All right, as I understand things, you're wanting ways of dealing with the elemental attack pack strategy. There's no reason to start screwing over your players, since if you enforce the rules as written, you can easily make the trick too expensive to pull off frequently.

First of all, a mage can only have up to CHA in bound elementals. So, if he's only got CHA 3, he can only have an attack pack of 3. That's not really game-breaking. If you've got a player who built his character as a one-trick pony, you might have to deal with as many as 8; but that character wouldn't be too good at anything else, and can be dealt with in other ways.

The next thing to remember is that elementals cost money. A force 6 elemental costs 6000 each. Even though there's no street index on it, remember that the availiability is also 6, which means getting more than one set of force-6 supplies at a time is going to be difficult. Your player might go for weaker spirits, which is fine-- weaker spirits aren't as much of a problem. In fact, attack packs that are mostly Force 3 or lower can be dealt with using normal weapons.

Following this is the actual summoning. First of all, does the character have an appropriate circle? Or space to draw one? A circle six meters across equals twenty-plus feet in American measurements. Further, can he light a bonfire inside, haul in a hundred pounds of raw earth, light dozens of incense sticks without setting off a smoke alarm, or have a fish tank large enough to hold a hundred gallons of water? These are all practical considerations, which mean that the hermetic can't simply set up anywhere and start summoning.

And then, there's the conjuring test. Given a character with Conjuring 6, he'll only score 1 success against a Force 6 spirit. Sure, there are ways of getting more dice, but they all apply to only one spirit type. This may not be a disadvantage in the player's mind, but in all practicality, he won't be likely to have more than one or two successes on his conjuring roll. That means that he'll only get one or two uses of the astral attack pack, assuming that he doesn't need the spirits for anything else.

So, we've spent 36,000 , and have a maximum of two uses of a force-6 astral attack pack. That means we've spent at least 18,000 per use! Sure, it's a nasty trick to pull, but at that cost, it better be! As long as you're enforcing the core rules, this will be too expensive to be used on a regular basis. And even if he saves it for your big baddies, there's nothing that prevents the high-powered opposition from having astral attack packs of their own. That means the astral attack pack strategy is best used as a last-ditch maneuver, or when there's no other alternative. There is absolutely no need to gimp the maneuver, or to create special rules to deal with it.

As far as the mage/shaman thing goes, shamans have the huge advantage of being able to summon on the spot, without spending a dime. Sure, a mage can conjure an attack pack, given enough time and money. But if he hasn't spent that time and money already, he can't pull it off mid-run. Smart shaman players can also to the multi-domain trick: while standing on the outskirts of a city park, he can start by conjuring a City Spirit, and sending it after his opposition. He then "switches domains", losing any further services from the city spirit, but allowing him to conjure a Forest spirit to attack his enemies. He then repeats the trick to summon a Sky spirit. He's effectively summoned an astral attack pack of his own, and hasn't spent any money to do so.

Is this an assumption or do you have ?

I just keep seeing a huge earth elemental sailing from the top of one skyscraper to the next and thinking that's not right.

Does an earth elemental get a +1 TN modifier every time it is exposed to air? (Vulnerability)

Does a concussion grenade do +1 damage level to earth elementals? What is the damage code for a vacuum cleaner? For a fan? (Vulnerability - air)

Neither. They have 3d movement which is different; assume that they can move anywhere they want with no real (non-magical) limitations. They are simply not subject to physics.

That is an option sometimes. Nothing is stopping them except their choice of tactics and/or their orders and/or their environment.

It depends on the spirit and on the targets. Spirit affinity/spirit bane, for example, will modify the spirit's behavior. Consider the type of spirit and the type of orders being given; obviously a spirit cannot disobey direct orders, but some are bloodthirstier than others. For example, Hearth spirits, being spirits of man who live in the home, might try to avoid killing the inhabitants of the home, but may be inclined to be harsher on intruders... but if ordered directly by the summoner, they don't really have a choice.

Answer: Yes, if the spirit is inclined/ordered/capable of doing so. Keep in mind that just ordering a spirit to "kill that group over there" leaves the means to the spirit's discretion. As such, the complexity/savviness of the tactics will vary with the intelligence of the spirit; the determination will likewise vary with the spirit's personality. Leaving the means to the spirit only costs you one service (and one action), but the results will vary as different spirits may take different paths to the same goal.

OTOH, imo, explicitly requiring the use of certain powers requires a separate order -- although you can say, "Use confusion on those people over there" as one order.

Wait until the fact that karma pool can be used between runs -- and if you have a decent amount of downtime between runs, it will refresh -- sinks in.

Engulf is an exclusive complex action, so it can not carry on melee without ending the engulf.

Floating and flying are both dependant on aerodynamics and physical properties. 3D movement pretty much allows them to move at will, which contradicts many different laws of physics.

They can do so, which is why high-powered ranged weapons is usually a good option. However, it's worth noting that spirits have neither a magic rating or spell pool (according to the BBB, only dragons do), which means that the spirit can't use spell pool dice to boost the attack. Since they *do* have a combat pool, they can throw more dice in melee, potentially doing more damage.

Dependant on you, the roleplay, and the intelligence of the spirit. A character who is rude or arrogant to his spirits won't get the same response as someone who works closely with them. Low force spirits are also less intelligent, so they're less likely to come up with good tactics. Finally, bear in mind that a lot of nature spirit powers won't directly help with the goal of "killing that group of guards". Confusion, for example, isn't generally harmful. The wording the character uses is very important, and can easily restrict the options a spirit is likely to use.

As Vaevictis pointed out, yes, if the spirit is ordered to do so. However, I can't think of a single command that would make a spirit do all four at once. If you want them off your back, the spirit might be inclined to use Confusion and/or Fear; if you wanted them hurt, it may decide to use Accident and/or melee attacks. But if you just throw something vauge, like "get rid of those guys", the spirit gets to choose its own tactics, and will probably only select one of the four.

That's fine. He's got five services out of a single spirit. I'll bet that he doesn't have five services on all of them. He still can't use the astral attack pack option very often, because each use costs him a service from each spirit. The cumulative cost across all the spirits is what makes this a pricey option.

As Vaevictis pointed out, the easiest way of dealing with a single large spirit is the Watcher Attack Pack™. Summon up a bundle of force 3 watchers, and have them jump the spirit in unison. The Friends in Melee bonuses mean that even high-powered astral opposition will get worn down very quickly.

I looked in the BBB in the spirit and dragon section and for the materialization power. I checked the Critters entries for elementals, nature spirits, and the materialization power. I checked MitS the first few pages of the spirits chapter. Nothing about them getting 3D Movement, flight or Levitation.

It would be silly to say an earth elemental gets to float through the sky like a puffy white cloud, too.

I can maybe see the spirit exploiting its form to become airborn. Maybe it appears as a mist , cloud , bird or balloon.

Why? Just apply normal falling damage if they impact without reverting to the astral plane.

The ability to move astrally allows a spirit to materialize in myriad places. And they do have the equivalent of 3D Movement while on the astral plane. But I have yet to see anyone find an explanation to assume they get 3D Movement, Flight or Levitation automatically on the physical plane.

FYI, SR4 (which is obviously not the version you are arguing) states the following:

I like this because it keeps crafty players from having their earth spirit materialize ten feet above the bad guys and fall on top of them (which would probably be instantly fatal). Of course, SR4 also gives air spirits flight as a power, so who knows. I guess one way to look at it is that not being subject to gravity doesn't grant any means of locomotion to the spirit.