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September
Because I can only read so much of the Ancient Files in one sitting, and these are burning into my brain...

1) What are dragonkin elves? Is Nadja Daviar coming to mind for a reason?

2) Is Lofwyr some kind of anti-drake guy? Am I reading into something that's not there? Or is it just a coincidence he's at odds with 'Doll Maker'?

Not really a crossover question...I think...

3) Uh...what's with Damien Knight?
Ancient History
QUOTE
Because I can only read so much of the Ancient Files in one sitting, and these are burning into my brain...

1) What are dragonkin elves? Is Nadja Daviar coming to mind for a reason?

Elves descended from dragons. Apparently, certain Great Dragons assumed metahuman form and had children on elven women, the resulting children (and some of their children) where dragonkin elves. Immortal Elves are dragonkin, they may have been subjected to an additional magical process to actually become immortal.

As far as can be determined, no, Nadja Daviar isn't a dragonkin.

QUOTE
2) Is Lofwyr some kind of anti-drake guy? Am I reading into something that's not there? Or is it just a coincidence he's at odds with 'Doll Maker'?

Not anti-drake, no. In fact, he has a drake named Scale. He's at odds with Ghostwalker because they're the two biggest, baddest dragons in the world at the moment. It's like seeing the two biggest kids at school fighting over who gets to take your lunch money.

QUOTE
3) Uh...what's with Damien Knight?

Former hacker who fought (and perhaps helped cause) the virus that caused the Crash of 2029. Dunkelzahn helped him buyout Ares (in the infamous Nanosecond Buyout), and the dragon and hacker made the corp a AAA over the years. It gets a little more complicated than that, especially after Dunkie died.
Calvin Hobbes
Damien Knight knows what's best for America.
SL James
Damien Knight is George Bush?
Critias
Damien Knight hates black people !!
Oracle
Damien Knight is uninteresting. Let's talk about Ryan Mercury... rotfl.gif
SL James
... who isn't a Mary Sue, and if he is isn't nearly as bad as Talon who still pales compared to the uber-Mary Sue, Jack Ryan (There, I said it.).

Moving on...
MK Ultra
DK hit RM in the face love.gif (well with the help of his KE Firewatch) and earned Gavilan Ventures voting power for 2 years. I´ll always love that old (leonized), probably crashviruz programming, warmongering, nukethrowing, bugraising fragger for that one. biggrin.gif
Beaumis
QUOTE
Elves descended from dragons. Apparently, certain Great Dragons assumed metahuman form and had children on elven women, the resulting children (and some of their children) where dragonkin elves. Immortal Elves are dragonkin, they may have been subjected to an additional magical process to actually become immortal.

As far as can be determined, no, Nadja Daviar isn't a dragonkin.
Sorry but this is not entirely true.

Elves at large do not decent from dragons. The *original* Elves of Wyrmwood and later Bloodwood do. Elves along with all other namegivers were created by the second (and following) tear(s) of Nightslayer, the honoi who left the dark ones domain. Dragons were created by the first drop btw.

The Elves of Wyrmwood were created by Alamaise. Alamaise was lonely and the passions Jaspre and Astendar created Oak heard a grand tree around which later the Wyrm wood would form. In time, he wanted servants for his domain, which then streched over what is now Bloodwood and most of the northern realms above it, but did not deem the normal namegivers worthy of the task. So he made a deal with the passions Jaspre and Astendar to allow him to creature creatures of his blood to serve him. He took humanoid form and mated with severall elven women. The first of the hybrids born Caynreth. (This name also appears in the legends of the elves, but if any of them know at all, I personally suspect at least Alachia, Harlequin, Ehran and Aina do, but probably no more than these four. There are also reasons what would exclude Harlequin and Ehran from the list.)
It's important however to note that this was Alamaise alone. There isnt a single source im aware of that suggests other dragons made a similar deal.
In fact, the "failure" of Alamaise to create suitable servants led to the creation of the first Drakes and later the experiments for a Drake Hybrid.

The elves forgot the truth, or prevented it from spreading, this is unknown, and lived their own lives, ignoring the dragons. When Alamaise claimed Wyrm Wood to be his and Killed Dallia elves at large turned from the dragons.
It is important to note that since the Wyrmwood became the heart of Elvendom in Barsaive and home of the elven court it is impossible to tell who is a child of Alamaise and who isn't. Since elves from all over Barsaive went there to live over a timeline of milenia the genepool is completly mixed up. This is part of the reasons why the knowledge of the "Draconic Elves" faded into legend.

More children were born and legends go in severall directions from there on, by basically it boils down to the following.

There are two types of elves. The "normal" elves, created by Nighslayer along with all the other Namegivers and the ones that resulted from Alamaise mating (and probably magical help) with elven women. The later ones are immortal because of the dragon blood, the former ones just live long. Due to the countless centuries of mixing of the blood there is basically no way to tell who is Immortal and who is not beyond the known characters. The events around Ehran and Frosty prove that the "draconic" gene is not dominant, so there is a random factor that determines who is immortal and who isnt.

Nadja Diavar might be immortal, but there is no proof of that.

Note, Sources for the Above are ED1 Horros, ED1 The Blood Wood, ED1 Dragons along with some others that had no real impact.
Ancient History
Beaumis, I feel we have a failure to communicate. I was not implying that all elves are descended from dragons - only dragonkin elves.

Also, just FYI, not all the elves in the Wyrm Wood were dragonkin, and there is evidence of dragonkin elves originating from outside the Wood, which makes it likely they were the result of other Great Dragons. I expound on it much more fully here.
Sharaloth
I thought the oldest IE's were from the Second World? Doesn't that predate the Wyrm Wood?
MK Ultra
There have also been Dragonkin not of Alamais descendance and probably some not of elven metatype, they are not immortal however. Most notably the rueling family of Iophos sired by Denairastas. ED1 Dragons even gives rules for dragon kin.

Somewere (probably ED Dragons, too) It is indicated that many Dragons may have had dragonkin but it was forbidden after Caynreth and the other Elves of Whyrmwood rebelled against Alamais.

Allso some hints of dragon kin in SR fiction exist. One of Big D´s watchers (Akira Kageyama in Vancouver) may be one of them, and another likely candidate occures in "Tails you Loose", too.

EDIT: I allso got the impression that not all IE´s are of draconic decendance, but I did not read "The Foreverdrug" and know very little about ED.
Beaumis
QUOTE
  I thought the oldest IE's were from the Second World? Doesn't that predate the Wyrm Wood?
The oldest IE I know of would be Alachia. She's the only one who is hinted at knowing the ancient magic of naming. If might predate Wyrmwood, but not Oak Heart. Elven history and myth all start at that source, with the sole exception of the seven heroes who enter the city of the passions.

QUOTE
  Beaumis, I feel we have a failure to communicate. I was not implying that all elves are descended from dragons - only dragonkin elves.
Ah, sorry about that then. wink.gif

QUOTE
Also, just FYI, not all the elves in the Wyrm Wood were dragonkin, and there is evidence of dragonkin elves originating from outside the Wood, which makes it likely they were the result of other Great Dragons. I expound on it much more fully here.
Of course they werent and couldnt be. Caynreth was and so were probably a few other children, but for all the events to take place there had to be elves in wyrmwood allready both as mates for Alamaise and parents to the "dragonkin" children.
What I was refering to was that the elves that inhabited Wyrmwood at that point (When Alamaise wanted new servants and made his deal) weren't actually from Wyrmwood. The true *place* of origin for elves is unknown, though my bet for the first elven civilisation would be Sereatha, the City of Spires.
A fictional timeline would look like this:

01. Races are created by Nightbane
02. Dragons take their domains among them Alamaise claiming what would become Wyrmwood
03. Namegivers became Namegives by entering the City of the Passions.
04. Namegivers spread over the world, founding civilisations. Sereatha is founded among others.
05. Elves enter Alaimses' domain. He lets them because he lusts for servants.
06. Alamaise is lonely, the passions create Oak Heart.
07. Alamaise deems elves unfit to serve him and makes his deal with the passions. He mates with severall elven women.
08. Caynreth is born, possibly others and raised by the elves that live there.
09. Centuries or Millenia pass, and the elves forget the buisness with Alamaise. Caynreth as the first elf created by the passion becomes their legend.
Dragons in general consider Alamaises' attempt to create servants a failure and turn to their creation of drakes.
10. The elven court is formed, basically it is justified on the (wrong) legend of Caynreth and the presence of Oak Heart in the Wyrmwood. Melyora becomes the first elven queen.
11. Shosara adopts Human boat designs, an outcry runs through the elven court. Dallia decides to travel to Shosara and is slain by Alamaise.

With all this, we have to keep in mind we are talking about growing civilisations with ties to each other. There is no telling how many children resulted from Alamaises mating and what they did or where they lived. We know for a fact that several of the Immortal elves originate from Sereatha (Harlequin, Ehran, Alachia and I believe Aithne.), so I would say it is a relativly safe bet that at least some of them went there and had children of their own. This would be reasonably placed at point 8 of the timeline above.
What became of Caynreth is unknown, but legend has it that she is one of the 9 heroes who created the heart of heroes. This however conflicts with the legend that the HoH was created by the 9 who enter the city of the passions.

My personal guess is that Alachia is one of the original children of Alamaise. Noone really knows where she came from or how she ascendet the rose throne. While she claims to have originated from Sereatha, noone knows for sure. She is far older than all of the other IEs and wields magic beyond any of them, with *maybe* the exception of Harlequin and Ehran, though neither of them knows the magic of naming. Alachia is one of the big enigmas in earthdawn and even when sourcebooks spoke of her they told little more but what the rest of the world *thought* to know about her. Her inner beeings are almost always left in the dark and she hasnt opened to anyone in all her years.
My second personal guess is that Harlequin knows and this is the reason why he could do whatever he wanted at the elven court without her so much as looking angry at him.

In Endless Worlds Aina hints at the wrong the elves have done the dragons, while Harlequin takes a rather typical stance. I personally believe Aina is one of the few who knows of the true history and took the dragons side as their creator. However, this is a guess.

There may have been other dragons creating IEs, but I have never read anything that would suggest this aside from the fact that some IEs originated from Sereatha. However, I find the explanation that the IEs just traveled around and had children who also traveled around more likely than other dragons willing to repeat Alamaises' "mistake". This is also underlines by the fact that Alamaise had to strike a bargain with the passions for this to be possible. The details of that bargain are unknown, but with the parties involved it would have been something large. My personal theorie is that the passions wanted to teach the dragons a lesson and that they deemed the creation of new life their own turf (if anyones at all. Since the passions are the fragments of the splintered beeing of Nightslayer, it is questionable if they consider creation anyones buisness but that of their former collective self.).

I read the Ancient files more then once, and I will say it again, they are a resource to be proud of. wink.gif

Just as a sidenote though, unless Im missing an Alias, isnt Hessler missing on that list? The elf from the Black Madonna novel? Severall things in the book, the least of which beeing his knowledge about Leonardo, suggest that he is one of the crowd as well. Though, not necessarily one from ED.
Ancient History
Hessler was a Spike Baby, not an IE.

There is evidence that some IEs might have been made during the Age of Dragons (2nd Age), Pre-Wyrm Wood, but most of those references are in the Theran Empire sourcebook (and a few in [url=http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/EDDragons.pdf]Dragons[/rul]).

Alachia is most likely the oldest living IE. The oldest one on record (if you include mythology) would be Alamais' first daughter, Caynreth (which is likely a pseudonym).

As for Alamaise being lonely...well, i just have a different opinion 'bout that.
Beaumis
QUOTE
  Hessler was a Spike Baby, not an IE.
Didnt know that. Does he appear anywhere else? The way he talked in Black Madonna I figured him for one of the old guys.

As for the IE evidence, I dont recall any mention of them in the Therra book, but that might be because I have a great dislike for it and didnt read it that thourougly. I'd be gratefull if you could narrow that down if you know it from the top of your head.
The only mention in the Dragons book I can recall was the authors comment that the draconic elves weren't Alamaise doing alone, but they always speak of his children, Sincewhich led me to believe that the other dragons probably gave advice or watched closely, but basically kept out of it.
As for evidence in the 2nd Age, well, Alamaise did all that in the 2nd age. smile.gif

Logic dictates that Caynreth would be the oldest, though since we dont know anything about her besides that name I tend to ignore her. My former DM and I had this theory that Caynreth took on the personality of Melyora to form the Elven Court and then entered Oak Heart to enternally watch over it. Our idea was that by entering and merging with Oak Heart she altered the Pattern of Wyrmwood to exclude Alamaise from it. She knew that even with all the power the elves could muster they werent unable to defeat him. And she probably rightly feared that the other dragons might assist him, should he ever try to reclaim Wyrmwood.
In merging with it she might have been able to force the magic to prevent Alamaise from entering or even Dragons as a whole. This would also explain why he chose to wait for Queen Dallia to leave Wyrmwood to claim it again. (I know he slept for a thousand years or so, but he could just have entered Wyrmwood)
By taking on a different Personality she would be in an excelent position to "change" elven history as to exclude the truth about Alamaise, giving the elves an identity of their own without the dragons.
Though, as so many other things in ED, this is just a theory. I like it anyway.

About Alamaise beeing lonely, it was just a simple term to bring the point across. Noone knows why he convinced the passions to plant it. But your right, it's the wrong word in any case.

Seems like my players were wrong and there actually are people who spend more time on ED lore than me. biggrin.gif
Ancient History
[QUOTE] Hessler was a Spike Baby, not an IE.[/QUOTE] Didnt know that. Does he appear anywhere else? The way he talked in Black Madonna I figured him for one of the old guys.[/quote]
Prime Runners

[quote]As for the IE evidence, I dont recall any mention of them in the Therra book, but that might be because I have a great dislike for it and didnt read it that thourougly. I'd be gratefull if you could narrow that down if you know it from the top of your head.[/quote]
It's scattered, and only paints a larger picture when seen in conjunction with Dragons. Check Indrisia for mentions of elves, re-read the history of Thera with an eye toward what happened between the lines, and look for the weirder stuff in Vasgothia.

Caynreth is most probably a nickname, but I don't doubt Alamaise slew her after the blow she dealt him.

I went over this in my (very ancient) Alamais(e) Conspiracy, but Alachia is from the Western Kingdoms...and her progenitor may well be no less than Lofwyr.

[quote]
Seems like my players were wrong and there actually are people who spend more time on ED lore than me. biggrin.gif[/quote]

Yeah...
Beaumis
Prime runners, that abomination of a failed product... I'll check it out. Thanks for that and the other stuff. wink.gif

Alachia beeing of Lowyrs blood would be... interesting. I'll have to give that some thought. Safe to say the two of them do share some personality traits. Both of them beeing vicious, rutheless bitches. biggrin.gif
I'll never forget her masterfull manipulation of Aithne to oppose Aina in worlds without end. Thing o'beaty.

I do recall reading explicity that Caynreth survived the encounter with Alamaise. I'll give the Dragons book a look once I had some sleep.

Nighty night.
nick012000
I thought the timeline was more along the lines of this:
Second Age:
-Dragons create IE's as servants
-Dragons stuff up, and release Horrors
-Dragons start the magic cycles
-IE's lead rebellion against dragons as mana level drops
Third Age:
-IEs lead metahumanity to build civilization
Fourth Age:
-Alamaise turns up to the Queen of Wyrm Wood, demands that she serve him. She refuses, he blows her up. Bad blood starts.
-Dragons decide to create drakes as their new servants, to avoid repeating their mistakes.
-Stuff happens.
Fifth Age:
-Stuff happens.
-IEs manipulate society
Sixth Age:
-As 5th Age, but with magic.
stevebugge
What happened in the first age?
Sharaloth
Verjigorm happened.
stevebugge
QUOTE (Sharaloth @ Feb 9 2006, 08:52 AM)
Verjigorm happened.

That should be a bumper sticker, or at the very least sigged.


[Edit]Done, but I changed it a little bit.
hyzmarca
The Age of Darkness could be age zero rather than age one. If the trend of odd ages being downcycles was around then it would have to be.

Age of Darkness, Verjigorm rules.
Nightslayer sacrifices himself in an act of mondo blood magic to force the mana level below what the horrors need to survive.
Verjigorm interfers with the spell at the last minute causing the mana cycle that we know.

First Age = downcycle.
Second Age = Age of Dragons
Third Age = downcycle
Fourth Age = Age of Legends.
Fifth Age = downcycle
Sixth Age = Shadowrun
Ancient History
And, of course, anything before the Age of Dragons is all mythology so it could be bullshit...
Sharaloth
in the ED Horrors book Ysrthgrathe seems to say that there've been way more than two mana cycles, making the entire numbered ages thing no more than your average calendar years writ large.
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