So I'm thinking of GMing a 4th ed game, which is a bonus as my players will have ZERO experience with the rules. However, some of them have some annoying traits, and I need advice on how to handle them...

The first is a PowerGaming Rules Lawyer. Yes, a combo of both. He will be easy to deal with, he ain't playing (I'm not inviting him, and he isn't interestred in playing). But, I'd thought I'd get your ideas on how to deal with them anyways...

Basically, he played a Rigger, and he had purchased Rigger 3 and was using some of the rules presented in it. He gave me the book to scan through, and I made some rough notes about the more important parts. When Murphy's Law kicked in, and we needed one of the parts I hadn't noted down, I used the GMs "fudge it" power, and applied logic to resolve the situation. This incited an argument of his "That's not how it works" against my "Look, I'll sort it out in the break, I want to keep the flow going"... Needless to say, play was halted until he was happy with my interpretation of the rules, and we lost an hours play.


The second is a details person. The sort of person that watches a movie, and afterwards will have a half hour discussion on how the collar of the characters shirt was up in one shot, and changed in the next one... This one I got to wield a bit of GM power though

The scene; a sewer. The enemy, a swarm of something (weren't Devil Rats, but they were larger-than-normal-sewer-rats-controlled-by-a-spirit). After using a concussion grenade to try and scare them away (yes, his team made the rolls to survive somehow), the rats kept coming <this elicted an after game argument about how they should have run away; quickly stopped by the they were controlled comment>. As they kept coming, he decides to discuss with the team as for a plan of attack. With me saying "hurry it up, you ARE in combat". So when he is ready to act, the rats had moved closer, to the point they were on top of him (literally swarming up his legs). Hey, they wanna talk in combat, the rules are clear on what can be done each combat turn >:) Needless to say, shooting rats at ones feet with an AK, full burst... Not good. Rolling ones, and no successes... Good bye toes And hello argument (how come the rats just jumped, they should of been over there...)


Dealing with their characters doing stupid things is easy (they managed to lose a whole slew of safehouses, all their vehicles and pissed off their contacts in one mission <all legitimately>), but dealing with the people isn't so easy... I almost walked out midgame once, which I didn't want to do.


So, any suggestions on how to deal with these people?

I think with both players, your best bet would be to lay down the law ahead of time as far as the pacing of the game goes. I'm saying this because that seemed to be the root of the problem both times.

Tell them "If you have a rules dispute with me, then let's hash it out after the game, unless the dispute in question would drastically affect your character. Also, during combat and other time-sensitive situations, your characters will be talking in "real" time. Describing what your character is doing in enough detail, or asking questions to clarify a description - that's fine. But if you talk things over in the middle of the fight, the bad guys aren't going to stop shooting at you while you're having your discussion."

For the first example, the powergaming rules lawyer, you have two potentially bad habits to deal with. The powergaming isn't so bad - just clamp down on cheesiness during character creation (make sure that Flaws are actually drawbacks, etc.). Afterwards, there are a million ways to challenge any PC. As far as the rules lawyering goes, I think you handled it exactly right. You didn't blow off the rules, but didn't let them slow down the game, either.

For the detail-oriented person, just be consistent (taking notes helps), and be ready to fast-forward when the other players (and you) start to get bored with this players pedantic descriptions of, say, his character purchasing a gun and wanting to know what the gun shop looks like, haggle over every detail, etc. Detailed descriptions and interactions with NPCs are certainly both important, but you don't want your game bogged down in minutia, either. Be firm if you have to be.

Well, by the rules you can recite War and Pease in a single combat turn, provided there are enough combatants. A single word is a free action but every character gts a free action on every combatant's pass. I'm surprised that the rules lawyer didn't pull this one on you. If there were enough rats then they could have had quite a discussion.

Yes, it is broken when taken to extremes. Many rules in SR are broken when taken to the extreme. Against a rules lawyer, it is important to remember that you are the judge. It is your duty to interperate the rules such that you maintain their spirit that the rulesmakers intended.

Also, you may want to reeducate them by sending them here and forcing them to read the entire Drop Bear thread. Then, set your run is Australia. They'll be sufficiently paranoid, I think.

You have how many players?

3? 4? 5? You already have cited 2 whom you have problems with(granted 1 isn't going to join your game). How many other players do you have that are unhappy about how you are running things but aren't voicing out becuase the other 2 already did? If this is the case, the problem, dear GM, is you. Sometimes you got to realise that you GMing style is unfun to some people and your job as GM is to make things fun for your players.

Your job is fun for all players. Not just the ones that go along with the flow but the rules lawyers and nit pickers as well. That's why you are the GM. It isn't an easy job but that's how it is. You can refuse to allow anyone into your game, that's true, but once in... the rules say that everyone should enjoy the game(although the rules also say that you can break the rules, which brings us to the point of "can you break the rule saying you can break the rule?" but that's another argument for another day.)

Get players that really like your gaming, that solves almost everything.

I think everyone needs to have fun gaming, GM included, plus, it's a lot of work really.

On the other hand, I have noticed that being firm on your calls AND receptive to players comments helps a lot. It's all about creating a good atmosphere.

Cheers, and good luck

Max

Hmmm... COWS FROM SPACE!!!! I think it's important for people to realize when they're being annoying, and if they're going to be offended by a well-deserved cow from space, then they shouldn't be in your group.

I am not exasperated by rules lawyers. I appreciate how they help me keep the game correct to a T. I value correct rules administration, I guess.

I agree to be up front with the players about how you want to run the game, but then make sure you listen to them about what they'd like in a game as well. Maybe you can compromise.

Also talk to the players as individuals. If they have the same concerns about the problem player, then you can discuss 'mistakenly' inviting them to the wrong game night eight or ten times in a row.

using real life and in game actions to deal with annoying players is something my group does to keep the idiots away from us. Example: DNA/DOA run

we manage to get in the underground compound and are sweeping through the rest of the section when we break for the week. the next week neighbors kid shows up and wants to play. unfortunately this is his first time gaming except under his mother who spoils the little brat. so we end up doping up his character and leaving it with the mutated scientist. At this point he has been extremely annoying and irritating, whining when he cant do something and not listening when its suggested he do something a particular way. not to mention he comes into the compound halfway through the mission, he's lucky we even let him play and didnt just geek his character outright...gods it was tempting......

the other problem person is our main GM's brother, thankfully the GM doesnt really like him that much and he doesnt play often. unfortunately he plays often enough to annoy the rest of the group and we really cant go up to him and say, "No you cant play, you'll just fall asleep or wander off when you get bored with the game because your not being forced into combat." which is usually what happens. either that or he tries to play while he's stoned and does stupid crap that sets things off. Example, playing a D&D game we're going down a narrow foot path on the inside of a large well that has been being used as a refuse pit. this guy falls asleep on the couch because he's bored and wont get up to make his roll. so we let him sleep and let his character fall into the refuse pit and die.Example of when he was stoned: We doing a HQ run taking the eartips of the group "Para nobilis" and trying to talk our way into the building. Our guy with the "Liar" flaw is doing a marvelous job of talking his way past the receptionist when this yahoo comes back from getting loaded and declares that he jumps up brandishing a gun and threatens the woman to let him in....of course all hades breaks out and we have to beat feet and try again another day under tighter security.......we nearly lynched him after that.