Ok, here's a sheet I made using Frank's idea on summoning. I've only playtested it a bit, so give your comments (Yes, I know, not much fluff but I'm working on that), this template assumes 2 things, A) Your GM will allow the Aztec Tradition (Hermetic works good too), and B) He'll allow the Aztec god of death as your Mentor Spirit (Dark King can replace this):

400BP
Name: Kortez
Race: Dwarf
Type: Mystic Adept (Aztec)

-Attributes
B:7
A:2
R:3
S:3
C:2
I:2
L:3
W:7

E:1
M:6

-Skills
(G)Sorcery 2
(G)Stealth 2
Summoning 7(Spirit Of Man)


-Qualities
Focused Concentration (1)
Mentor Spirit (Mictlantecuhtli/+2 Ritual Spellcasting/+2 Spirit of Man/-4 Spirit of Beast/May not wear armor)
Aptitude(Summoning)
Astral Beacon
SINner (Criminal)
Combat Paralysis

-Spell
Powerbolt
Heal
Inc Bod
Inc Will

-Foci
Summ 3
Power 2

--------------
Step One: Choose Spirit Type (Spirit Of Man)
Step Two: Choose Spirit Force (F12)
Step Three: Opposed Test Magic+Summoning+Misc vs Force (6(Ma)+7(Su)+2(PoFo)+2(MeSp)+2(Spec) vs 12(For))
Step Four: Calculate Net Hits (Average 4-8)
Step Five: Calculate Total Force Hits (Average 2-6)
Step Six: Note Services: Net Hits (Average 2-4 Services)
Step Seven: Calculate Drain: Spirit Hits*2, Min 2 (Average 4-12P)
Step Eight: Damage Resistance Test: Willpower+Body Hits-DV Boxes (7(Will)+7(Bod)+3(SumFo)+1(FocCon), average around 4-8)

I think I got all of it.


Edited: Found out Mystics gotta choose powers or slinging...Quite annoying, but its just -6 Damage Resistance Test dice. Damage doesn't matter here as your F12 Spirit of Man throws 24 dice for his F24 Heal spell. Wee.

Yes, you got everything. Nice case study.

Yes, Force 12 is to powerful, as is reliably being able to summon such things.

Thanks!

I would like to add, now that I think about it, starting off...Thats a basic mage but -5BP because he's a Mystic instead of a Magician. Odd.

beware of summoning and binding big spirits. we had a mage die trying to bind a force 7. the dm rolled 9 successes on 14 dice. even with edge the mage died

Just to note i think his math is a bit off.

19 dice averages 6.333 hits. We'll round to 6 and we'll give it two hits either way on average for a range of 4-8 hits.

A force 12 spirit on average is going to get 4 hits. Giving it leeway 2 either way in turn, on average it will get 2-6 hits.

So on average the summoner would only get 2 hits. with a range of -2 to 6 hits.

So drain wise we're looking at a range of 4P to 12P drain.

With 17 dice gives us 5.66 so we'll round up to 6. Again giving it a leeway of 2 either way we come out with 4-8. The summoner will take damage on a range from 0-8 Physical.

Or is my math flawed there...

The only way for him to really pull this off without his head exploding is to have a bound spirit aid with casting and to have a focus of about force 8.

This is why it's good to get free spirit's true names.

Couple of things:

I didn't do a average thing, its just what I experianced with my own rolling of the dice, so thanks for writing those up, when I get to a less crappy comp I'll edit the post and change them. Oh, and I forgot the +1 dice on the Drain from Focused Concentration.

Second, the rules dont talk about Spirits really carring who Summons them, or a lot more Mage ganger kids would be dying I suppose . If your Gm decides that then...well you probably either need to not play anything with Conjuring or get used to summoning F2-4's.


Thirdly, like Frank said, if you ever try and Bind the spirit you should be slapped. Hard. Otherwise its as simple as the steps I wrote. Whats the Physical box formula? I cant remember, but 7bod should get you a butt load of Boxes. On a side note, you dont really need bound spirits. This guy has 24 Reaction with the Dodge skill at 12, He's also got Confusion and the ability to cast all your spells (4x3:12) which includes the Inc. Stat. stuff. All without having to leave the comfort of your home.

That is why i tacked the bit on at the end, and really only the GM knows and selects the spirits entire agenda. Having the same general goal doesn't assure compliance. Just like the Monty Python skit about the different branches of the same church.

Just ask any dead Insect Shaman.

Thanks for clearing that up Another question regarding:

>> Willpower+Body Hits-DV Boxes (7(Will)+7(Bod)+3(SumFo)+1(FocCon), average around 4-


It looks like he's using foci for his version of the drain resistance test... Is this also something specific to that tradition? As far as I know, there's nothing (not even wound modifiers) than modify the dice pool for drain resistance.

The thing that I am wondering about is this: do spirit skills have the same maximum of 6 that metahumans get? That would cut down on the cheese, but high Force spirits would still remain powerful (since they would still have those buff linked Attributes).

The book doesn't say either way, though, and you could just as easily argue that a being of quicksilver and pure magic could do things like dodge, attack, and manipulate magical energy much more efficiently than a frail, meat-bodied metahuman could.

Frank and Seven, breaking systems one archetype at a time...

SR4 magic feels a lot less exploitable to me for some reason...

Anyway, the character is predicated on the use of a custom tradition specifically in violation of the rules on how to build traditions (BOD as part of the DR test). Blood mages summoning up big spirits has never been a huge surprise, though. That's one of the reasons that blood mages generally aren't allowed as player characters.

again, show us the numbers...

Best you can do at character gen is this:

Elf (30 pts)

Cha 8 (65 pts)
Will 6 (65 pts)
Magic 6 (65 pts)

Magician (15 pts) - shamanic
Mentor Spirit (5 pts) - anything that gives 2 dice to summon the chosen spirit type
Focused Concentration I (10 pts)

Summoning 6 + Spirits of X spec (26 pts)

Spirit focus 3, bound (12 pts total)

For a grand total of 293 points, leaving you a total of 107 points to make the rest of your character.

Against a specific type of spirit, you can roll 19 dice to summon and 15 dice for drain.

EDIT:

Assuming a force 6 spirit is your target, you are up against 4 successes or less from the spirit (~1% chance of 5 and << 1% chance of 6). You will hit 5 successes on the summoning test 71% of the time. Against the worst case drain (8 dv) you have an 9% chance of taking no drain and a 40% chance of taking 3 boxes or less (includes 0-3 boxes). 4 boxes of drain or less is 80% likely.

EDIT2:

The wiser way to do it might be to use the spirit focus dice on the drain roll instead, giving you 16 dice to summon and 18 to resist drain. This gives you a 83% chance of 4 successes and a 66% chance of 5 successes to summon. On drain, you'd have a 22% chance of no drain and a >75% chance of 0-3 boxes of drain in the worst (8 DV) drain case.

Against a force 12 spirit, you're looking at up to 7 successes on the part of the spirit (1.88% chance of 8 and almost 0 of 9+). So you've got about about a 60% chance of being conscious at the end of it (assuming body 2, body 3 gives you another box of leeway for a >75% chance of consciousness).

Ah the nay sayers.

First to those that think he's not powerful because he doesn't have the ability to do other things...Thats what the spirits is for silly!

Second, Banishing in the first place is rather hard and tends to hurt not only that you assume this character will actually be at the place of the 'battle' or target location. Thats what Remote Service is for. Not only would it hurt to Banish such a spirit but to my knowledge it takes a Complex Action and an Opposed Test. Ma+Ba Vs Fo. All it does is reduce services, that means you need at least around 4 (If I remember my lowest average) Hits. But wait! Theres more, it will only go on its next action, and you know what? I can pull it right back, with a few tests and drain I admit. But all that is kinda hard to do considering the fact that the Spirit of Man's Init is...26 with 2 IP's.

Yes, as I've said in the first post this is an unorthodox Tradition, however it makes for a nice NPC Tradition as it adds a spook factor and well, its the Azlanders, what do you expect?

Fourthly or something this post was not without reason. As a GM I would have to say the only real way to bend this back into play would be to add in a line (SR4, Pg 179B)'...is equal to twice (Or four times if over summoning) the hits...' There, you can still summon the sucker but this time it actually hurts. Even if the spirit rolls 2 hits you still go up against 8P Drain.

I'm not saying it's not possible to create that character. In fact, the one I did just above your post is using a standard tradition and is within 1 die of your example if you add a F2 power focus (12 bp) to him. The one die was traded to be a full mage in place of a mystic adept. So I'd argue that the elf example is actually more powerful than yours since he can go somewhere astrally with the spirit, select his target, and order the spirit to manifest and do its damage.

If this were going on as an NPC, then that's all well and good (provided the team can handle it), but keep in mind who this person is. They are the most powerful summoner on the face of the planet. There will be a corps sending extraction teams looking for this guy so he can be offered a *ahem* job. If they can't do that, they'll be insuring that he doesn't join the competetition as certainly as possible (with a gunshot, of course). Think of it as the gaming equivalent of MAD.

If I had a player make this character and seriously expect to play him in a game, I would simply declare that he wins and that ends the campaign. If the PCs can stand up to anything out there (or one PC is so powerful that the rest of the team might as well stay home) where's the point of playing that campaign any longer?

If I were doing something along these lines, I'd do it like this:

Dwarf (20BP)

Attributes (220 BP)
B 6
A 1
R 1
S 3
C 2
I 2
L 5 (7)
W 6
Ess 5.35
Mag 4
Edg 5
Ini

Skills (130):
Summoning 7
Influence 1
Cracking 4
Data Search 2
Computer 2
First Aid 4
Medicine 4

Qualities: (0 BP)
Magician
Aptitude: Summoning
Mentor Spirit
Astral Chameleon
Criminal SIN
Combat Paralysis
Incompetence: Ritual Sorcery

Equipment:
Force 3 Air spirit Summoning Focus
Rating 2 Cerebral Booster
Datajack
Platelet Factory
Low Lifestyle
Rating 6 Medkit
Commlink

You "only" roll 13 dice to summon an Air Spirit, and you usually go for a Force 7. You roll 14 dice to resist drain, and you have room to expand. You're not a one-trick pony, you are a modestly decent Hacker. You provide valuable team backup and can sick a spirit capable of killing most anyone in the game at will. And I mean "at will", you are good enough with medicine that you can patch yourself back together if things go awry.

Your first Karma will go to purchasing specializations for Summoning (Air spirits) and Medicine (Magical Care), then you'll buy up Willpower, Logic, and Body. Your first will go to improving your Commlink and make you a better Hacker.

-Frank

ugh, i knew there was something "wrong" about having trodes thats on par with a good old datajack. only thing missing is a anchored reflex enhancement spell and a gun with skinlinked smartlink and this joker can do the sammie part to...

edit: oh, wait. i missed the combat paralsys. and would he not be better of taking the hacking skill rather then computer?

oh crap, it was a group. please put a (g) behind those or something so that one can tell

then giving him both computer and cracking is a bit like putting butter on bacon as the hacking part of that group should cover the computer stuff nicely (you have to learn how to walk before you can run, therefor you know how to manage a spreadsheet before you can crack the DRM on it).

hmm, why do i have this quote in the back of my brain: "picachu, i choose you!"?

the more i look at it, the more i feel that the power of magic in SR4 does not so much come from it being a power in its own right, but that the essence requirement for much stuff have been "removed". no longer the need to get a datajack to be a hot decker/hacker and so on.

im guessing that the old "geek the mage first" is more valid then ever...