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Skippy
Hey all,

I'm gradually getting up to speed on sr4 'wireless world' rules, but there are some lingering things I'm trying to work out so that I can finish my character for my game this weekend.

AR perception. P. 209 says that this can be achieved via things like image links, soundlinks, touchlinks, AR gloves, glasses, headset, etc... connected to your commlink. However, after a few paragraphs of detailing these ways that people access AR, it states that the easiest and most common way to get your "AR fix" is to use Simsense.

Now, an internal commlink comes with a sim module built in. I'm assuming that this is all I would really need to access AR then, right? If I DIDN'T have an internal commlink, I'd need either my external commlink + an external sim module + trodes or a datajack or something OR my external commlink + an internal sim module (DNId to my nervous system...) right?

I was looking through the sample characters (which aren't usually all that helpful, unfortunately) but I noticed that many of them have no audio gear but have sim modules... is this the way that they are like, receiving phone calls, hearing audio signals that they have messages, etc? Or are they not able to hear those things?

Honestly, my character has the Sensitive System flaw and I'm trying to minimize the amount of Cyberware that he'd have crammed into his system. I don't want to take things that are just redundant.

Thanks!

Skippy
MK Ultra
Regarding the audiostuff, every comlinke (like cellphones with mp3-players nowerdays) comes with simpel earplugs. If you dont want to use them, you can still simply hold the comlink to your ear (or tirn on the speaker, so everybody hears it wink.gif) just like a cellphone (or, referencing some experimental wristphone the japanese are testing today, you can put your finger into your ear grinbig.gif )

Edit: If you are using a simmodule or earplugs & immagelink, you would still need AR gloves to controll the comlink and get the full AR experiance IMO, unless youve got a datajack ofcause (you could still use the buttons on the thing itselfe or use a rollup keyboard but thats so akward and retro).
Skippy
Heh - yeah, I figured there'd be something simple out there like that - I think that there are like, earbuds listed in the gear section... But obviously, a call ringing in would be audible to others about (just like a modern cellphone, unless set to vibrate or a visual cue or something)...

I was mainly trying to figure what the use of something like an imagelink, soundlink, touchlink, AR glasses, AR gloves, etc... would be to someone who already had an implanted commlink with Sim Module. According to p.209, Simsense is the easiest and most common way of accessing AR. If you can access AR with simsense, does one NEED the other implants/gear for anything?

As an aside: even though a number of the sample characters have cyber replacement eyes, (which include an image link) they also have AR glasses/goggles listed in their gear... So, I'm never convinced that the sample characters have the appropriate gear listed for them anyways... they're just not very helpful. wink.gif
ogbendog
they might have goggles because they don't want their cybereyes logged into the matrix, where a hacker can shut them off...
Skippy
True, but then I'd assume that the eyes wouldn't be speaking directly with the matrix, but receiving data from runner's Commlink (either wireless, or maybe connected via datajack into the DNI system). In which case, the commlink is the thing getting hacked. It could send false info TO the eyes, but since the eyes themselves would probably just be controlled via DNI, I don't think you can hack them into "off mode"... unless you don't turn off the wireless...

heh. makes my head hurt to think about actually...

Thanks!
Azralon
QUOTE (Skippy)
True, but then I'd assume that the eyes wouldn't be speaking directly with the matrix, but receiving data from runner's Commlink (either wireless, or maybe connected via datajack into the DNI system). In which case, the commlink is the thing getting hacked.

That's the assumption; your commlink (typically) acts as the router for your PAN.

QUOTE (Skippy)
heh. makes my head hurt to think about actually...

Oh, that's just me hacking your headware. The pain will go away in a minute.
milspec
It is my understanding that if you have an internal commlink (which includes a sim module), an image link, and a sound link (each included with the basic cyberpart package) that you can fully interact with AR and VR.

You may not even need the image and sound links. The sim module on the commlink would convert the incoming data to sensory input, and take the outgoing sensory signal and convert it to a data output. An incoming text message (or smartlink data) would be displayed via your sense of sight.

(I am a little unclear at out how an outgoing thought would be converted to data that can be transmitted by a commlink. At one point I thought this was the role of the datajack, but now I am not so sure.)

The only reason I usually include the sound and image links (and do so on my current characters) is to meet the rule as written for smartlinks, which say they require an image link to display the tactical data.

I am quite open, and interested, to other interpretations. smile.gif

milspec
PlatonicPimp
The internal commlink does not iclude a sim module. You'll note that the implanted Sim moduale is a separate peice of cyberware.
milspec
Someone in another thread pointed out this hidden gem:

SR4, p 228, under "Virtual Reality":

"Simrigs (both worn and implanted) and cranial commlinks also contain sim modules."

milspec
PlatonicPimp
But the actual gear section contradicts that. In the case of contradiction, you should go with the orgional description of the item in the gear chapter, and ignore the incorrect reference in wireless world.
milspec
I agree the cyberwre gear section does not explicitly state that the commlink contains the sim, or that the sim module is contained in the commlink. However, it does not explicitly state that is does *not* either. Each description is only one sentence long.

In this case, there seems to be one reference in the book to support it, very specifically worded:

"Simrigs (both worn and implanted) and cranial commlinks also contain sim modules."

And as far as I can tell, the editing in the book got worse the deeper you go. wink.gif

I agree it is unclear. However, to me, it made certain sense and that is the way we play it.

milspec
Skippy
Right - I think that's the conclusion that we came to as well - that the cranial commlink contained the sim module (as stated on p.228). We figured that you can also purchase just the internal sim module using the price/essence cost listed in the gear section. It's the same cost as the price to add an internal commlink (nuyen and essence wise) so perhaps it's not the best option that way, but... maybe you want to have the sim module implanted, and wanted to be able to change out/upgrade commlinks often (connect to them via datajack). Who knows. I just figured that was why they listed it as a separate item in the gear.



PlatonicPimp
Feh. They listed it as separate gear, there is a market for people who don't want simsense in their cranial deck, and if they have an essence loss listed for something, I feel that you shouldn't be able to circumvent that by getting it essence free as part of something else.
MK Ultra
Im with you (thoug your point does not work with cybereyes/ears)
Cynic project
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
Feh. They listed it as separate gear, there is a market for people who don't want simsense in their cranial deck, and if they have an essence loss listed for something, I feel that you shouldn't be able to circumvent that by getting it essence free as part of something else.

I think you are wrong. I think there people who want sim rigs without comlinks.

But let's get to some logic here. If you have DNI do you need something more to make sound?No. Why would you? if you have DNI you can program you computer with your mind, you can read zeros and ones as if they were your own memories. SO giving info no problem. As doe sending info, Look at Hawking with a simple computer he can turn key stroke in words. It has a bad voice but in 60 years I think you could sound like well just about anything you wanted.So there you have input and out put.
milspec
So it is sounding like an implant commlink is all the average, tech-savvy runner needs for AR / VR. If he wants to be real l33t he can just have everything talk to it wirelessly.

(Muhahaha, says the Hacker.)

EDIT: Still the same question: can the simsense from the implant commlink be used to display the input from a smartlink? The description for smartlink clearly states "requires image link".

milspec
Lagomorph
It seems odd that AR would use SimModule at all, wouldn't that imply that it is doing a full sensory output like VR? My impression was that it didn't use the simmodule because it interacted with the *link items which were just overlays, rather than putting new SimSense into your body
MK Ultra
In case of AR the simsense is overlayed with the natural senses, whereas in full VR the natural senses are blocked, so only the simsense can be percived.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Skippy)
If you can access AR with simsense, does one NEED the other implants/gear for anything?

I asked this question a few months back, and there was one important factor that was pointed out: using a simmodule to generate your AR overlays leaves you open to simsense emotive-tracks as well.

Of course, it should be a relatively straightforward process to modifiy a sim-module to include a mode where it only plays back baseline sensory sim and doesn't playback the emotive tracks that give you the Full-X experience that's assumed to be the default standard for SR4 simsense. It should be roughly the same level of complexity as modifying a sim-module for Hot-Sim. After all, for years, Full-X simsense was the premium version, not the default.

Even so, the option for this sort of modification isn't explicitly spelled out in the RAW, so there's a chance an individual GM may disalow it.

However, there are implant alternatives to getting your AR Overlay via simmodule. These implant alternatives such as Image Link, Touch Link, etc. carry no risk of exposure to simsene emotive tracks.

Skippy
Yeah - that's the only drawback I could possibly think of - The emotive tracks. And it's a fairly large one, depending on how the GM wants to run it. I mean, it would really bite HARD to gather your chums, and go meet with a Johnson who you suspect of double-double-double-crossing you (heh). You start badmouthing him and he makes a gesture to his hacker, who promptly causes you to piss your pants in fear or with laughter because of some sort of emotive Sim attack he'd concocted or something.

I'm guessing that we might see similar attacks spelled out in future products... "Fear" programs, "confidence" programs.... etc...

For now though, for a hacker on a budget, with the sensitive system flaw, it might be just worth the risk...

thanks all


Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
Even so, the option for this sort of modification isn't explicitly spelled out in the RAW, so there's a chance an individual GM may disalow it.

The real interesting question is - how would that modification work for technomancers?
Lobotomy? wink.gif
nick012000
QUOTE (Skippy)
Yeah - that's the only drawback I could possibly think of - The emotive tracks. And it's a fairly large one, depending on how the GM wants to run it. I mean, it would really bite HARD to gather your chums, and go meet with a Johnson who you suspect of double-double-double-crossing you (heh). You start badmouthing him and he makes a gesture to his hacker, who promptly causes you to piss your pants in fear or with laughter because of some sort of emotive Sim attack he'd concocted or something.

I'm guessing that we might see similar attacks spelled out in future products... "Fear" programs, "confidence" programs.... etc...

For now though, for a hacker on a budget, with the sensitive system flaw, it might be just worth the risk...

thanks all

They're called "BTL chips". nyahnyah.gif
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Jan 12 2006, 04:12 AM)
Even so, the option for this sort of modification isn't explicitly spelled out in the RAW, so there's a chance an individual GM may disalow it.

The real interesting question is - how would that modification work for technomancers?
Lobotomy? wink.gif

That'd probably be the only way to do it. Too bad medical science doesn't really understand how technos do what they do.

Of course, a techno could just get a set of image linked goggles, earbuds and dataglove and feed output from their organic commlink through those instead of into the organic simmodule portion of their brain if they wanted to avoid the emotive tracks. I doubt a techno's going to drop Resonance by getting the implant versions of the sensory links.
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