar River (past the Cedar River Pipeline which provides fresh water to Seattle) until it once again meets 276th Avenue Southeast which it follows north past Hobart until it reaches Highway 18. Highway 18 defines the northern boundary of the Auburn District and the Southern of the Renton District.
To the east of most of this part of the border are the Cascade Foothills, described as Crow Territory in the Shadows of North America. The Border follows Highway 18 North east until it hits I-90. I-90 defines the Southern Border of the Redmond District. Just a few miles from the border crossing point at Upper Preston on I-90 are the Salish small cities of Snoqualmie and North Bend. The Snoqualmie Falls are a major tourist attraction, and housing developments continue to grow in to the Cascade foothills above Snoqualmie. A little further East up at the top of Snoqualmie Pass is the Snoqualmie Summit Ski Area (Which the Snoqualmie Tribe would now operate as it would be their major source of income).
Back to the border tour. After the crossing station at Upper Preston the border briefly follows the north side of I-90 west until it reaches Preston (which is on the Salish side of the border). Here the border turns Northeast and follows the Preston-Fall City Road until it reaches Fall City, where it becomes Highway 203 which defines the Eastern Border of the Redmond District all the way north past the towns of Pleasant Hill, Carnation, Novelty, Duvall, and High Rock until it Reaches Highway 2 at Monroe. Security around this part of the border is unusually tight because of the presence of the old Washington State Penitentiarywhich Lonestar now owns and operates (how did they overlook this thing in the Sourcebooks?).
The border follows Highway 2 Northwest past the town of Snohomish towards Everett (the Everett Snohomish District Boboundaryere is Highway 9). At Everett the Border turn north and follows the Snohomish River to Puget Sound. The cities of Marysville and Tulalip sprawl out north of Everett all the way to Arlington and Stanwood. The Everett border is likely to be extremely busy with Commuter Traffic as the Tulalip tribe operates a large Casino and Shopping center just north of Everett. Regular commuter even have a special lane where they are subjected to less scrutiny because they have extensive records already on file with the border authorities. In this zone being a Seattleite isn't likely to get you much notice, but if you go North of Arlington and Stanwood, or east of Marysville you will draw much more attention.
The Western boundary of Seattle and the Salish is somewhat nebulous as it is a water boundary. Basically it heads west out of the mouth of the Snohomish, splits the bay between Everett and Tulalip, turns and follows the middle of the channel between Everett and Whidbey Island goes South through Puget sound splitting it roughly in half, turns slightly east running between Seattle and Vashon Island. A place of interest on the Salish Side of the border is Blake Island, the tillicum Tribe operates a "Salish Experience" retreat called Tillicum Village with a tour boat that departs from the Downtown Seattle waterfront. (in RL it's an expensive tour with a dinner and entertainment) and heads to Blake Island where (depending on your level of purchase) you either stay for the afternoon, dinner, or even a few nights on an undeveloped island learning a bit about Salish culture, crafts, and traditions.
South of Blake and Vashon Island the Border follows the center of the channel past Tacoma, west around Point Defiance, then South again under the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, the only road crossing out of Seattle to the west and the Makah's territory and straight towards the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard so the Makah guard this fairly closely. Past the Narrows the border runs fairly tight to the shore until it reaches the mouth of the Nisqually river.
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