When looking at the drain for say fireball, the drain is :+1 (Damage level +2).
Does that mean +2 levels, or +2 boxes?
for example if i cast a Force 4 M damage fireball, the drain is 5D or 5M(+2 boxes)?
Cause if that's extra level's it's nasty. a force 1 deadly damage fireball would have a base drain of 6D!!!
Yowsers!
Juzzman
Full Version: ruses question - spells
I'll field this one sir.
The notation for the fireball is +1 power to the drain (+2 levels to the damage code.) So yes if cast at moderate that would mean a damage code of deadly for the drain.
Also remember you divide by 2 the force of the spell for drain BEFORE any modifiers. So in your example a Force 4 fireball would have a drain code of:
4/2 +1= drain power 3 (moderate+2 levels= deadly) for 3(Deadly)
PS don't forget about sustaining modifiers or that the Force after modifiers above the magicians magic stat is physical.
Hope that helps.
The notation for the fireball is +1 power to the drain (+2 levels to the damage code.) So yes if cast at moderate that would mean a damage code of deadly for the drain.
Also remember you divide by 2 the force of the spell for drain BEFORE any modifiers. So in your example a Force 4 fireball would have a drain code of:
4/2 +1= drain power 3 (moderate+2 levels= deadly) for 3(Deadly)
PS don't forget about sustaining modifiers or that the Force after modifiers above the magicians magic stat is physical.
Hope that helps.
hehe, you are right, i forgot about dividing the force by 2.
Thanks for clearing up my confusion on the damage code modifier. My wage mages wont be tossing too many deadly fireballs about i guess
Lucky runners.
Juzzman
Thanks for clearing up my confusion on the damage code modifier. My wage mages wont be tossing too many deadly fireballs about i guess
Lucky runners.Juzzman
I am sorry I can not let players get off lightly, so I am complused (against my will of course 
) to point you towards the expendable spell foci, elemental manipulation section. Very reasonable priced.
Happy roasting.
) to point you towards the expendable spell foci, elemental manipulation section. Very reasonable priced.Happy roasting.
Hmm, interesting.
Tell me if this is ok
Wagemage warms up a Fireball and launches it at 2 runners. (His magic rating is 6, sorcery is at 5, but he's only learnt fireball at force 4, and he uses an expendable focus force 4. His Spell pool is 5)
He chooses to cast his force 4 fireball with damage deadly (he's been offered a big bonus if he makes the runners history)
He's only firing the fireball, he has a clear shot. He holds all his spell pool and spell focus in reserve for the spell resistance test.
1. He makes a sorcery test, target number 4 , modified by target standing still -1, +2 for an extra target, end target 5
he rolls 3,3,4,5,9 making for 2 successes
2. Target 1 dodges, target number 4, using his combat pool of 4 dice (he gets 2 successes, and so dodges the fireball completely)
Target 2 is a little gun happy,and thinks he can shrug off the damage, he doesnt dodge.
3. Target 2 makes a damage resistance test. He is wearing lined coat impact rating 2. Target is Power level (force 4) - armor (2/2): target of 3
He has a body of 5, and combat pool of 4 dice, so 9 dice target 3
He rolls and gets 4 successes, giving him a net 2 successes, and staging the damage down to serious.
4. We then apply secondary damage to runner 2. Rolling 2d6 he gets an 11 meaning most things on target 2 will be cooked
5. Time to resist the drain. Drain code is 7D (4/2 + 1 +2 +2) and he has 6 willpower +5 spell pool + 4 focus to resist. He gets 3 successes, reducing his drain to a serious stun.
End result wagemage is seriously stunned, one runner is fine, one runner is badly burned and going off like a fireworks factory.
How does this look, did i follow the correct steps? (ie you can just dodge a fireball)
Juzzman
Tell me if this is ok
Wagemage warms up a Fireball and launches it at 2 runners. (His magic rating is 6, sorcery is at 5, but he's only learnt fireball at force 4, and he uses an expendable focus force 4. His Spell pool is 5)
He chooses to cast his force 4 fireball with damage deadly (he's been offered a big bonus if he makes the runners history)
He's only firing the fireball, he has a clear shot. He holds all his spell pool and spell focus in reserve for the spell resistance test.
1. He makes a sorcery test, target number 4 , modified by target standing still -1, +2 for an extra target, end target 5
he rolls 3,3,4,5,9 making for 2 successes
2. Target 1 dodges, target number 4, using his combat pool of 4 dice (he gets 2 successes, and so dodges the fireball completely)
Target 2 is a little gun happy,and thinks he can shrug off the damage, he doesnt dodge.
3. Target 2 makes a damage resistance test. He is wearing lined coat impact rating 2. Target is Power level (force 4) - armor (2/2): target of 3
He has a body of 5, and combat pool of 4 dice, so 9 dice target 3
He rolls and gets 4 successes, giving him a net 2 successes, and staging the damage down to serious.
4. We then apply secondary damage to runner 2. Rolling 2d6 he gets an 11 meaning most things on target 2 will be cooked
5. Time to resist the drain. Drain code is 7D (4/2 + 1 +2 +2) and he has 6 willpower +5 spell pool + 4 focus to resist. He gets 3 successes, reducing his drain to a serious stun.
End result wagemage is seriously stunned, one runner is fine, one runner is badly burned and going off like a fireworks factory.
How does this look, did i follow the correct steps? (ie you can just dodge a fireball)
Juzzman
hmmm,
1) additional targets apply no modifiers to the roll, this is not, after all, melee combat. As an AOE spell the fireball's going to be cooking both runners regardless of where you place it as well, but there's nothing that says you don't get the stationary target modifier if you target someone who isn't moving. Assuming no other modifiers, then, the Wage Mage's TN would be 3, giving him not two, but five successes, making the dodge/soak that much more difficult for our poor silly runner buddies.
also as a note, with a 15 die pool he only manages 3 sixes? Bad luck. He should probably spend karma on that one.
edit: the book says to treat the elemental manipulation like a normal ranged attack, but it also gives a list of modifiers that count (pg. 183, SR3), specifically cover, visibility, injury and sustaining modifiers. Also on Pg 182 it says to that Elemental Manipulation AOE's affect targets like an explosion or grenade blast. (I.E. all targets within the radius are affected, and each has the chance to dodge), this would indicate that movement modifiers are not to be taken into consideration, leaving the TN of this fireball at 4.
1) additional targets apply no modifiers to the roll, this is not, after all, melee combat. As an AOE spell the fireball's going to be cooking both runners regardless of where you place it as well, but there's nothing that says you don't get the stationary target modifier if you target someone who isn't moving. Assuming no other modifiers, then, the Wage Mage's TN would be 3, giving him not two, but five successes, making the dodge/soak that much more difficult for our poor silly runner buddies.
also as a note, with a 15 die pool he only manages 3 sixes? Bad luck. He should probably spend karma on that one.
edit: the book says to treat the elemental manipulation like a normal ranged attack, but it also gives a list of modifiers that count (pg. 183, SR3), specifically cover, visibility, injury and sustaining modifiers. Also on Pg 182 it says to that Elemental Manipulation AOE's affect targets like an explosion or grenade blast. (I.E. all targets within the radius are affected, and each has the chance to dodge), this would indicate that movement modifiers are not to be taken into consideration, leaving the TN of this fireball at 4.
No extra target modifier. That is only if you change targets during your action; for example, if you shoot one guy, then with your other simple action, shoot another guy, or when you are splitting a burst to hit multiple guys. Attacing a group of targets with an area of effect attack (like a grenade or fireball) does not incur the multiple target modifier.
Next, iirc, elemental manipulations are figured vs half impact armor, not full impact.
Last, the 'standing still' modifier should generally only be used when the targets are not expecting an attack (such as surprise) or a lack of real combat training/ability. Normal combatants are going to be ducking, etc, even if they are not moving much, they are hardly 'standing still'. Al long as the target is not doing something like aiming for multiple actions, or some similar static activity, anyway.
Also, note that the balance of damage level vs drain, it is quite often better to cast at a lower base damage level, so you need to hold less dice back to resist the drain:
Mr Wage mage is casting the fireball at 4M, looking at a drain of 3D. He's going to hold 3 dice back to resist drain (giving him 9 dice). This gives him 12 dice to trown on the attack.
Assuming our two runners are in 'combat mode' but not otherwise moving, in good light, in no cover, the TN for the fireball is 4.
getting: 2, 3, 2, 4, 3, 2, 5, 3, 6, 6, 5, 5 for 6 successes.
This means that the first runner doesn't dodge the fireball and is looking at soaking 4D vs half impact. The second runner didn't dodge, the two extra successes after deadly raising the base power of the fireball by 1 meaning that he is looking at 5D.
Now comes time for Mr wagemage to resist drain, we rolls 9 dice against TN 3 getting: 6, 4, 3, 4, 2, 2, 4, 5, 1 getting him 6 successes and staging the drain down to light.
So allocating the dice in a different way gets us runners that are more cooked and mages that are less drained. In general, the +2 drain TN for for drain codes over deadly is never worth the effort, unless you plan to take deadly drain anyway and then pain editor/trauma damper your way out of it.
Next, iirc, elemental manipulations are figured vs half impact armor, not full impact.
Last, the 'standing still' modifier should generally only be used when the targets are not expecting an attack (such as surprise) or a lack of real combat training/ability. Normal combatants are going to be ducking, etc, even if they are not moving much, they are hardly 'standing still'. Al long as the target is not doing something like aiming for multiple actions, or some similar static activity, anyway.
Also, note that the balance of damage level vs drain, it is quite often better to cast at a lower base damage level, so you need to hold less dice back to resist the drain:
Mr Wage mage is casting the fireball at 4M, looking at a drain of 3D. He's going to hold 3 dice back to resist drain (giving him 9 dice). This gives him 12 dice to trown on the attack.
Assuming our two runners are in 'combat mode' but not otherwise moving, in good light, in no cover, the TN for the fireball is 4.
getting: 2, 3, 2, 4, 3, 2, 5, 3, 6, 6, 5, 5 for 6 successes.
This means that the first runner doesn't dodge the fireball and is looking at soaking 4D vs half impact. The second runner didn't dodge, the two extra successes after deadly raising the base power of the fireball by 1 meaning that he is looking at 5D.
Now comes time for Mr wagemage to resist drain, we rolls 9 dice against TN 3 getting: 6, 4, 3, 4, 2, 2, 4, 5, 1 getting him 6 successes and staging the drain down to light.
So allocating the dice in a different way gets us runners that are more cooked and mages that are less drained. In general, the +2 drain TN for for drain codes over deadly is never worth the effort, unless you plan to take deadly drain anyway and then pain editor/trauma damper your way out of it.
Crusher: The extra successes raising the power of an attack only applies with Melee combat, not ranged or spells. He's still looking at 4D, but he's got to beat the extra successes first, meaning that he's going to need at least 10 successes on his body test to soak the damage.
Damaging manipulation spells tend to have really nasty Drain, but the sweet spot Drain-wise would be a Force: 5 Fireball learned as an exclusive spell, not to lower the cost of learning it, but to lower the Drain. In other words, the spell is treated as Force: 3 for figuring out Drain, and when you halve the spell's Force, you round down. So for casting a 5M fireball, the Drain would be 2D. You still need a lot of dice for soaking Drain, since it takes 8 successes to stage it down to no Drain, but it's definitely doable.
They (like most spells) also become a lot more manageable with a little Centering.
| QUOTE (Sharaloth) |
| Crusher: The extra successes raising the power of an attack only applies with Melee combat, not ranged or spells. He's still looking at 4D, but he's got to beat the extra successes first, meaning that he's going to need at least 10 successes on his body test to soak the damage. |
on the contrary, magic stages just like ranged and melee combat, (3ed anyway) every two net successes adds one to the damage code/power
| QUOTE (warrior_allanon @ Jan 27 2006, 05:29 PM) | ||
on the contrary, magic stages just like ranged and melee combat, (3ed anyway) every two net successes adds one to the damage code/power |
nope. Re-read the combat section, especially the Determine Outcome subheading in the ranged combat section, pg 113 SR3. Now read the Determine Damage section of the Melee Combat section, pg 123 SR3. Now notice that Elemental manipulation spells are treated as ranged combat.
The rule both you and Crusher are thinking of applies only to melee combat, not ranged or spells. With ranged and spells it's a direct comparison between Attackers successes and targets soak+dodge successes, whoever has more gets to stage the damage, the power of the attack is not modified.
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