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SunJester
I have run SR4 3 times now.

The first run was just that, the classic first run at the stuffer shack to introduce my group to the rules and the setting and for me to work out the bugs. I think that two characters went down, both using Edge to survive.

The second run was the first Shadowrun Missions adventure converted for SR4. In that one a troll bodyguard (stock template) tried to disarm a maintenance drone filled with explosives by pounding on it. He was blown up good (real good).

Last night I ran the second Shadowrun Missions adventure (Demolition run I think is the name). The characters tried to hijack a semi filled with gas sitting at a truck stop. The driver unloaded a shotgun at point blank range into the mage. That killed him. The covery ops specialist ran into a troll with a shotgun. The third shot put her out of her misery.

Three sessions, four deaths so far. I can't complain about the realism. Most people would not survive a couple of point blank shotgun blasts. But it could be tough for character development when you are making a new character every 3 or 4 sessions.

I know that the group will get better. They will learn that if they treat SR4 like D&D then they will just die, early and often. But I just wanted to check and see if this matches up with other's experience, particularly with players who are not used to playing SR.
Liper
I think my char for sr3, when I retired him after 200karma he had a kill count of about 78
Critias
I can't really post an accurate count for my primary character. There've been a few explosions. It's a couple hundred, though.
Taki
My main character is a black dwarf adept with a simple gun (and a katana - used once).
He normaly use only a few bullet per mission - but pretty fast and were needed, rarely using more than a clip. We usually don't take to much risk - except when it's 5 or 6 in the morning thus really time to finish the session.
SunJester
So what I am gathering from the comments so far is exactly the opposite of what I am seeing in my game. The player characters in my game, up to this point, have low survivability. Are you indicating that your experience is that in the typical SR game, the PCs are nigh invincible?
Taki
Depending on a lot of things ...
GM style (and kindness), players style (easy going or berserkers), balance between PC and NPC and - the scenarios smile.gif
BishopMcQ
Sun--With the shift in power level came an increased lethality. That being said, armor and a high dodge skill are now very important to surviving combat.

An armored jacket goes a long way towards keeping you alive to return fire, and in general should be in the budget for most starting characters. Advice I'd give for a GM is double check that you are applying damage correctly (Stun vs Physical) and reducing for armor, otherwise it's going to be a steep learning curve for a few D&D players.

One thing you might try is a character tree (similar to Dark Sun) and have your group build three or four characters each to roll through until they get the hang of the new system and then get down to business with your campaign.
killerjoel
When we first started, most of the players utilized a smash 'em approach to encounters. . . my character and one other are the only ones left, being the only ones not thinking like that combat-wise. Nowadays, we are much more careful and paranoid.

In SR4, runners can bring the hurt down on anyone. They are machines of death. What your players will realize is that everyone else can do the same. My group is getting pretty good at picking the right situation to flip the kill-switch. We don't fight on even ground if we can help it. Ever.
Erebus
QUOTE (SunJester @ Jan 15 2006, 05:36 PM)
They will learn that if they treat SR4 like D&D then they will just die, early and often.

That goes for all Shadowrun, not necessarily just SR4. Shadowruns aren't dungeon crawls. They encompasss different playstyles, and it sounds like your players haven't quite found the proper path yet... they will.

Sounds like they're having fun though.
Azralon
It's much more of a "thinking man's game" than D&D, which is why I love Shadowrun so.
Grinder
Yeah, but that was in all editions. Every opponent is dangerous, even more in SR4. I had my first short game last sunday and nearly killed the whole team (4 runners) with three well-armed guards.
BetaFlame
I don't know numbers, but my kill count includes Chuck Norris.
Space Ghost
Sure he can be killed, but it still takes a lot to kill off old Chuck.
warrior_allanon
QUOTE (Erebus)
QUOTE (SunJester @ Jan 15 2006, 05:36 PM)
They will learn that if they treat SR4 like D&D then they will just die, early and often.

That goes for all Shadowrun, not necessarily just SR4. Shadowruns aren't dungeon crawls. They encompasss different playstyles, and it sounds like your players haven't quite found the proper path yet... they will.

Sounds like they're having fun though.

yeah but the thing is you can take a lot of people who play shadowrun and transfer them to D&D no problem.....the only thing would be there would be long periods of quiet punctuated by very large and high body count battles
Chiaroscuro23
In our experience, the PCs can seriously hurt stock NPCs, because we're all a lot more twinked than by-the-book NPCs are expected to be. At one point a squad of LAPD ghouls in a boat tried to ambush us in a pontoon boat, and only one of our PCs was seriously hurt before we killed them all. And that only because he wasn't behind cover when the attack started.

High skills count for a lot in overcoming them, but I think the real advantage is PCs mostly have better gear. If the standard villain has an SMG doing a piddly 5 or 6P damager and an armor jacket and the PCs are in the big full metal gear with an Ares Alpha with grenade launcher and airburst plus EX rounds, they're going to splat their foes real good.

As for SR being like D&D, I would say they're both very similar games. Both are high-crunch games with a niche protection and teamwork dynamic that includes a high reliance on gear and a focus on doing specific missions for loot. By contrast, a lot of RPGs are not like that at all. I guess one big difference in the area of combat is that D&D has very high but variable hit points, and attacks quickly outstripping defense, but no way to soak up damage, while SR has fewer hitpoints (and a death spiral tacked on to them) but high ability to dodge attacks and to reduce damage through body and armor. Certainly I think it's incorrect to say players of one game are innately smarter than players of another.

-C.
Grinder
In most of the games i'm GM the villains and faceless ninja thugs have equipment which equals that of the chars. Besides, carrying an Ares Alpha and wearing a Full Body Armor isn't always the best choice wink.gif
hobgoblin
doing specific missions for loot in sr? maybe in the beginning, but trow one curveball from the johnson and the game may well take on a life of their own...
fistandantilus4.0
S ofar I've probably ran about a dozen or so SR 4 games, and played in about as many. In my games, I've had one death, and about 4 HOG's, and WAY more close calls than in SR3. I like it.

I play as well, and I've taken a lot more damage. I like that it forces you to take cover . I like that you have to take in to consideration the fact that the punk with the shotgun you[re arguing with could kill you. I like the fact tht I gunned down a PC with a lonestar officer w/ a shotgun with one shot.

Reaction 4 +1lv muscle toner +Firearms(G)3 + Spec Shotgun +Smartgun link
Burstfire from a shotgun w/ Edge 4 used. total successes on my roll was 13. One less runner. Don't mess with the Star chummer.

Now, before you jump on me, let me se tthe scene. The adventure is Braingscan. The first run, at a park, with a softabll little league game going. Off duty cop watching the game. One runner pulls up in a GMC Bull dog and steps out with an assault rifle on his shoulder, and stands there, waiting for the rest of the team to show. THe next two that arrive are in a Ferrari, one of which is a Night One in a black long coat, the other is , I shit you not, wearing a ninja suit. Sword and all. He's the one that ended up dying. The night one used HOG.
Lagomorph
My rigger has been ruled out of death twice now by held actions. But I have to agree, I like the fact that every one PC's and NPC's are on the same (mostly) level field. Unlike D&D where my group would have to fight stuff that was way higher than their level just to be remotely challenged.
Azralon
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
S ofar I've probably ran about a dozen or so SR 4 games, and played in about as many. In my games, I've had one death, and about 4 HOG's, and WAY more close calls than in SR3. I like it.

I give. "HOG?"
blakkie
Probabaly Hand Of God.
Azralon
Ah; I'll buy that.
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