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nezumi
One of my players came up with an... unusual concealed weapon and I'd like some opinions on it.

He wants a very flexible blade. The hilt has a belt buckle on it. With the leather sheath, he can safely wear the blade as an actual belt, making it physically concealable (although clearly not concealable to MADs). I can't imagine a sword with that degree of flexibility will be any good in a fight, but I would guess that it wouldn't be too hard to attach some sort of metal rods to the inside to give it some more strength. Anyway, for those of you who DO know this sort of thing, is this idea feasible? What would be the damage code for something like that?

A second question... How feasible would it be to make a one-shot special loading a shotgun slug or something like? A highly concealable, but very damaging pistol. I don't recollect seeing anything like this on any other sites, but it would make sense to me that there's no reason all hold-outs MUST pack .22s. Presumably it would be like 8S(f), with a clip of 1 and shotgun ranges with a choke of 2, or light pistol ranges.

Thanks in advance.
PBTHHHHT
Geez, how many threads did you make? nyahnyah.gif

Anyway, the flexible blade is a real weapon and has been used in such tv shows like Ruronin Kenshin. It is based on an exotic weapons, called the Urumi. It is practiced mainly by martial artists located in South India and Tamil Nadu regions, well that what this sites says.
PiXeL01
A player of mine came up with a 1 foot pipe with a simple fire mechanisium(sp I know) with a one shot gun round capability for door breaking.
nezumi
I'm sorry, I got an error every time I made it, so I posted a bug and kept trying. I'm deleting the empty ones now, but I seem to only be able to delete out the body of the message.

*le sigh*

Neat sword. It looks more like a whip than a sword though. I presume I'd have to use the same rules for botched rolls as the monowhip and reduce the damage?

(Thanks for the prompt reply though)
Herald of Verjigorm
Given that article, I'd say give it the same self-injury chance as a monowhip, but something like 7M damage with no armor bypassing effects.

Elchiro Hatamoto II, a single shot shotgun with a concealability of 6 and 8S damage. CC page 18.
PBTHHHHT
No prob. I recognized what your friend was asking about and I went about looking about to see where I've seen it before. While some of the weapons seen in tv/movies may seem outrageous, a lot of them (not all) stem from something that's factual. Just twisted around in a lot of cases. lol.

Yeah, if you read up on the weapon, it definitely has a monowhip feel to it. So that begs the question, why bother with this weapon when a monowhip could be better and such? Well, ok, this weapon if you botch likely won't make you lose a limb... but the monowhip is even easier to hide... biggrin.gif
Frag-o Delux
PiXeL01: That weapon is called a Zip gun, they have been in exsistence for years. Before street gangs in Amercia (young punks) had access to "real" guns.

As for the sword, what if they got something like the weapon the chick used in Johnny Mnemonic? I works sort of like a collapsible cane. Pull on it and it "unlocks" and becomes flexible. Whipping it out all the links lock together and become ridged.
MK Ultra
An actual sword (not like the urumi) with a flexibel blade concealed in a belt was used by the vellaine in the final fight in Shanghai Noon. Id think your player got the idea from there. In the movie the weapon looks quiet usable, but then again its cinema and you dont know what tricks they used. Flexible blades however are very common in chinese martial arts. They may pack less power than heavyer, rigid blades but are better suited to circumvent parriey and blocks!
PBTHHHHT
Well then, please show us some actual links and examples so we can look at the flexible sword. I know about flexible swords and such, but this urumi was the best I can find so far for actual weapon.

edit: Do I have to do the job for you? sheesh. wink.gif Anyway, this site makes a reference to the Urumi and thin sword for the practioners that use the flexible sword. See here http://home.stny.rr.com/iama/az.html

At this site, there's a listing of chinese martial arts. One of the listings is the slip or thin sword. http://www.cedarseed.com/pathfour/omarweap...in%20sword'

So, I think the search is now to find a better reference for the thin sword, or slip sword in chinese martial arts.
Frag-o Delux
Silly idea, I have no clue if these materials are possible, I have heard of them, but thats it.

What if the blade was made from some sort of memory retaining material. Like a metal that is felixable, but when shocked it goes to a "memorized" form. Not sure how ridgid it would be, maybe a Foil or Rapier style blade could be made. Dont know what amount of electricity it would need or if it is possible, even in SR technoogy.
PBTHHHHT
Doesn't even need to be shocked. Temperature will send some materials back into it's original shape. A former coworker of mine before he went to work for the law firms, used to work for some steel companies and he showed me this one small metal he had where you can bend them into whatever shape. He then dunked the metal into a glass of water and it became straight again. Mind you this was a small piece of metal, paper clip like.
nezumi
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
Elchiro Hatamoto II, a single shot shotgun with a concealability of 6 and 8S damage. CC page 18.

I've seen that one, but if memory serves, the availability is like 10 or 12, which seems a bit ridiculous. It makes me think there's something 'special' about the gun that makes it so difficult to get.
MK Ultra
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT)
Doesn't even need to be shocked. Temperature will send some materials back into it's original shape. A former coworker of mine before he went to work for the law firms, used to work for some steel companies and he showed me this one small metal he had where you can bend them into whatever shape. He then dunked the metal into a glass of water and it became straight again. Mind you this was a small piece of metal, paper clip like.

You mean this stuff from Rosswell nyahnyah.gif

Sorry, Im not a google-fu master and lack the time to produce usefull links, so I can only reffer to the movie picture and kung-fu demonstrations in general. frown.gif
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (nezumi @ Jan 12 2006, 05:27 PM)
It makes me think there's something 'special' about the gun that makes it so difficult to get.

There is. It's a concealability 6 pistol/shotgun.
The most concealable shotgun is probably the SPAS-22 with stock folded at 4. The Elricho Hatamoto II can even be put in a concealable quickdraw holster for even better surprise attacks.
PBTHHHHT
Haha, very funny. I'm being totally serious, but hey, that's what I get for working at the patent office. As to google searching and such, I blame it on work where I learn to be as fast and efficient as possible for data searching. nyahnyah.gif

That's great you can refer to movie picture and kung-fu demonstrations, but you really need to provide evidence behind it if you can. It helps with the presentation of your arguments. As it is, the Urumi is very very similar to the chinese martial arts weapon. I can reference movies too, I've taken chinese martial arts, I have an interest in it. But the Urumi is close enough to what is being asked. It is a flexible blade, can be hidden in a belt, well, dang, ain't that close enough? nyahnyah.gif
Coyote_Moya
Easy to do, depending on the level of tech you want to use. If you want to introduce a kind of Memory Metal with a small electrical element in the buckle I can see it being somewhat viable. I think he would be better off with a mono-whip in the belt buckle tho.

Frag-o Delux
I was just thinking an electrical shock would be better, since it should easier and readily avilible to make the weapon usable. Carring a bucket of water around seems silly and say running into a deep freeze having the blade cut your trousers off. smile.gif
Mr.Platinum
i'll just stick with the monofilament belt.


now where did i put my legs?
Aku
QUOTE (Mr.Platinum)
i'll just stick with the monofilament belt.


now where did i put my legs?

this is so ripe for a dirty joke, i'm not even gonna go there....


But on topic, i think its a cool idea, i'd prolly go with the electro activated version (poor man's lightsword? heh)
nezumi
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
QUOTE (nezumi @ Jan 12 2006, 05:27 PM)
It makes me think there's something 'special' about the gun that makes it so difficult to get.

There is. It's a concealability 6 pistol/shotgun.
The most concealable shotgun is probably the SPAS-22 with stock folded at 4.

I mean something special in that it uses special technology so no one could just put a 12 gauge shell in two inches of saw off shotgun barreling and put a firing pin on the back.

What is the difference between the crazy expensive hatamoto and just a big zip gun? What would be the stats for a zip gun?

The guy doesn't want a monowhip because he's an adept who already has edged weapons at 8 or 9. It sounds like the Urumi or the extendable cane sword are most appropriate (if you say an urumi can really be used like a sword.) Thank you for that, I'll pass it along.
The Stainless Steel Rat
My take on the Zip Gun availability:

Most of these things are hand-made by the people who intend to use them; they aren't flooding the streets like Predators and other mass produced firearms. If you really want one, invest in a little Shotgun B/R, cuz they're easy to build, but hard to find.
Mr.Platinum
you can use that belt sword to fight of Jackie Chan, but in the end you will lose.
Siege
Or make friends with a Gunsmith who does custom work, no questions asked.

-Siege
FiveVenoms
I've been under the impression that the weapon in question was referred to as a "ribbon sword", although a corresponding google search just came up with about twenty pages of fan fiction I didn't have the patience to sort through. I'll revisit it later, although I'd be relatively certain that the weapon in question is identical (although perhaps not as long) to the urumi as PBTHHHHT said. Shaped somewhat like a broadsword, but about two or three inches wide, and popularized in more Hong Kong movies than I'm able to name.
The Stainless Steel Rat
QUOTE (Mr.Platinum)
you can use that belt sword to fight of Jackie Chan, but in the end you will lose.

Pretty sure that statement applies to just about everything.

You can use <insert object> to fight Jackie Chan, but in the end you will lose.
MK Ultra
Thats because Jackie Chan can use <insert any object not normaly used in combat> to beat you up nyahnyah.gif

Edit: HOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRGGHHHH rotate.gif wobble.gif spin.gif
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (nezumi)
I mean something special in that it uses special technology so no one could just put a 12 gauge shell in two inches of saw off shotgun barreling and put a firing pin on the back.

You know, put some fins on the outside for throwing so it goes off firing upwards wherever it lands, and you've got a Nutbuster.

=)


-karma
Muzzaro
One gun i made for a character...

It was 10 gauge, double barrel (the smaller shotgun size) punch shotgun. The barrels are cut short (about 1/2" from the cartridge's top), and mounted ontop of a metal gauntlet, so both barrels are basically resting ontop of your hand, with overlap when the hand is clenched into a fist. It fires by holding a metal rod in your fist, and pulling your hand downwards slightly, which releases the hammers. Pretty basic idea (could be easily vamped up), but the punch shotgun was pretty useful in close-ranges. Imagine an upper-cut punch, followed by releasing both barrels... Only problem i have with it, is that it's prone to jam, and you have to be extra careful when using it.
Frag-o Delux
Jamming, was it is clip feed or belt feed? The way I read it, you put 2 rounds in it and let rip, needing to reload after both sheels were used.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Muzzaro)
One gun i made for a character...

It was 10 gauge, double barrel (the smaller shotgun size) punch shotgun. The barrels are cut short (about 1/2" from the cartridge's top), and mounted ontop of a metal gauntlet, so both barrels are basically resting ontop of your hand, with overlap when the hand is clenched into a fist. It fires by holding a metal rod in your fist, and pulling your hand downwards slightly, which releases the hammers. Pretty basic idea (could be easily vamped up), but the punch shotgun was pretty useful in close-ranges. Imagine an upper-cut punch, followed by releasing both barrels... Only problem i have with it, is that it's prone to jam, and you have to be extra careful when using it.

Talk about a wrist-breaker... nyahnyah.gif

Actually, this idea could work really well if you rigged it to fire on impact (IE: a successful punch) and covered the cap with something light that won't allow water and dirt in, but won't effect the shell's firing (like a condom or nylon or something.)
hyzmarca
QUOTE (nezumi)
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm @ Jan 12 2006, 05:43 PM)
QUOTE (nezumi @ Jan 12 2006, 05:27 PM)
It makes me think there's something 'special' about the gun that makes it so difficult to get.

There is. It's a concealability 6 pistol/shotgun.
The most concealable shotgun is probably the SPAS-22 with stock folded at 4.

I mean something special in that it uses special technology so no one could just put a 12 gauge shell in two inches of saw off shotgun barreling and put a firing pin on the back.

Since it has a first name, I'll presume that the weapon is produed in small numbers by an independant gunsmith rather than mass produced by a major arms manufacturer. This would account fr the availability.

Asside from the lack of craftsmanship, anyone could shove a 12-gauge shell into a pipe and cap it off with something that would pass for a firing block. It would be unweildy and posibly injure the shooter, but it would work.

Generally speaking, the availability as almost certainly a game balance choice, although an uneven one when compared with other weapons.
Muzzaro
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
Jamming, was it is clip feed or belt feed? The way I read it, you put 2 rounds in it and let rip, needing to reload after both sheels were used.

The Jam would come from the jurry-rig'd firing system, that every so often would jam the gun rather than fire it.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (nezumi)
I mean something special in that it uses special technology so no one could just put a 12 gauge shell in two inches of saw off shotgun barreling and put a firing pin on the back.

Well, if it were just 2" of barrel, at least 3/4" (up to 1") of the cartridge would be sticking out at the end of it. Shot fired out of that would have an effective range of 1 meter, a slug 3 meters, and either could potentially be defeated by a thick leather jacket.

The "special" thing about the Hatamoto could be that it manages to propel regular shotgun projectiles from a ~6" barrel at velocities equal to (instead of about half of) what you get from a 16+" barrel. It isn't, since Shadowrun doesn't work that way, and it'd require some sort of magic to pull it off anyway, but it could be.
Ryu
On could put two isolated layers of battletech-style myomers inside the flexible blade.

An alternating segmentation of the myomers should provide enough stability to the blade to make the sword usable against soft targets. The weapon will still be weak against hard targets tough (still only a metal sheat on the outside, the edge is too flexible).
nezumi
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (nezumi)
I mean something special in that it uses special technology so no one could just put a 12 gauge shell in two inches of saw off shotgun barreling and put a firing pin on the back.

Well, if it were just 2" of barrel, at least 3/4" (up to 1") of the cartridge would be sticking out at the end of it. Shot fired out of that would have an effective range of 1 meter, a slug 3 meters, and either could potentially be defeated by a thick leather jacket.

So what would you recommend I look for if we're making a realistic powerful but concealable pistol? What would be the damage code on a very sawn off shotgun?
Austere Emancipator
If you consider the Ares Predator illustration from SR4 a "concealable pistol", then I guess it might do something like 6S/6D(f).

If it were slightly shorter, at around 6" Desert Eagle size, optimally I'd call it a 5S, but that'd probably be a bit too crappy. But it's either that or you've basically re-invented the Roomsweeper. At 4-5", normal for RL handguns that aren't specifically designed to be concealable, and still using normal shotgun ammunition, the muzzle velocity will be so low that you'd be better off with a standard "heavy pistol" in most situations.

These are all guesses, though, and only barely educated. If someone's got ballistic data for a 12 gauge shotgun firing standard 2-3/4" loads from barrels ranging from 4" to 8", I'm interested.
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