Just picked up sr4 and our little gaming group have some questions:
One: You cast control actions on trollguy1, generating enough hits to sucessfully control their actions. According to the text you must spend a simple action to control the target. So that must mean that during trollguy1's next pass he would be allowed to take his full actions, then during the mages pass, he spends a simple to control him. This is where my ? is, does trollguy1 take 'controlled' actions during mages turn or during his? If its during trollguy1's turn does it just mean that the mage is in control of his actions? Also, during mages turn is he required to take a simple action each round concentrating?
Two: It sure seems as though mages are super pimped vs a street sam. Take an direct dmg spell such as ManaBall cast at force 12 (assuming a magic rating of 6), taking a spellcasting of 6, add those you get 12 dice to generate hits. Take average of 4 hits taht increases damage to force + net hits = 16. Thats resisted by willpower alone? Am i just missing something? I understand that indirect spells require a opposed magic+spellcast vs reaction. It just seems like a 'one trick pony' combat mage would be able to wreck just about any chromed out street sam.
Thanks in advance guys.
Full Version: Noob sr4 magic questions
i don't have a good answer to your first question. Though i would suggest having the troll take his action on the same initiative as the mage when said mages spends his simple action to initiate the trolls action.
As for the second, that might be true in a pit fight. Note that if the street sam goes first (which is quite possible) the mage may die outright before casting anything. Even if that's not the case, sammies have other merits. Eventually, everyone gets shot at. The question is, when you do get shot at, who would you rather be? Sammy might be more survivable. More reaction and body, and more body means you can wear more armor without penalty.
You can make a mage who's also very survivable. Get some sustaining foci and buff yourself with armor spells and the like. It just takes some effort.
As for the second, that might be true in a pit fight. Note that if the street sam goes first (which is quite possible) the mage may die outright before casting anything. Even if that's not the case, sammies have other merits. Eventually, everyone gets shot at. The question is, when you do get shot at, who would you rather be? Sammy might be more survivable. More reaction and body, and more body means you can wear more armor without penalty.
You can make a mage who's also very survivable. Get some sustaining foci and buff yourself with armor spells and the like. It just takes some effort.
Actually, getting back to the "control actions" thing, it raises some interesting questions. Let's say the mage is cybered, or has the increase reflexes spell active. That would mean that the troll might end up taking more actions than he physically could.
Maybe you spend simple actions to give mental commands, which aren't carried out until the troll goes on his own initiative. That seems problematic if the troll has more initiative passes than the mage.
This is a tough one.
Maybe you spend simple actions to give mental commands, which aren't carried out until the troll goes on his own initiative. That seems problematic if the troll has more initiative passes than the mage.
This is a tough one.
It seems to me that it would only make sence for the troll to go on his pass whereas the mage is using a forced suggestion to make him do something.
if the troll took the actions during the mages turn what would stop the mage from pretty much doubling the effectiveness of the troll?
example: pass one troll goes on 14, mage on 12, bad guys on 10.
Troll charges bad guys, getting into melee.
mage casts control actions on troll
bad guys melee troll
next pass
troll melee's bad guys more
mage uses simple action to tell troll to take another round of melee actions
bad guys go splat.
if the troll took the actions during the mages turn what would stop the mage from pretty much doubling the effectiveness of the troll?
example: pass one troll goes on 14, mage on 12, bad guys on 10.
Troll charges bad guys, getting into melee.
mage casts control actions on troll
bad guys melee troll
next pass
troll melee's bad guys more
mage uses simple action to tell troll to take another round of melee actions
bad guys go splat.
| QUOTE (Space Ghost @ Feb 3 2006, 09:47 AM) |
| Maybe you spend simple actions to give mental commands, which aren't carried out until the troll goes on his own initiative. That seems problematic if the troll has more initiative passes than the mage. |
That seems logical.
As for the initiative problem, maybe the troll follows the command until given another. For example; if told troll is told to shoot at opponent X, it does so until told otherwise. This could be interesting if X is dead (either by an earlier turn of the trolls or by someone else), and the mage doesn't have the chance to give him another command. It would just keep shooting the corpse until told otherwise...
The interesting part comes here, as described by Lechrac:
| QUOTE |
| example: pass one troll goes on 14, mage on 12, bad guys on 10. Troll charges bad guys, getting into melee. mage casts control actions on troll bad guys melee troll |
Would the troll defend itself, giving the bad guys some free attacks? I'm assuming that the mage can't give a command in the same action phase as the spell is cast, so would that mean the troll stands there motionless waiting for a command? I guess it comes down to whether the spell gives complete and utter control (like those hypnotists on TV), or whether a thought is implanted that the troll is compelled to follow, despite it being something it may not wish to do (I'm thinking like a possession of sorts where the troll is aware of what he is doing but unable to resist doing it).
| QUOTE (Lechrac @ Feb 3 2006, 04:54 AM) |
| Two: It sure seems as though mages are super pimped vs a street sam. Take an direct dmg spell such as ManaBall cast at force 12 (assuming a magic rating of 6), taking a spellcasting of 6, add those you get 12 dice to generate hits. Take average of 4 hits taht increases damage to force + net hits = 16. Thats resisted by willpower alone? Am i just missing something? I understand that indirect spells require a opposed magic+spellcast vs reaction. It just seems like a 'one trick pony' combat mage would be able to wreck just about any chromed out street sam. |
That's correct, rolling 12 dice (Magic + Spellcasting) will generate an average of 4 hits and therefore potentially do up to 16P off of a F12 Manaball. If the target manages to generate 4 hits on their Willpower (+ Counterspelling, if present) then there's zero damage done to the target.
Note, though, that your Magic 6 caster will have to soak 8P drain on Willpower + (Logic for hermetics, Charisma for shamans) for that F12 Manaball. That's roughly equivalent to shooting yourself with the infamous Ares Viper Slivergun for the opportunity to potentially kill all visible targets within the radius of your Manaball.
I'm not saying there won't be situations to where that'll be a good trade-off. I'm saying that overcasting big scary spells shouldn't be a casual practice.
I mean, if you're into that, I have a troll "melee grenadier" build you might also be interested in.
| QUOTE (Lechrac) |
| One: You cast control actions on trollguy1, generating enough hits to sucessfully control their actions. According to the text you must spend a simple action to control the target. So that must mean that during trollguy1's next pass he would be allowed to take his full actions, then during the mages pass, he spends a simple to control him. This is where my ? is, does trollguy1 take 'controlled' actions during mages turn or during his? If its during trollguy1's turn does it just mean that the mage is in control of his actions? Also, during mages turn is he required to take a simple action each round concentrating? |
THe way I interpreted the spell was similar to the control thoughts, just purely physical.
You cast spell, it takes hold, now whenever you take a simple action, the enext action of the person will be as such. If they have more passes than you, however, they will have free moments, since the spell lets them 'behave normally' whenever not given commands.
as far as initiative goes, I would suspect the caster and the puppet to 'match initiatives while the effect was there, but even I'm not entirely certain. ^-^;
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| I'm not saying there won't be situations to where that'll be a good trade-off. I'm saying that overcasting big scary spells shouldn't be a casual practice. I mean, if you're into that, I have a troll "melee grenadier" build you might also be interested in. |
Exactly!
I don't know why people keep talking about the F12 spells. It just wont happen in any sane gaming group, because it's just as insane as a melee granadier or cortex bomb wrestler. It may be doable with the right trinked out ratings, but it'd be impossible to justify in any selfrespecting gaming group.
| QUOTE (mintcar) |
| It may be doable with the right trinked out ratings, but it'd be impossible to justify in any selfrespecting gaming group. |
I think this is the core limiter. "Do unto others" and all that applies to PCs and GMs, as well. There's a reason most riggers don't put sniper rifles on their aerial drones. There's a reason that most mages don't overcast force 12 at every opportunity (aside from the fact that it makes you a one dimensional character).
It's because when you start doing it, the GM is forced to counter it. The methods the GM uses to stand up to a F12 spirit are likely to wipe the floor with the rest of the party when they get done with it. So, there's a courtesy aspect to it.
That, and the GM has to have the spine to say no. Or, preferably, say "So, you're really going to do that?" a few times while smiling evilly.
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome @ Feb 3 2006, 02:19 PM) |
| Or, preferably, say "So, you're really going to do that?" a few times while smiling evilly. |
I love it when I get to say that.
In my group, we would call this a one trick pony. One trick and he's done, either he's dead or their dead. Heaven forbid if the character concept was that he be able to do this over and over.
In my current group this is how it normally goes down -
The party relies on the mages buffs, the shaman's spirits and if the Adept, the Rigger (Hacker) or the Street Sam can't drop it, then they unlease their mage-nukes (Namely the mage ovecasts fireball at 9F - talk about a deadly thing to soak 10P!)
The Rigger has to function as driver, drone wrangler, and hacker - he gets pretty over worked.
The Street Sam is working to increase his non-combat effectiveness, ('cause while he rocks at killing the player is tired of just walking around waiting for firefights)
The Troll Adept - see the Sam
The Face - is too busy being a face to engage in combat though he carries flash paks and smoke grenades to assist - he can't fight worth a crap.
My point to all this is everyone could be combat monsters - but in most games this doesn't accomplish the mission.
In my current group this is how it normally goes down -
The party relies on the mages buffs, the shaman's spirits and if the Adept, the Rigger (Hacker) or the Street Sam can't drop it, then they unlease their mage-nukes (Namely the mage ovecasts fireball at 9F - talk about a deadly thing to soak 10P!)
The Rigger has to function as driver, drone wrangler, and hacker - he gets pretty over worked.
The Street Sam is working to increase his non-combat effectiveness, ('cause while he rocks at killing the player is tired of just walking around waiting for firefights)
The Troll Adept - see the Sam
The Face - is too busy being a face to engage in combat though he carries flash paks and smoke grenades to assist - he can't fight worth a crap.
My point to all this is everyone could be combat monsters - but in most games this doesn't accomplish the mission.
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) |
| I think this is the core limiter. "Do unto others" and all that applies to PCs and GMs, as well. There's a reason most riggers don't put sniper rifles on their aerial drones. There's a reason that most mages don't overcast force 12 at every opportunity (aside from the fact that it makes you a one dimensional character). |
Not exactly what I ment.
I mean that if you want to build a character that can reliably cast F12 spells, or summon F12 spirits—you would not only have to choose every rating on your character sheet for that purpose—but you would also have to give it a personality that allows hurting itself on the level of a shot to the head once in a while, because that gets rid of enemies. In addition to that, you would be the guy who made a completely unbelievable character only in the interest of breaking the game.
That's not very likely to happen in any gaming group I'd want to be a part of.
lol, cute.
THe only reason I want to see/use a force 12 spell (if I can use it at all) is for emergencies. Room full of scary guys? force 12 with edge so I can get as many successes as possible, knock them all/most flat, and bet my butt out of there!
A high power spell is for high power situations. If you use it for small fry, that's taking the canon to the security guard that just got his gun - overkill.
That, and it's hideously complicated to clean up the magical senses too. You're going to be sitting there for a few rounds cleaning up the signature. Now if youdidn't cause a ruckus you can get away with it, but if it was a fireball you threw....you're sporting wounds AND having to deal with clean up in a firestorm and/or more people from the big noise.
Similar result that should be for spirits, IMO. big things get big attention, and should be used for big emergencies. Unless, of course, you can clean up after it.
THe only reason I want to see/use a force 12 spell (if I can use it at all) is for emergencies. Room full of scary guys? force 12 with edge so I can get as many successes as possible, knock them all/most flat, and bet my butt out of there!
A high power spell is for high power situations. If you use it for small fry, that's taking the canon to the security guard that just got his gun - overkill.
That, and it's hideously complicated to clean up the magical senses too. You're going to be sitting there for a few rounds cleaning up the signature. Now if youdidn't cause a ruckus you can get away with it, but if it was a fireball you threw....you're sporting wounds AND having to deal with clean up in a firestorm and/or more people from the big noise.
Similar result that should be for spirits, IMO. big things get big attention, and should be used for big emergencies. Unless, of course, you can clean up after it.
Worse yet. You cast your spell, take wicked drain, then the one guy who was around the corner walks out and puts a light pistol round into your dome. i can't remember the last time i had to fight a group of enemies that all stood out in the open. There's usually a driver, or a guy who took full cover or a straggler. Especially in indoor fights.
Thanks for the responces guys!
Further into the initial question, does the troll have to follow an action that would take more than 1 round to complete?
Further into the initial question, does the troll have to follow an action that would take more than 1 round to complete?
The great thing about a classless system is that you can have a maxed body troll mage or a maxed willpower albino gnome sammie (never mind that albinos and gnomes aren't in SR4 yet).
| QUOTE (Space Ghost @ Feb 3 2006, 05:39 PM) |
| Worse yet. You cast your spell, take wicked drain, then the one guy who was around the corner walks out and puts a light pistol round into your dome. i can't remember the last time i had to fight a group of enemies that all stood out in the open. There's usually a driver, or a guy who took full cover or a straggler. Especially in indoor fights. |
Speaking of light pistols, anyone else notice just how sick the Yamaha Sakura Fubuki (aka the anime gun) is when used with stick-n-shock ammo?
Yamaha Sakura Fubuki 4P — SA/BF (1) 10 (ml) x 4 10R 2,000¥
The “Cherry-blossom Storm”
is the flagship for Yamaha’s new
line of electronic weapons that feature
no moving parts. Rather than
a standard magazine, the bullets
are stacked in-line in each of the
four barrels, allowing the firing of
ultra-fast short bursts. The Fubuki
may only fire narrow bursts (not wide), but burst recoil is
handled like SA recoil (–1 Recoil on the second burst each
Action Phase only). Includes an integral folding stock.
EDIT: Makes no sense for it to have 4 barrels when burst fire is 3 rounds. Just opens up a can of worms.
It's a great gun, the only drawback is the muzzle loading aspect of it, and even that's not much of a problem.
Grr, no hijacking my thread! NOOB magic questions here people! 
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