simple enough question.
what do vampires get out of essence draining. Why do they do it?
i've read the critters' vampire description, and the powers. mabe i'm just missing it.
Full Version: vampires and essance drain
They get lunch.
Oh, and added Essence. Which, for vampires, means getting an extra point (or two. Or three. Et cetera) for their Enhanced Physical Attributes.
Oh, and added Essence. Which, for vampires, means getting an extra point (or two. Or three. Et cetera) for their Enhanced Physical Attributes.
Vampires lose a point of essence every month. If they go too long without feeding they die to essence loss. Also, many of their powers depend on their essence level, meaning they are strongest when they are well fed.
A max of +12 on all physical stats, so an average of 15. On a theatrical note vampires run faster than meta humans (at x5) so with Quickness in double digits you can use all the usual movie tricks and hit&run tactics for suspense.
They're WAY too fucking powerful.
SR vampires have always been OMFG-powerful.
Wait, so do vampire's magically augmented stats get to ignore the modified limit of 1.5xbase? I don't see any reason why they should get to break that particular rule.
Wait, so do vampire's magically augmented stats get to ignore the modified limit of 1.5xbase? I don't see any reason why they should get to break that particular rule.
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| SR vampires have always been OMFG-powerful. Wait, so do vampire's magically augmented stats get to ignore the modified limit of 1.5xbase? I don't see any reason why they should get to break that particular rule. |
Enhanced Physical Attributes isn't magical, per se. It's magic-based, yes, but it isn't a spell or a spell-like. It's simply an innate ability.
The rules for those are kinda wishy-washy. I've never seen it stated that vampires couldn't hit 18-21 with EPA.
Tanka, I'm not disagreeing with you, I agree that it does not explicitly say one way or the other.
However, I'm going to point to pg 62: "....augmented by cyberware, bioware, adept powers, and magic." and later "The maximum augmented attribute value for each metatype is equal to 1.5 times this figure, rounded down..."
We also have, from the section of Critter powers, pg 286 "Some powers are are natural in nature, such as claws or armor. Others, such as concealment or engulf, are magical."
Nothing concretely saying that essense drain (and the accompanying attribute boost) are magical, exactly, or that the augmented limit applies to this critter power, but to me it seems that this power is not natural, it is somehow magic, and it is restricted by the augmented maximum.
I don't have a quote that specifically says it does, and no one else has one that specifically says it doesn't (to my knowledge), so I'm going to rule that the augmented maximum applies. I don't think it's quote worth of errata, but I'd like to see it show up in a FAQ, one way or the other.
However, I'm going to point to pg 62: "....augmented by cyberware, bioware, adept powers, and magic." and later "The maximum augmented attribute value for each metatype is equal to 1.5 times this figure, rounded down..."
We also have, from the section of Critter powers, pg 286 "Some powers are are natural in nature, such as claws or armor. Others, such as concealment or engulf, are magical."
Nothing concretely saying that essense drain (and the accompanying attribute boost) are magical, exactly, or that the augmented limit applies to this critter power, but to me it seems that this power is not natural, it is somehow magic, and it is restricted by the augmented maximum.
I don't have a quote that specifically says it does, and no one else has one that specifically says it doesn't (to my knowledge), so I'm going to rule that the augmented maximum applies. I don't think it's quote worth of errata, but I'd like to see it show up in a FAQ, one way or the other.
| QUOTE (emo samurai @ Feb 13 2006, 01:12 PM) |
| They're WAY too fucking powerful. |
That's why Blade is such a fucking badass.
Also it's why Martin de Vries' Force 4 Essence Focus makes him even more hardcore than Blade. His maximum Quickness is 26, Strength is 24. Fully charged, he could beat up Quicksilver.
Moon-Hawk: Fair points, all around. I think EPA and vampires in general were simply carried over from 2nd Ed and not one consideration to the rule-breaking that EPA is.
Also, I'm not finding the p. 62 quote. SR3 core, right? I'm aware that the max includes Bio/Magic, but I was under the impression that Cyber surpassed the limitation (if need be).
Also, I'm not finding the p. 62 quote. SR3 core, right? I'm aware that the max includes Bio/Magic, but I was under the impression that Cyber surpassed the limitation (if need be).
Moon-hawk - I would question whether a vampire is still considered a member of the original metatype or should be considered a new species.
Tanka: No, my quotes are crap. SR4. I got confused which room I was in and I looked at the wrong book. *puts on b00b hat* I would happily look up and give relevent quotes for the correct book, but I only have that one in dead tree format and, sadly, not with me.
Nezumi: Good point about vampires being considered a new species. I can see strong arguments either way. They're definitely no longer human, but their powers, impressive as they may be, still have to function through what was originally a human "chassis".
Okay, so my above post is mostly crap, so I'm not so sure anymore. Maybe their stats really can get that insanely high.
Sorry to clutter the discussion with off-edition quotes. I'm going to go sit in my dumbass corner and think of something useful to add.
Nezumi: Good point about vampires being considered a new species. I can see strong arguments either way. They're definitely no longer human, but their powers, impressive as they may be, still have to function through what was originally a human "chassis".
Okay, so my above post is mostly crap, so I'm not so sure anymore. Maybe their stats really can get that insanely high.
Sorry to clutter the discussion with off-edition quotes. I'm going to go sit in my dumbass corner and think of something useful to add.
It's not described in SR3, but in the previous editions vampires are listed taxonomically as a distinct species separate from (meta)humanity.
Vampires are Sanguisuga europa
Nosferatu are Sanguisuga europa caecus
Banshees are Noxplorator letalis
... And so on.
HMHVV is just that hardcore a virus. It doesn't just turn you into a beast, it kicks you out of the human Genus.
Vampires are Sanguisuga europa
Nosferatu are Sanguisuga europa caecus
Banshees are Noxplorator letalis
... And so on.
HMHVV is just that hardcore a virus. It doesn't just turn you into a beast, it kicks you out of the human Genus.
Here one from cannon fiction, vampires have a higher density that metahumans, so its hard for them to swim BUT they have a different sonic frequency for their soft tissue. One wealthy vamp had a sonic security device rigged in his abode, which of course was set to meta human. So inspired you should of seen the face of my players 
Humor me, what is the 'sonic frequency for soft flesh'? I've heard of the resonating frequency for a chicken's skull and the ultra-low frequency sounds that cause an upset stomach, but not the frequency of soft flesh.
They have less buoyancy, but I don't recall it ever being because they are more dense.
Related topic: The critters book says that vampires go into dormancy when cut off from oxygen. How long do you think this would take? If I 'shrink-wrapped' a [meta-]human or put them underwater, they'd flail around for a minute or two before going unconscious and dying. Is it the same for vampires, or do they go dormant instantly? Does the vamp have to be completely submerged, or would dunking his head do? If his legs go into the water, do they go to sleep?
(Pictures freshly-made [stupid] vamp jumping into the pool for a midnight swim, and immediately sinking to the bottom.
)
(Pictures freshly-made [stupid] vamp jumping into the pool for a midnight swim, and immediately sinking to the bottom.
)
I'd imagine they'd have to be without oxygen for what's standard for their Body attribute (including EPA, my guess). It takes a while, but if you happen to be able to sink one (tying lead weights with monowire?) and keep it down there long enough, it'll stay down until retrieved.
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| They have less buoyancy, but I don't recall it ever being because they are more dense. |
If they have less buoyancy then they must be more dense.
Buoyancy is a function of density in the real world. I guess it could be a function of magic but /why/.
Edward
| QUOTE (Edward) | ||
If they have less buoyancy then they must be more dense. Buoyancy is a function of density in the real world. I guess it could be a function of magic but /why/. Edward |
Since when did real world physics have anything to do with Shadowrun?
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| They're WAY too fucking powerful. |
Which is what I always loved about them. Except when the GM threw one at a group I was in of course.
When the sammy has Delta Wired-3, the decker can seemingly crash an AA corp without much difficulty, the magicians have initiated six or seven times and the rigger takes a Panzer down to the local store for some shopping it's nice to be able to throw one of these guys against them. Keeps them on their toes and aware of the fact that they're not the top pf the food chain, making them have to really work to beat them.
My question is what does a vampire need to do to suck essence out of a PC? Ha ha, pwned, cry Mr. Mage!
A few minutes alone, some chains, ropes, or silk scarves, and an attractive figure or a bullwhip.
According to critters, permenant essence drain requires an unspecified number of unintrupted minutes, for the victim to be unable or unwilling to resist, and for there to be a strong emotional connection such as lust or hatred which is most easily established by sex or torture. This, I suppose, is why most female vampires are dominatrices.
It won't happen in combat but it could happen if the magician in question is captured or hires the wrong joytoy. The nasty thing is that that addiction rules apply to recieving essence drain. Being drained causes unimaginable pleasure and the magician will be psycologically compelled seek out that pleasure after the first time.
According to critters, permenant essence drain requires an unspecified number of unintrupted minutes, for the victim to be unable or unwilling to resist, and for there to be a strong emotional connection such as lust or hatred which is most easily established by sex or torture. This, I suppose, is why most female vampires are dominatrices.
It won't happen in combat but it could happen if the magician in question is captured or hires the wrong joytoy. The nasty thing is that that addiction rules apply to recieving essence drain. Being drained causes unimaginable pleasure and the magician will be psycologically compelled seek out that pleasure after the first time.
| QUOTE (FlakJacket) | ||
Which is what I always loved about them. Except when the GM threw one at a group I was in of course. When the sammy has Delta Wired-3, the decker can seemingly crash an AA corp without much difficulty, the magicians have initiated six or seven times and the rigger takes a Panzer down to the local store for some shopping it's nice to be able to throw one of these guys against them. Keeps them on their toes and aware of the fact that they're not the top pf the food chain, making them have to really work to beat them. |
Aside from the Initiation thing (It's not like hitting Grades 6-7 makes you God or anything) I'm dumbfuzzled at such a caricature.
Of course, if you have an implanted commlink (SR4) or simrig, you could just run a BTL moodchip that creates calmness...
| QUOTE (Edward) | ||
If they have less buoyancy then they must be more dense. Buoyancy is a function of density in the real world. I guess it could be a function of magic but /why/. Edward |
Just because the creature is more dense doesn't mean any of the tissues are. A human has air pockets in the lungs that bring the overall density of the body down below that of water (while most tissue sinks in water). A creature that didn't inflate lungs (for example: because it doesn't need to breathe) but had the same tissue density of a normal human would sink.
-Frank
| QUOTE (nick012000) |
| Of course, if you have an implanted commlink (SR4) or simrig, you could just run a BTL moodchip that creates calmness... |
Assuming you know you're about to be drained by a vampire and knew ahead of time that you would be drained of a vampire.
In which case, +1 Paranoia point to you!
It's also worth pointing out, you only very rarely see fat vampires. That may be a testimony to the effectiveness of liquid diets. But the end result is that someone who has less fat than muscle or bone (vampire) will be more 'dense' than someone who's a tub of lard.
| QUOTE (FlakJacket) | ||
Which is what I always loved about them. Except when the GM threw one at a group I was in of course. When the sammy has Delta Wired-3, the decker can seemingly crash an AA corp without much difficulty, the magicians have initiated six or seven times and the rigger takes a Panzer down to the local store for some shopping it's nice to be able to throw one of these guys against them. Keeps them on their toes and aware of the fact that they're not the top pf the food chain, making them have to really work to beat them. |
usually a physad with a weapon focus makes very short work of a vampire. Even when you trick those babies out.
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| Related topic: The critters book says that vampires go into dormancy when cut off from oxygen. How long do you think this would take? If I 'shrink-wrapped' a [meta-]human or put them underwater, they'd flail around for a minute or two before going unconscious and dying. Is it the same for vampires, or do they go dormant instantly? Does the vamp have to be completely submerged, or would dunking his head do? If his legs go into the water, do they go to sleep? (Pictures freshly-made [stupid] vamp jumping into the pool for a midnight swim, and immediately sinking to the bottom. ) |
If they go into dormancy, do they still lose essence each month or are they in some kind of permanent suspended state? 6 months to a year to kill one of these beasties is kinda cool.
It's one of those awkward situations where the rules don't say either way, but I'd more more inclined to treat it like Suspended State and not count essence loss.
| QUOTE (Nyxll) | ||
If they go into dormancy, do they still lose essence each month or are they in some kind of permanent suspended state? 6 months to a year to kill one of these beasties is kinda cool. |
It's never really stated, which strikes me as odd. I'd assume they can't be killed that way, but that's just me.
I'll use Underworld as an example (which is, admittedly, more based on WoD than SR): They can live for at least two millenia in dormancy without dying from lack of Essence. Granted, those are the super powerful ones, but still.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| A few minutes alone, some chains, ropes, or silk scarves, and an attractive figure or a bullwhip. According to critters, permenant essence drain requires an unspecified number of unintrupted minutes, for the victim to be unable or unwilling to resist, and for there to be a strong emotional connection such as lust or hatred which is most easily established by sex or torture. This, I suppose, is why most female vampires are dominatrices. It won't happen in combat but it could happen if the magician in question is captured or hires the wrong joytoy. The nasty thing is that that addiction rules apply to recieving essence drain. Being drained causes unimaginable pleasure and the magician will be psycologically compelled seek out that pleasure after the first time. |
Hmm, I wish there were some explicitly-written rules so that you could be draining the PCs left and right and not have them complain about how their character is totally immne to fear and passion.
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| Humor me, what is the 'sonic frequency for soft flesh'? I've heard of the resonating frequency for a chicken's skull and the ultra-low frequency sounds that cause an upset stomach, but not the frequency of soft flesh. |
Whatever the sonic rifle works on? There's a whole load of sub sonic frequencies that mess with human beings, so am told. Some affect bones some the grey matter that leads to a state of euphoria....
For the quote in the sig board formate, ask AH because i can not remember where i saw it.
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) | ||
Hmm, I wish there were some explicitly-written rules so that you could be draining the PCs left and right and not have them complain about how their character is totally immne to fear and passion. |
Control Emotion spells are cheap but they get the job done in a pinch, along with control actions to remove those pesky Zen BTLs.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) | ||||
Control Emotion spells are cheap but they get the job done in a pinch, along with control actions to remove those pesky Zen BTLs. |
That's brilliant. There's a good use for Control Emotion after all. And if the Control Emotion spell succeeds, there'd be no room for whining about how "my character isn't afraid, really!", since it would be based strictly on the rules as written. You fail your resistance test, you lose a point of essence in a minute, bucko.
Thanks, Hyz!
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) | ||||||
That's brilliant. There's a good use for Control Emotion after all. And if the Control Emotion spell succeeds, there'd be no room for whining about how "my character isn't afraid, really!", since it would be based strictly on the rules as written. You fail your resistance test, you lose a point of essence in a minute, bucko. Thanks, Hyz! |
Are we to expect vampiric cloned ninjas that play XTREME guitar riffs now?
| QUOTE (Pendaric) | ||
Whatever the sonic rifle works on? |
Infrasonics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrasound
I don't know that a slight change in density would allow for a significant difference in 'immunity'. If you have viscerae, you're vulnerable. Resonance is based in part on density, but I don't think it plays a large enough role for a vamp to think he's completely immune to it. But it is a neat idea.
"Got some advice for you, you undead bastard: If you're so vulnerable to a lack of oxygen, don't sleep in a friggin' coffin!"
(Pulls lever on dumptruck.)
(Pulls lever on dumptruck.)
| QUOTE (Dog) |
| "Got some advice for you, you undead bastard: If you're so vulnerable to a lack of oxygen, don't sleep in a friggin' coffin!" (Pulls lever on dumptruck.) |
For a second there, I thought you put "pulls lever on dumpshock".
I was very confused for that second.
| QUOTE (tanka) | ||
For a second there, I thought you put "pulls lever on dumpshock". I was very confused for that second. |
QFT.
Sorry to hijack, but: QFT?
| QUOTE (Dog) |
| Sorry to hijack, but: QFT? |
Quoted For Truth.
Can also be put as "QFE" for "Quoted For Emphasis".
I never really got why the vulnerability to oxygen was even counted as a vulnerability. First of all, it takes a lot longer for a vampire to go into torpor than it takes for a human to die from a suffocation. Second, VAMPIRES DON'T DIE FROM SUFFOCATION!!!
| QUOTE (emo samurai @ Feb 16 2006, 12:37 PM) |
| I never really got why the vulnerability to oxygen was even counted as a vulnerability. First of all, it takes a lot longer for a vampire to go into torpor than it takes for a human to die from a suffocation. Second, VAMPIRES DON'T DIE FROM SUFFOCATION!!! |
Never said they did, simply that they go into dormancy.
One of the questions just happend to be "can a vampire die from Essence Loss while in dormancy?"
Nobody is quite sure. Though, the general consensus is "no."
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| I don't know that a slight change in density would allow for a significant difference in 'immunity'. If you have viscerae, you're vulnerable. Resonance is based in part on density, but I don't think it plays a large enough role for a vamp to think he's completely immune to it. But it is a neat idea. |
Nice link, am presuming that the sonic rifle is subsonic, as some of my players and I have an engineering background, so discussed the ultra sonic option to impossibility. Well bar microwaving the target hmmmm fond memories of CP2020
Back to vampires, no other critter has such latitude on power level. Raving monster (reapers in Blade 2) to urbane full magician diabolical master mind (Ordo maximus, Dracula, Akasha and on and on)
With altering intelligence, essence, if Awakened, magical paradigm, number of vampiric pawns etc you can have any variation of the traditional villain of vampirism. I exclude dragons from the top slot because well, their dragons and their physical power is hard to get away from.
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| They're WAY too fucking powerful. |
In SR3 they are physically way over the top. In SR4 they have been knocked back substantially, at least the generic vampires have been. Regeneration was toned down from a godlike property to merely extremely useful. Also the SR3 version of enhanced physical stats was insane. With that essense focus they could spar bareknuckled with dragons. It was an all the time application to all physical attributes. In SR4 it became a time limited boost that drains essense, and only applies to one physical attribute at a time.
How Nosteratu get treated in SR4 will be interesting. In SR3 Nosteratu were more sidekicks to real vampires.
| QUOTE (blakkie) | ||
In SR3 they are physically way over the top. In SR4 they have been knocked back substantially, at least the generic vampires have been. Regeneration was toned down from a godlike property to merely extremely useful. Also the SR3 version of enhanced physical stats was insane. With that essense focus they could spar bareknuckled with dragons. It was an all the time application to all physical attributes. In SR4 it became a time limited boost that drains essense, and only applies to one physical attribute at a time. How Nosteratu get treated in SR4 will be interesting. In SR3 Nosteratu were more sidekicks to real vampires. |
In my understand, Nosferatu were the original vampires, or maybe just the masterminds behind all the plots. Maybe not physically powerful, but they sure could lead.
Vampire physical stats are nasty but the nastiest potential danger comes specificly from the regeneration power and is open to all sentient critters with the power along with a potential to learn spellcasting.
Blood magic.
Regeneration doesn't heal drain at the prodigious rate that it heals everything else. Therefore, critters with regeneration naturally make better adept tanks than magicians. But wait, self inflicted knife wound do heal completely in three seconds and you can reduce drain with self inflicted knife wounds using a nice little metamagic.
When you find yourself splattered with the arterial blood of a vampire who just sliced his own throat open for no apparent reason there is little that you can do but put your head between you legs and kiss your butt goodbye.
The great thing is that this is available to Shapeshifter NPCs, too. Next time you see a rodent of unusual size chewing on its own tail, run.
Blood magic.
Regeneration doesn't heal drain at the prodigious rate that it heals everything else. Therefore, critters with regeneration naturally make better adept tanks than magicians. But wait, self inflicted knife wound do heal completely in three seconds and you can reduce drain with self inflicted knife wounds using a nice little metamagic.
When you find yourself splattered with the arterial blood of a vampire who just sliced his own throat open for no apparent reason there is little that you can do but put your head between you legs and kiss your butt goodbye.
The great thing is that this is available to Shapeshifter NPCs, too. Next time you see a rodent of unusual size chewing on its own tail, run.
Oh god... I'd never thought about that.
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