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Raizer
So, my question is this. When a character takes enough damage to exceed their physical condition monitor, what happens to the character. I see nowhere that I can find that they fall unconcious. The only rules I can find is that they continue to take 1 damage per Body in turns. Can they still function at this level or do they fall? If they fall unconcious does their stun monitor automaticall fill to full? What happens to them if they are stabilized? Do they wake? Do they stay ko'd? Till when? What happens if after being stabilized they are healed? Can they get right back up if their condition monitor for Stun wasn't filled?

I.E.: I had a player last night have their character get shot defending themselves from the Chiller Thrillers in the Food Fight adventure. Wendy finally got a good burst into him. His Stun monitor was at 2 but he had his Physical monitor completely filled.

What happens to him?

He was stabilized and then magically healed for a huge 5 boxes. Can he get up?
Darkness
Read again:
Page 153, Unconsciousness wink.gif

If either track is filled he's out.

If he can get back up after being stabilized is a GM call in the first place. His body should still be in shock after receiving a near mortal wound.
TinkerGnome
Beat me to it, but still:

QUOTE (SR4 p153)
Unconsciousness
When all of the available boxes in a track (Physical or Stun) are filled in, the character immediately falls unconscious and drops to the ground.
Churl Beck
I have a better question. The sidebar of page 184 describes what happens to magicians "while they are out" astrally projecting. It says that physical and stun damage are felt by both bodies, astral and physical. To me, this implies that dice penalties from physical wounds apply equally to characters in astral space. Yet it also says that if the physical body dies, the astral body can continue to project on the astral plane for Magic * 2 hours. But if physical wounds are felt in astral space, why doesn't death cause the astral body to fall unconscious?

One could argue that modifiers from physical wounds do not apply in astral space. After all, the character's astral form is based entirely on mental attributes. On the other hand, if that is the case then why do characters in astral combat have an option to inflict either physical or stun damage on their opponents? (pg. 184) Do characters in astral space have a physical condition monitor that is independent of their body? If not, then how does one knock an astral form unconscious without inflicting an irreversable coma on the body?
Darkness
Well it says, the mage continues to project. But nowhere it says he stays conscious.
It comes down to a GM call (or a later sourcebook) under which conditions one can regain consciousness if the monitor is filled.
His astral forms will remain in astral space floating around, IMHO.

Such things (for regaining consciousness) once existet in SR3. Let's see if they return in SR4.
Cold-Dragon
An astral form is dead/disrupted if the physical meter is filled out. An Astral form is merely disrupted if you stun it out. Therefore, you want to not harm the body if you're kidnapping it. nyahnyah.gif If you smack it around, however, you will quickly bring the spirit back in some fashion. If you straight out kill the body, however, then the link is severed, and there's no pulling the spirit back.

You're now 'free' to haunt to your hearts content, or summon a super spirit at the risk of your remaining life to get sweet ass revenge back home. Bet your murderers weren't expecting that.

IMO, of course.
Churl Beck
QUOTE (Darkness)
Well it says, the mage continues to project. But nowhere it says he stays conscious.
It comes down to a GM call (or a later sourcebook) under which conditions one can regain consciousness if the monitor is filled.
His astral forms will remain in astral space floating around, IMHO.

Such things (for regaining consciousness) once existet in SR3. Let's see if they return in SR4.

Well even if one assumes that a character regains consciousness after healing a single box of physical damage, the character must still be resting (i.e., unconscious) for at least 24 hours to regain it. He will be dead by that time (unless his Magic > 12), and so his lingering presence on the astral plane is irrelevant. Whereas in previous editions, such astral orphans were described as ghosts who wandered the astral plane in seek of one final revenge against their killers.

EDIT: not to mention the fact that it is kind of hard to regain a box of physical damage if the body is literally dead.
Shrike30
QUOTE (Churl Beck)
It says that physical and stun damage are felt by both bodies, astral and physical.

I'd always read that as meaning that you're aware of your meatbod taking abuse, not that you'd actively get penalties from it. An example:

A guy is cruising around the astral, minding his own business. Back in reality, his runner buddies have dragged his unconcious body into the back of their truck under a hail of gunfire from the 'Star, and are driving away at full speed when a slug comes through the tailgate and puts a nice hole in his bicep. In the astral, the character gets a strange twinging feeling in his upper arm, clueing him in to the fact that his body is taking some abuse, and goes whizzing on back to the safehouse... only to find that his body isn't there, and a bunch of strange, angry auras are.

The other reason that this is nifty (from a storytelling perspective) is you can get people "escaping" from traumatic or abusive events into the astral, where "they" are safe while their body takes the damage. Got three bullets in your belly and no anaesthetics on-hand at the street doc's house? That's one way to avoid the pain most mundanes don't have...
Churl Beck
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Feb 7 2006, 07:48 PM)
QUOTE (Churl Beck @ Feb 7 2006, 09:41 AM)
It says that physical and stun damage are felt by both bodies, astral and physical.

I'd always read that as meaning that you're aware of your meatbod taking abuse, not that you'd actively get penalties from it.

Well page 183 says "If the magician's physical body was injured when she astrally projects, her astral body manifests the same wounds." Granted, this passage is hardly unambiguous, but it sounds like it is implying that all physical wounds (along with their effects?) carry over onto the astral plane.
Darkness
QUOTE (Churl Beck @ Feb 8 2006, 01:38 AM)
[snip]
Well even if one assumes that a character regains consciousness after healing a single box of physical damage, [snip]

Ah, no. You got me wrong there.
It was once (in SR3 at least) possible to regain consciousness without the need to heal damage. Mostly through First Aid or some spells i vaguely remember. Those tests/ spells where directly for letting the unconscious one regaining consciousness.
Nowadays one could burn, as a houserule proposal, a point of Edge to do so, while still keeping his dice pool modifiers from his wounds. I would aim for something in line to the Dead Man Trigger rules.
Azralon
QUOTE (Churl Beck)
Granted, this passage is hardly unambiguous, but it sounds like it is implying that all physical wounds (along with their effects?) carry over onto the astral plane.

That's my interpretation as well. Keeps the paperwork easier, in any case.
Churl Beck
QUOTE (Darkness)
Ah, no. You got me wrong there.
It was once (in SR3 at least) possible to regain consciousness without the need to heal damage. Mostly through First Aid or some spells i vaguely remember. Those tests/ spells where directly for letting the unconscious one regaining consciousness.

I don't remember that, unless you are referring to Stim Patches. Those made the transition to SR4, however in the absence of general rules for regaining consciousness, the exact dosage needed is somewhat of a guess. (In SR3 you regained consciousness when the wound level was reduced to Serious.)
Darkness
No, not stim patches. *goes and checks his books*
Ah there.
In MITS on page 141 we find the Health Spell "Awaken", which would "raise" you from unconsciousness for a short period.
And on page 131 in Man and Machine we find "Consciousness" and, a little more downwards, "Reviving Unconscious Characters", in which we find the rules for reviving a character with Deadly (or more) Damage, without healing a box at all.
It was possible. But by no means easy.
That's why i would consider to modify the Dead Man Trigger rule of SR4 for such a situation.
ThreeGee
QUOTE
Those made the transition to SR4, however in the absence of general rules for regaining consciousness, the exact dosage needed is somewhat of a guess.


They don't work in the same way they did in SR3, do they? In SR4 they act as levels of Pain Resistance, reducing stun wound modifiers. It could be argued whether or not they actually prevent or cure unconsiousness due to stun.

Theoretically you can apply the stim patch before you take the stun, as long as you take stun whilst the patch is still active you don't feel it. Every Troll should have some!
Churl Beck
QUOTE (ThreeGee)
They don't work in the same way they did in SR3, do they?

The description is slightly different but the effect seems to be the same.

SR3: "reduce the Stun Damage on the character's Condition Monitor by a number of boxes equal to the patch's rating."

SR4: "ignore one box of damage per rating point when calculating wound modifiers."

Based on this, it depends on whether or not one considers "unconsciousness" to be a "wound modifier." But the SR4 description also adds "While a stimulant patch is in effect, the character is unable to rest." Given that unconsciousness counts as (forced) resting, I would say that a Stim Patched character is always awake.

I suppose this may also imply that a character only needs to heal one box of Stun damage to wake up.
Azralon
QUOTE (Churl Beck)
Based on this, it depends on whether or not one considers "unconsciousness" to be a "wound modifier."

I think I would. That would let a level 1 stimpatch wake someone up -- just barely, but awake nonetheless.

And yeah, that would also mean that their damage tracks would be frozen with regards to rested recovery until the patch was gone. I like it.
ThreeGee
QUOTE
The description is slightly different but the effect seems to be the same.


The effect on the wound modifier is the same, but the full game effect is different. In SR3 stim patches reduced stun damage on application, you had to have taken stun damage for them to have any effect, but they actually 'healed' damage. In SR4 they act as stun Pain Resistance, once applied the character ignores stun damage modifiers up to the patches rating, but that stun is still there. In SR4 a stim patch with a rating equal to the characters stun track acts as a one use, temporary pain editor. If you know when your going into combat you can apply the thing before your GM calls for initiative...
Churl Beck
QUOTE (Azralon)
QUOTE (Churl Beck @ Feb 9 2006, 01:46 PM)
Based on this, it depends on whether or not one considers "unconsciousness" to be a "wound modifier."

I think I would. That would let a level 1 stimpatch wake someone up -- just barely, but awake nonetheless.

And yeah, that would also mean that their damage tracks would be frozen with regards to rested recovery until the patch was gone. I like it.

Unfortunately, the stronger statement ("While a stimulant patch is in effect, the character is unable to rest.") could be problematic. If unconsciousness = resting, then a Stimmed character can never fall unconscious, regardless of what wounds are inflicted after the Patch is applied. E.g., a character takes Stun damage and is knocked unconscious, a Rating 1 Stim Patch is applied, and then the character takes Stun damage again--but the new damage does not render him unconscious. I guess it's time to introduce the concept of "restless unconsciousness" while under the effects of a Stim Patch.
Churl Beck
QUOTE (ThreeGee @ Feb 9 2006, 01:33 PM)
The effect on the wound modifier is the same, but the full game effect is different.  In SR3 stim patches reduced stun damage on application, you had to have taken stun damage for them to have any effect, but they actually 'healed' damage.  In SR4 they act as stun Pain Resistance, once applied the character ignores stun damage modifiers up to the patches rating, but that stun is still there.  In SR4 a stim patch with a rating equal to the characters stun track acts as a one use, temporary pain editor.  If you know when your going into combat you can apply the thing before your GM calls for initiative...

That's a good point, but I was specifically addressing whether or not they had the same effect on unconscious characters. I would say yes, if for no other reason than that it is supposed to be a stimulant, not an analgesic. Although an "Aspirin Patch" is not a bad idea in its own right...
ThreeGee
QUOTE
In SR4 a stim patch with a rating equal to the characters stun track acts as a one use, temporary pain editor.


Although having just read the rules, of course the maximum rating for a stim patch is 6, so you'd have to be pretty unwillful...
Azralon
QUOTE (Churl Beck)
If unconsciousness = resting, then a Stimmed character can never fall unconscious, regardless of what wounds are inflicted after the Patch is applied.

<snip>

I guess it's time to introduce the concept of "restless unconsciousness" while under the effects of a Stim Patch.

"Restless unconsciousness." Exactly.
nick012000
QUOTE (Azralon)
QUOTE (Churl Beck @ Feb 9 2006, 02:42 PM)
If unconsciousness = resting, then a Stimmed character can never fall unconscious, regardless of what wounds are inflicted after the Patch is applied.

<snip>

I guess it's time to introduce the concept of "restless unconsciousness" while under the effects of a Stim Patch.

"Restless unconsciousness." Exactly.

Or, just let Stun damage overflow into Physical, and let him keep going even after all his tracks are filled, and he starts dying (i.e. until he takes Overdamage).

So, stim patches = 'You won't take me alive!'. cyber.gif
Churl Beck
QUOTE (nick012000)
Or, just let Stun damage overflow into Physical, and let him keep going even after all his tracks are filled, and he starts dying (i.e. until he takes Overdamage).

So, stim patches = 'You won't take me alive!'. cyber.gif

Except that he can never die as long as he keeps applying Stim Patches.
nick012000
Yes, he will. Stun patches might prevent unconsciousness and remove wound modifiers that accumalate as a result of Stun damage, but they don't do antthing for Physical damage.
mintcar
Because stim patches use the same rules as High Pain Tolerance, it's impossible to view unconsciousness as a wound modifier. Because if you did, characters with that quality could never fall unconscious. The argument that unconsciousness is rest, and you can't rest while under the influence of stim patches, is silly. You can't bennefit from rest, possibly you can't go to sleep on your ownóbut off course you can still be knocked senseless given enough force.

Still, I too would like to find a way of bringing back the stim patch's ability to keep you on your legs longer in a fight. I will propably rule that stims make it so that it takes (rating) boxes of physical overflow damage before you go to sleep. But I don't think it's canon.
Churl Beck
QUOTE (mintcar)
Because stim patches use the same rules as High Pain Tolerance, it's impossible to view unconsciousness as a wound modifier. Because if you did, characters with that quality could never fall unconscious.

(1) Characters are limited to buying 3 points of High Pain Tolerance. There is no such limitation for Stim Patches. (2) Nowhere does it say that characters with High Pain Tolerance cannot rest. That is unique to Stim Patches.

QUOTE
The argument that unconsciousness is rest, and you can't rest while under the influence of stim patches, is silly.


Of course it is. That's the point. I'm just too lazy to resurrect the "Rules that Aren't" thread.
Azralon
I think the logic flaw (brought on by RAW wording) is the assumption that "unconsciousness is resting." It'd be more useful to think of it as "unconsciousness can cause resting" and "stimpatches disallow resting."

Think about it like this:

"Resting" and "Unconscious" are two different states of being. When you gain the "Unconscious" state, you automatically also gain the "Resting" state.

When a stimpatch is applied, it removes at least one box of Stun, which triggers the removal of the Unconscious state. A separate function of the stimpatch is that it negates the Rested state for its duration.

So someone can be in four states:

1) Not unconscious, not resting. This is me mowing the lawn.
2) Not unconscious, resting. This is me watching TV.
3) Unconscious, resting. This is me sleeping.
4) Unconscious, not resting. This is me on drugs.
Churl Beck
QUOTE (Azralon)
I think the logic flaw (brought on by RAW wording) is the assumption that "unconsciousness is resting." It'd be more useful to think of it as "unconsciousness can cause resting" and "stimpatches disallow resting."

I assure you that your explanation is unnecessary.

QUOTE

So someone can be in four states:

1) Not unconscious, not resting. This is me mowing the lawn.
2) Not unconscious, resting. This is me watching TV.
3) Unconscious, resting.  This is me sleeping.
4) Unconscious, not resting.  This is me on drugs.


Let's go back to the topic which started this digression, since that is more interesting anyway.

1) Not unconscious, not dead. This is an astrally projecting magician.
2) Not unconscious, dead. This is a ghost.
3) Unconscious, dead. Does the astral form dissipate immediately or stick around?
4) Unconscious, not dead. This is a coma victim. If one continuously inflicts Stun damage on the body for 12 hours or so, eventually the astral form will die on its own.

Too bad #2 isn't possible with the RAW. It certainly won't happen by Stim Patching a cold body.
Azralon
QUOTE (Churl Beck)
QUOTE (Azralon @ Feb 10 2006, 12:23 PM)
I think the logic flaw (brought on by RAW wording) is the assumption that "unconsciousness is resting."  It'd be more useful to think of it as "unconsciousness can cause resting" and "stimpatches disallow resting."

I assure you that your explanation is unnecessary.

For some. If anything, it's good form to cite your givens.
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