First of all, this is strictly in the spirit of SR3, I don't give a toss how damage codes have changed in SR4.

I find it nice that there's pistols the size or smaller than your palm, but the fact that pisses me off, is that you can't even kill anyone with them. Okay, if you got pistols 6 and make a called shot, you can probably stage the damage up to D from 4L, but still, they're a bit lame.

So I was thinking about raising damage codes up a notch, from L to M and so on. I'm still hesitating because obviously this makes the game more deadly and might cause some game-balance issues. But has anyone done this, or something similar?

Another alternative might be to just raise L-damage codes to M's, and leave the rest as it is, but then again, I think that you should really be able to easily kill someone with almost of a handcannon that some of the heavy pistols are, and 9M is nice, but just might not be enough.

Opinions?

Who is it that you want to be able to kill with a palm pistol? An average Joe on the street? Or a shadowrunner wearing body armor? Is your objection that you find the pocket pistols unrealistic, or that you feel they're useless in-game?

My personal take on 4L pistols is this:

1. EX-EX ammo is readily available and makes them considerably deadlier weapons.

2. A skilled shooter that uses combat pool throws enough dice that he can do a lot of damage even with a POS dillinger.

3. They're not really supposed to be highly effective weapons - just weapons of last resort.

4. While a L or M wound might not impress a shadowrunner much, it can certainly be enough to make your average mugger think twice.

5. A 9M pistol (which is, practically speaking, an 11M pistol unless you for some reason don't feel like spending 15 a bullet for EX-EX) is extremely deadly, and more than enough to drop even an armored runner in one shot. I really don't think more power is necessary - especially when you can easily do 12S damage with a 3 round EX-EX burst from a compensated SMG, if your Ares Predator isn't enough.

I see no problem with raising hold-out damage to 4M and light pistols to 6M.
As for a 9M pistol not being dangerous enough, meh. Against an unarmored target, they're unlikely to soak anything. And realistically, a random hit (1 success) doesn't usually kill someone. Not right away, anyway. (but dying later is a whole different set of rules)
I would strongly advise you leave heavy pistols alone, but beefing up the light pistols and hold-outs would probably be fine.

MITJA3000+ :

I'd say that you need to talk to your GM about a house rule.

I recall reading of a real-life situation in which a police officer shot a perpetrator *in the face* at *very* close range--the cop and the perp were so close together that they probably could have picked each other's pockets, and the officer swore that he saw the muzzle flashes from his weapon reflected in the surface of the other man's eyeballs.

(And, as far as I know, the perp was *not* under the influence of drugs that decrease the user's sensitivity to pain, such as crack cocaine, PCP or crystal meth. He was simply highly adrenalized because of the situation he was in--the so-called "fight or flight" response.)

The officer in question was using the "old standby" for undercover cops; a snubnosed .38 Special revolver. Such a weapon typically holds either 5 or 6 shots, depending upon the manufacturer, and has a barrel length of between 2 and 3 inches.

The perp in question not only *survived*, but he was *sitting up and talking* by the time the ambulance arrived a few minutes after the shooting.

All that notwithstanding--the mechanics of gunshot wounds, especially the physics involved, can confound even experts in such matters--one thing is pretty much certain:

Regardless of what sort of weapon is used, or how heavily armored your target is, there's always the possibility that, in response to being shot in the face, the victim's head might be thrown backwards (the so-called "whiplash effect") with sufficient force to break his/her neck.

Believe it or not, there are face masks for police and military personnel that are designed to withstand the impact of most common handgun, SMG, and shotgun rounds at very close range; the only vulnerable area is the eyes. Picture a hockey goalie's mask with an extra-thick faceplate, and you'll have a rough idea of what it looks like. However, it's only good against *frontal* attacks--there is no protection for the sides and rear of the head. Worn in conjunction with the current SOTA bullet-resistant helmets (especially the current military ones), it wouldn't be especially comfortable, especially in hot or humid weather, but it would render the wearer all but invulnerable to head shots, except those from high-powered rifles. (Unless, of course, the shooter was using Armor-Piercing (AP) ammunition, or was a good enough shot to go for the openings in the faceplate directly opposite the wearer's eyes.)

Besides, there are weapons available right now that fall well into the "Holdout" category in Shadowrun terms, but still pack quite a wallop.

For example, there are two-shot derringers chambered for the .410 shotgun shell and/or the .45-70 U.S. Government rifle cartridge, as well as for more typical handgun cartridges such as the .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, and .45 ACP.

In addition, there are a number of semiautomatic pistols small enough to fit in a trouser pocket (although, with some of them, it might be a little uncomfortable) chambered for cartridges such as the 9mm Luger and .45 ACP.

There's even a real-life counterpart to the Eichiro Hatamoto II holdout; however, it's available only to law-enforcement personnel. It's a single-shot pistol, roughly the same size as a small semiautomatic pistol (think Walther PPK), but chambered for the 12-gauge, 3" magnum shotgun shell--a 12-gauge 3-inch Magnum buckshot shell holds 15 pellets of Number 4 Buckshot (0.24"-diameter/24-caliber round balls, made of lead or steel).

A 12-gauge shotshell, Magnum or not, fired at a range of 6 feet or less, would *definitely* ruin the day of anyone unlucky enough to be on the receiving end, regardless of where he/she was struck, or by how many pellets; however, it would also have a pretty nasty recoil impulse, I expect, so there might be in-game recoil penalties.

Just a few thoughts, mind you.

--Foreigner

I also don't really see a problem with hold-outs. Use hollow-points or Ex-Ex to up power/damage and a smart-link to reduce TGT#, called shot, stage it up, ...

Granted, you can do all of these things with a HP too, but the hold-out can get rediculously high concealability. Makes for a good back-up in infiltrator weapon.

It's the light pistols that suck.

the thing with holdouts is, any weapon designer with a lick of sense will build holdouts around as big a round as possible. i mean, you only get one or two shots--you need to make them count. i'd give most holdouts at least a 9M damage code. personally, i'm in favor of an M damage minimum for all firearms, except maybe those built around a few very rare, very low-power rounds.

Not even a very big round will necessarily make a holdout handgun a powerhouse. A .44 Special out of a 3" barreled Derringer might manage, what, 700fps out of a 200gr bullet? Of course it's still worth way more than 4L, but it doesn't hold a candle to a .45 ACP out of a large frame pistol. Something like 6M or 7M would be fine for a holdout.

(This is assuming you go by 9M being representative of a .45 ACP out of a 5" barrel, with 9x19mm handguns hovering around 7M. If you're in favor of all-around increase in the Damage Codes, that's a different matter.)

aren't there holdouts built around rifle rounds, and similar craziness?

Sure, such as the .45-70/.410 Derringers Foreigner mentioned. But you probably have to use seriously downloaded cartridges with those, so they won't get anywhere near the ballistics you'd get with similar rounds even in a 5" barreled revolver. If someone's got some loading and MV data on common Derringer setups, I'm interested.

In my game we fixed the "I shot him in the head and he laughed at me" problem by moving to a hit location system and staging damage up 1 from gunshot wounds to an unarmored location, and an additional 1 if you get shot in the head. So a pred to the head is a base Deadly wound. It adds some complexity, as you have to think about hit locations and cover, but goes pretty fast, it also makes the sniper happy when he can head shot the Bad Guy and get a nice red mist.
It does make combat more deadly, however, and we already lost a character to a lucky smg burst to the cranium. If you decided to do it that way, I also added some low cost helmet and kevlar hood options.

Lawndart

Hold-outs beg for capsule rounds and chemicals.

Amen.

laughing off a derringer? only if the range is measured in feet, not inches.

Yeah, I think that armor coverage locations, at least for the purpose of things like headshots, would be a nice thing to add to SR; a bit nicer than the cannon blanket called shot rule to either magically bypass armor OR raise damage code one level.

It would add a degree of complexity. CP2020 does it, and just keeping track of what goes where becomes a bit of a chore fairly quickly. I guess for those people who want more realism, it makes sense. For quick game play, avoid it.

Unfortunately, allowing for specific armored areas also means other parts of the rules need to be rewritten as well. The whole armor/damage thing is made to be fairly generic. I don't envy the problems you'll find while trying to change it over.

It's not that impracticable if thought is put into the construction of new rules governing hit locations. There is plenty of shit right now that is comically and unnecessarily complicated that can also be done away with to make the game play better. It does, however, require quite a bit of time and thought to be put into designing playable and realistic rules. There are many, many threads you can search for if you feel like giving it a go.

this is a little tangent, but
I have a little bit of a medical background, and i came up with a system for figuring out if something would be L M S D on the damage code.

L - Abrasion, Incision, Puncture, or bruising: not affecting any internal organs, of a relatively small size. mostly affecting the skin, little or no damage to underlying tissue.

M - Laceration, Abrasion, Incision, Puncture, or bruising: minimal if any affect to internal organs. localised damage to non-vital deep tissue. may also include L code damage over a larger area of the body.

S - Laceration, Abrasion, Incision, Puncture: affecting deep tissue, bone, internal organs, and structures. with in a localised area. May also be M code damage over large area of body.
Amputation: affecting far extremities.

D - Laceration, Abrasion, Puncture, Amputation: affecting vital organs, and structures. Sever distress to large portions of the body.

OK... that all being said.
i've seen bullets that stoped under the skin. To the best of my knowledge these were fired from a small snub type hand gun. They were smaller than an 38, but bigger than a 22.

Judging from the severity of a +1 to a normal TN, I would drop your description of L, move your description of M to L, S to M, D to S, and add a description for D that would be more likely to cause a normal person death in twenty-seven seconds.

~J

Mmm...
Laceration, Abrasion, Puncture, Amputation: affecting vital organs, and structures. Sever distress to large portions of the body.

that will kill most people in a few seconds. or knock you out from pain or shock, and then you will die of complications very quickly there after.

amputation of the head is not to be taken lightly

and as for the L code.
i like it.

The problem is the 27 seconds bit. You'd need to either directly disable the CNS, or to punch a hole in the heart or one of the major arteries between it and the brain. The abdominal aorta or the major blood vessels between the heart and the lungs just might do it, but, as you know, if the bullet goes through just about anything else your life expectancy is much greater than 30 seconds.

yes. very true. the most common result of a lethal wound is shock induced coma. in which you die(from complications, in due time). If you look at the rules they pretty much follow this modle too.

Generally, shock lasts a little longer than 27 seconds.

You might be able to bleed out in 30 seconds if you blow out both femoral arteries and they don't constrict themselves. Massiave trauma to the liver + spleen might kill you that fast too.