Hey folks, I did a quick search and didn't see if this was addressed, so...
When doing the opposed test against a runner's fake SIN, what is the average rating of the scanner? Fake SINs only go up to 3 at character creation it would appear, so would your average store scanner be a 1, and then progressively go up from there?
Full Version: SIN Scanners: Ratings?
Errata 1.3 changed the Fake SIN Availability to (Rating x 3)F, which allows Rating 4.
My GM used the Rating as a Threshhold and gave Lone Star 12 dice to try detect it. They didn't detect the Rating 6 SIN. *whew* But they did roll 4 hits, and 5 or 6 hits is quite possible. Not sure what he would have done in a tie, maybe further questioning so requiring a Con Opposed Test. Just work it from there using that as a Benchmark allocating dice, and just call it Data Search dice and Scanner Rating dice.
That felt about right. Because you can't used Edge dice anyway with your Fake SIN, and that's a lot less random.
My GM used the Rating as a Threshhold and gave Lone Star 12 dice to try detect it. They didn't detect the Rating 6 SIN. *whew* But they did roll 4 hits, and 5 or 6 hits is quite possible. Not sure what he would have done in a tie, maybe further questioning so requiring a Con Opposed Test. Just work it from there using that as a Benchmark allocating dice, and just call it Data Search dice and Scanner Rating dice.
That felt about right. Because you can't used Edge dice anyway with your Fake SIN, and that's a lot less random.
| QUOTE (Brahm) |
| Because you can't used Edge dice anyway with your Fake SIN, and that's a lot less random. |
Mmmh. Can't remember seeing something like this. It'n nowhere clearly stated that Edge can't be used in such a test, AFAIK. Edge is, well luck. May i ask, where you got your impression from?
@Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate:
We use the normal Device Ratings Table on Page 214 to determine the Rating of a scanner. We interpret a Rating 3 with a simple handheld device as carried by a street cop and a Rating 6 with an in depth scan (only applicable in places like Lone Star facilities, where you'r SIN will be scanned deeply if you got caught). Other Systems may vary, but with us they don't drop below 2 in stores and such.
0 - stuffer shack, cheap clothing store, fast food joint (they don't even require you to sign credit slips these days)
1 - fasionable clothing store, sit down restaurant.
2 - Electronics store, fancy restaurant.
3 - used car dealership, high end electronics, gun store.
4 - new car dealership
5 - Hospital
6 - Police, airport security
1 - fasionable clothing store, sit down restaurant.
2 - Electronics store, fancy restaurant.
3 - used car dealership, high end electronics, gun store.
4 - new car dealership
5 - Hospital
6 - Police, airport security
Have anyone seen house rules for equipment ratings over the listed Maximum?
I thought the SIN check was an opposed test. Scanner Rating vs. Fake SIN rating. I also believe it does say in the book (somewhere) that a tie means "inconclusive" and the officer/guard will probably question further.
| QUOTE (Darkness @ Jan 26 2006, 08:33 AM) | ||
Mmmh. Can't remember seeing something like this. It'n nowhere clearly stated that Edge can't be used in such a test, AFAIK. Edge is, well luck. May i ask, where you got your impression from? |
Just going by a general rule that if you aren't using your own dice you can't use Edge. Like when you from the Captian's Chair tell your drone to shoot a person the drone can't use your Edge.
| QUOTE (mdynna) |
| I thought the SIN check was an opposed test. Scanner Rating vs. Fake SIN rating. I also believe it does say in the book (somewhere) that a tie means "inconclusive" and the officer/guard will probably question further. |
Yes. But my GM handled it differently, and it worked well I think. Only one roll to make instead of two.
a tie between the tests does indeed mean further questioning, and he specifically indicated that the threshold part of that statement was his GM's ruling, not a game rule.
it does, however, happen to be a houserule that IMO should be official... since, as written, it is my opinion that fake SINs are too easily detected. you can have a rating 6 SIN and it's not all that unlikely for a rating 3 scanner to tie or even beat it.
it does, however, happen to be a houserule that IMO should be official... since, as written, it is my opinion that fake SINs are too easily detected. you can have a rating 6 SIN and it's not all that unlikely for a rating 3 scanner to tie or even beat it.
My group plays it the following way:
When checking someone's commlink ID, the book says to simple roll scanner vs ID. We are adding a second variable to that:
(scanner + commlink) vs (ID + commlink)
So a hacker has a lower chance of having his fake ID caught by a standard street cop. And a high-tech scanner has a better chance to crack an average ID.
Example: Cop with Rating 3 scanner and a Rating 2 Commlink (slightly below average) = 5 dice. A hacker with a Rating 5 SIN and a rating 5 Commlink = 10 dice. Chances are good the hacker will usually win, but randomness will occasionally make it interesting.
milspec
When checking someone's commlink ID, the book says to simple roll scanner vs ID. We are adding a second variable to that:
(scanner + commlink) vs (ID + commlink)
So a hacker has a lower chance of having his fake ID caught by a standard street cop. And a high-tech scanner has a better chance to crack an average ID.
Example: Cop with Rating 3 scanner and a Rating 2 Commlink (slightly below average) = 5 dice. A hacker with a Rating 5 SIN and a rating 5 Commlink = 10 dice. Chances are good the hacker will usually win, but randomness will occasionally make it interesting.
milspec
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| a tie between the tests does indeed mean further questioning, and he specifically indicated that the threshold part of that statement was his GM's ruling, not a game rule. it does, however, happen to be a houserule that IMO should be official... since, as written, it is my opinion that fake SINs are too easily detected. you can have a rating 6 SIN and it's not all that unlikely for a rating 3 scanner to tie or even beat it. |
Yes, thank you for explaining better.
| QUOTE (Brahm) |
| Errata 1.3 changed the Fake SIN Availability to (Rating x 3)F, which allows Rating 4. My GM used the Rating as a Threshhold and gave Lone Star 12 dice to try detect it. They didn't detect the Rating 6 SIN. *whew* But they did roll 4 hits, and 5 or 6 hits is quite possible. Not sure what he would have done in a tie, maybe further questioning so requiring a Con Opposed Test. Just work it from there using that as a Benchmark allocating dice, and just call it Data Search dice and Scanner Rating dice. That felt about right. Because you can't used Edge dice anyway with your Fake SIN, and that's a lot less random. |
So what continuum would you give for this? How many dice are lower-rating establishments going to be rolling against that threshold?
It is Eddie Furious. He posts here sometimes, so maybe he will give you his answer.
I hadn't thought about it much myself. I really like MrMiracle's list and then close to double dice for the likely Data Search skill the operator has. Depending on the situation.
In the one in our game the character with the Fake SIN was filing a police report about pirates off the coast of Seattle. Linked to an insurance claim that would have run into 6 digits. Story here. The boat was shot up really bad.
So that means not just a beat cop, who is going to have maybe Data Search 2 or 3 tops. Also a beat cop may carry around a slightly less than top of the line scanner. So that means a standard Lone Star officer that pulls over your car and has a reason to check your SIN closely because something sets them off will roll maybe 7 or 8 dice. Best case for a Fake SIN 1 there is that you will amuse the officer with your pitiful forgery. Fake SIN 3 should have you sweating a bit, expect to do some Fast Talking. Fake SIN 4 is fairly safe. Ratings above that should get you by with no problems unless you do something else that makes the officer suspicious enough to use Edge. Or it was your turn to bring beer for the GM and you forgot.
What is the Skill rating of someone working at a store counter? Likely only 1 if they have it at all. Once again depends on whether you did something that caused the shift manager to come out and do the check, or if you have annoyed the GM.
I hadn't thought about it much myself. I really like MrMiracle's list and then close to double dice for the likely Data Search skill the operator has. Depending on the situation.
In the one in our game the character with the Fake SIN was filing a police report about pirates off the coast of Seattle. Linked to an insurance claim that would have run into 6 digits. Story here. The boat was shot up really bad.
So that means not just a beat cop, who is going to have maybe Data Search 2 or 3 tops. Also a beat cop may carry around a slightly less than top of the line scanner. So that means a standard Lone Star officer that pulls over your car and has a reason to check your SIN closely because something sets them off will roll maybe 7 or 8 dice. Best case for a Fake SIN 1 there is that you will amuse the officer with your pitiful forgery. Fake SIN 3 should have you sweating a bit, expect to do some Fast Talking. Fake SIN 4 is fairly safe. Ratings above that should get you by with no problems unless you do something else that makes the officer suspicious enough to use Edge. Or it was your turn to bring beer for the GM and you forgot.
What is the Skill rating of someone working at a store counter? Likely only 1 if they have it at all. Once again depends on whether you did something that caused the shift manager to come out and do the check, or if you have annoyed the GM.
All Identification Systems in SR4 main book have a Device Rating of 3 - so, the scanner would roll three dice...
When considering scanner ratings up to six, it is nearly inevitable to switch the opposed test to a threshold test, so a rating 6 ID is as bulletproof as it is described...
When considering scanner ratings up to six, it is nearly inevitable to switch the opposed test to a threshold test, so a rating 6 ID is as bulletproof as it is described...
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| All Identification Systems in SR4 main book have a Device Rating of 3 - so, the scanner would roll three dice... |
Where are you getting this?Getting by without a SIN can be a pain, so runners settle
for the next best thing—a fake. If it’s high quality, nobody will
ever recognize the diff erence. If it’s low quality, you’d better not
use it in high security settings. Th e rating of the fake SIN is
used in Opposed Tests against the ratings of any verifi cation
systems trying to discern its authenticity.
Having all scanners be rating 3, whether you are buying a bottle of soy juice or applying for house loan or registering your vehicle, seems to fly in the face of that.
| QUOTE |
| When considering scanner ratings up to six, it is nearly inevitable to switch the opposed test to a threshold test, so a rating 6 ID is as bulletproof as it is described... |
Yes, it is just another part of the rules that weren't fully codified and maybe not fully thought through. So there it is. Until Unwired an extension of the rules that works.
| QUOTE (Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate) |
| So what continuum would you give for this? How many dice are lower-rating establishments going to be rolling against that threshold? |
I decided that the way the SIN Scanners was set up didn't feel quite right to me. I put it in my mind that a top notch organization or one who specializes in identifying people would have a lot of dice in their ID/data search system, so 12 seemed right. It was the same number of dice I rolled for ARES when they did a credit check on the Dwarf when he got the speedboat for a test drive. From there I pretty much use a little common sense. A knucklehead C grade private dick might have four or five dice to ID with through his system. A fully supported Intelligence Organization with a few special forces operatives on thier roster would get a 14 or even 16 for the really accomplished ones. But then we are talking about legwork and checking the SIN holder's "legend" which is not an on the spot kind of thing.
A Special Forces Op turned Runner turned Fixer might have saaaay 10 dice or so... at first.
| QUOTE (Brahm) | ||
Where are you getting this? |
P. 206 "For simplicity, however, most devices in SR4 are given a standard
Device rating that bundles all of these attributes together.
Th ese attributes are detailed under Matrix Attributes, p. 212."
P 213 "Th ere are far too many electronics in the world of
Shadowrun for a gamemaster to keep track of their individual
Matrix attributes. Instead, each device is simply given a Device
rating. Unless it has been customized or changed in some way,
assume that each of the Matrix attributes listed above for a particular
device equals its Device rating.
If a particular device plays an important role in an adventure,
the gamemaster should assign a full complement of
Matrix attributes to it. If the item only plays a passing role, then
a simple Device rating will suffi ce.
Th e Sample Devices table (p. 214) lists typical Device ratings
for common electronics."
P 214 "Average (Rating) 3 Standard personal electronics, headware, vehicles,
drones, home/business terminals"
Business Terminal is probably used to check ID when you shop.
| QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jan 27 2006, 11:30 PM) | ||||
P. 206 "For simplicity, however, most devices in SR4 are given a standard Device rating that bundles all of these attributes together. Th ese attributes are detailed under Matrix Attributes, p. 212." P 213 "Th ere are far too many electronics in the world of Shadowrun for a gamemaster to keep track of their individual Matrix attributes. Instead, each device is simply given a Device rating. Unless it has been customized or changed in some way, assume that each of the Matrix attributes listed above for a particular device equals its Device rating. If a particular device plays an important role in an adventure, the gamemaster should assign a full complement of Matrix attributes to it. If the item only plays a passing role, then a simple Device rating will suffi ce. Th e Sample Devices table (p. 214) lists typical Device ratings for common electronics." P 214 "Average (Rating) 3 Standard personal electronics, headware, vehicles, drones, home/business terminals" Business Terminal is probably used to check ID when you shop. |
That is not the rating as a scanner. That is just a guideline for assigning a System, Firewall, Response, and Signal to some device that otherwise was not given details. Like your cybereye or a businessmans PDA. Or the scanner as well, but not as the rating of it's primary function. Just for details on breaking into it via wireless, although if you try that an alert GM is likely going to instead say it is a security device or even bump it up past that to make it harder to get into.
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