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weblife
Overall I really like SR4.

But I have found a few spots where we've had to make some local houserules to make it, uh, make sense.

First off, the best system a Hacker can buy at creation is the cheap little 100 nuyen one.

Then you skip on over to the Hardware Upgrades on p. 240 and buy the biggest upgrade your creation availability allows. Congratulations, you now have a system thats way cheaper than the listed price.

Once game begins, order up the parts for that 6 response, 6 signal commlink, remember to cut the price in half as you only order the parts. Thats 5500 nuyen there.

Now you will need atleast the tools or access to them, but with the correct contact you can probably rent them at a reasonble price, as it will only take you 2-3 days to put your new 6/6 commlink together. Threshold is 12 on a Hardware+Logic Extended test.

Keep in mind the best off the rack commlink is response 4, signal 5? at 8000 nuyen, then the glaring weakness of the system is appearent.

Now hurry out at use it before your GM catches on. biggrin.gif

(We "fixed" this imbalance by doubling the upgrade and parts costs.)

The next issue is program copying and may be less a problem, but nevertheless:

Once a hacker "hacks" a program he makes a copy. As has been appearent in other threads on this forum, many took this for meaning unlimited copies, which has the only conclusion that all hackers in a party has any program they have ever come across running on all their commlinks, agents or drones as makes the most benefit to them. I.e. once they get that Pilot 6, expect them to install it in all their drones and then upgrade hardware as money allows.

We "solved" this issue, or limited it, by taking the wording of the rule literally. You make a copy, singular, one copy, but it will be a registered copy that will be allowed Response on foreign nodes and not be recognized as a duplicate and starved of Response.

So, now you need to spend 6-8 hours making each copy you need.

Without this limiter, go nut with your programs. Share with your party and coordinate purchases of upgrades to stretch your budgets. - With this limiter, do this anyway, but it will take you longer and stop some silly situations. (Like the Agent Smith syndrome).

Lastly, I've discovered that a Troll makes an exellent Hacker. Dump it all in Willpower and Body, some Agility and STR as you like, pump a closecombat skill and a gunskill and grab the skillgroup containing Hacking. Skimp on Logic, Intuition and Charisma. Once you log on, none of your attributes matter anyway. - Only Willpower. - The rest are programs+Hacking or another few skills.

Basically it allows the cybersammie to have decent hacker skills for bruteforce hacking cameras and surveillance and force entry, and not sacrifice too much combat prowess.

If this is inteded I do not know. But beware the pimply hacker kid, he may have some serious strength and agility latent. nyahnyah.gif
Ranneko
One of the suggested methods of fixing up the upgrade issues is to treat upgrading a commlink like increasing skills and stats.

To get from Response 4 to Response 6, you need to buy Response 5 & Response 6 chips, and plug them in.
mintcar
I think the things you mention are mostly intended. They do provide lots of exploit opportunities if not kept in check though. I think a samurai with decent hacking skill, good programs but lousy logic should be able to hack. But I also think that a GM should call for a logic+hacking check when something unexpected happens, because the programs only work for their inteded purpose. I also may require some recoding of programs once in a while, to stress the importance of programing skills.
Aku
QUOTE (mintcar)
I also may require some recoding of programs once in a while, to stress the importance of programing skills.


This is ok, if you rutinely allow multiple months of down time But as it is, i think it takes way too long to code most things FOR GAMEPLAY, threshhold for common use and hacking programs should be like, a week, not a month.
mintcar
Perhaps coding patches is faster than coding entire programs?
Aku
Perhaps, but i dont see any rules for upgrading software, so i dont think that theres anything that lets you code the difference between say a rating 4 attack, and a rating 5 attack
mintcar
I meant that I may require a programing test just to keep the programs up to date. As a measure to make programing skills invaluable. Without some really good contacts or a lot of money, you will have to learn how to write programs if you want to stay at the top of the game.
Aku
you could, i wouldnt require a threshhold of more than an hour (maybe a day) to do it though, and i'm not even sure if i'd let someone do it if it wasn't their own code.
Codethulhu
QUOTE (weblife)
(We "fixed" this imbalance by doubling the upgrade and parts costs.)

That was only for build-it-youself solutions. And keep in mind you will be using all downtime between the next 2-4 runs assembling the SOTA in commlink technology, using only circuitboards and a soldering iron. If you intend to quick-plug upgrades into a commlink, you will be buying seqential upgrades fo your commlink, just like attributes are bought up.

Beware, Weblife. The GM is always watching wink.gif
TinkerGnome
I'm not sure these things are "exploits" per se. You could also look at it as the PC being rewarded for investing in Software skills and Logic skills, neither of which is usable for much else when it comes to hacking and rigging.

There are some downsides to having hacked programs on all of your drones, etc., though. What if you get a drone blown up on a run, but the Star/whoever salvages the program on it. You lose another drone with that program and they can see they're cracked in exactly the same way... Could be trouble.
September
I hate how long it takes to program Pilot. Sure, playing a AI-specialty decker who buffs up everyone's commlinks and has three agents is fun, but the best Pilot you can get at start is 4. And the interval is THREE MONTHS. That's ludicrous, at least in terms of fun gameplay. By the time I finish, even with maxed logic and a Pilot specialty, my program will be behind SOTA.
weblife
Ack, my identity has been hacked. Must get a new SIN fast... biggrin.gif

Anyway, you describe the same effect as I do. Except your version of saying it costs an additional 250 nuyen. nyahnyah.gif

But the point remains, the issues we found are up for all to see and adapt their own games around. I'm pretty satisfied with our own solutions.
Lagomorph
I don't think your troll hacker described would even be able to attempt putting together it's own commlink with out glitching. So you could do one or the other "exploit" but it'd be a bit silly to try both.
Endgame50
QUOTE (weblife)
Once game begins, order up the parts for that 6 response, 6 signal commlink, remember to cut the price in half as you only order the parts. Thats 5500 nuyen there.

Keep in mind the best off the rack commlink is response 4, signal 5? at 8000 nuyen, then the glaring weakness of the system is appearent.

I don't see a problem with this, really. It's different these days, since a lot of mass produced computers are pretty cheap... but there was a time when it was a lot cheaper to build your own computer from components.

It would have been like buying a top of the line Gateway (3000+) which still isn't as good as something you could build yourself, or dropping 1k on parts to make a better system yourself (in this case, the analogy would be upgrading your crappy bottom end gateway you bought a few years ago). You're putting in the time and labor, you're gathering the parts, you take care of the maintainance--but you have a slick system for alot less money.

Going back to commlinks, if you buy the top of the line commlink and upgrade, you end up with the spare radio (signal) and response chips at whatever ratings they're at and not alot to do with them. That's just a waste. If you're going to toss out both parts anyway, since all you need is the case and the basic architecture, it actually doesn't make sense to buy the top end model.
Shrike30
The main reason for buying the top-end model would be if your character wasn't technically adept enough to build his own. It's the same reason people buy top-end models today... sure, they may have a friend who could whip it together for them, but sometimes you just want it all in the same package, without oddball incompatabilities, with a company logo slapped on the side, and a big ol' service-and-parts warranty for the next 3 years.

And yeah, sometimes you just need the hardware *now*, not a week from now.
CONAN9845
QUOTE (Shrike30)
The main reason for buying the top-end model would be if your character wasn't technically adept enough to build his own.  It's the same reason people buy top-end models today... sure, they may have a friend who could whip it together for them, but sometimes you just want it all in the same package, without oddball incompatabilities, with a company logo slapped on the side, and a big ol' service-and-parts warranty for the next 3 years.

And yeah, sometimes you just need the hardware *now*, not a week from now.

The problem is that none of that is represented in SR. There are NO reasons not to just buy the lowest end commlink, and then stuff it with 5/5 upgrades, no matter what type of character you are. No tests of any kind are required, so you don't have to worry about glitching, or not having the Hardware skill in the first place.
TonkaTuff
Well, there're at least two very good reasons to stop you from doing that. The first would be logical adherence to your character concept. That should be fairly self-explainatory. Though if your "character" is just stats on a sheet for determining dice parameters - well, more power to you, I guess. The other roadblock would be your GM - they get final say as to what the chars in their game are and aren't allowed to buy, the chargen rules be damned. If they decide your character can't have the souped-up 'link b/c their skills say they barely know how to turn one on and they don't have a slavishly-devoted techie contact who would have built it for them - them's the breaks.
Cain
That doesn't prevent munchkin players from coming up with plausible excuses. For example, I had a character who actually *did* steal a good cyberdeck off someone in game, giving her a deck that was way beyond her computer skill. Someone might use that as part of a character background, saying that they found, stole, or were given a high-end home-built commlink .
hobgoblin
then just slugg them with the idea that items "bought" in chargen isnt something they picked up from some store shelf 5 min ago. its stuff they have somhow been able to hang on to so far into life...
Johnnycache
QUOTE (CONAN9845)
QUOTE (Shrike30)
The main reason for buying the top-end model would be if your character wasn't technically adept enough to build his own.  It's the same reason people buy top-end models today... sure, they may have a friend who could whip it together for them, but sometimes you just want it all in the same package, without oddball incompatabilities, with a company logo slapped on the side, and a big ol' service-and-parts warranty for the next 3 years.

And yeah, sometimes you just need the hardware *now*, not a week from now.

The problem is that none of that is represented in SR. There are NO reasons not to just buy the lowest end commlink, and then stuff it with 5/5 upgrades, no matter what type of character you are. No tests of any kind are required, so you don't have to worry about glitching, or not having the Hardware skill in the first place.

There are tests. Their thresholds are right there on the same chart as the parts and upgrade costs.

As for the software thresholds, you can work on them during downtime and even individual off days.

What I miss are the old rules for collaborating on a program. . .
Darkness
QUOTE (Johnnycache)
What I miss are the old rules for collaborating on a program. . .

Isn't that what teamwork tests are for?
(SR4, p.59)
wink.gif
Johnnycache
QUOTE (Darkness @ Mar 2 2006, 07:38 AM)
QUOTE (Johnnycache @ Mar 2 2006, 12:54 PM)
What I miss are the old rules for collaborating on a program. . .

Isn't that what teamwork tests are for?
(SR4, p.59)
wink.gif

Ahm, no, not really - I mean actual collaboration, like one person works for a few hours or days on something, then the next character tags in, or two characters work on different parts of the same programming project during the same eight hours, reducing the total time it takes by working more then one shift in a day, not the difficulty or number of dice. I guess the teamwork rules COULD imply that as well, and a sleep regulator would be maybe imply it too, but it's not explicit. A system like that would be nice in sr 4 since nothing decreases the interval otherwise. I also think it's sort of messed up that the interval, meant to be the minmum time for a job, has also become the increment for the job. Say a programming job takes 3 months - no one will ever do it in 4, 5, 7, or 8 months, and since it isn't expressly stated that extra workers under the teamwork rule can completely relieve the main worker, a gm could even try to say it will take three guys working 8 hour shifts just as long as it will take one guy working alone.

Three people should work ALMOST three times as fast on something like a big programming job, but that won't happen in the SR4 rules until the task gets fairly hard.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 1 2006, 11:52 PM)
That doesn't prevent munchkin players from coming up with plausible excuses.  For example, I had a character who actually *did* steal a good cyberdeck off someone in game, giving her a deck that was way beyond her computer skill.  Someone might use that as part of a character background, saying that they found, stole, or were given a high-end home-built commlink .

In that case, you'd pay the extra premium for a pre-assembled comm. It doesn't matter if you stole it off of someone, you won it in a game show, or it just dropped out of heaven in your lap. You get exactly what you pay for; if you pay for an assembled commlink then you get an assembled commlink. If you pay for a pile of chips then you'd either better have the skill or the contacts to put those together for you, or else you're going to start play with a pile of chips and no Hardware skill to wire them together.

Alternatively, if I wanted to be evil I'd let the player have his spliced-together commlink, but I'd also include a few extras that he doesn't know about. After all, he didn't put the thing together, and he has no idea what's in it; he just knows he stole it from someone and is now using it for his own purposes. So he doesnt' know about the Lone Star beacon nestled in next to the memory chips, or the bomb waiting to destroy the secret prototype NeoNet processor as soon as it enters a rival corp's property. It's like the old Mysterious Cyberware flaw, also known as the "F*** with my character, Please!" flaw, all over again! biggrin.gif
TinkerGnome
The thresholds and rolls are for building your own components, which is even cheaper than buying custom pieces.

I understand the annoyance may people express for players throwing together a better than otherwise possible system for cheap, but in the end it's a very minor amount of money (< 6k at worst) in the grand scheme of things. If the player puts in the effort to have a reason for having them, why bother arguing?

I'm sure we'll see better rules for building and customizing comlinks in Unwired.
Eyeless Blond
So long as we don't see any more programs. The core rules are pushing the limits of usability as it is; if they pull a Matrix on us and double the list of programs we'll probably start seeing people complaining about hacking being too complicated again. What was there is well organized and works great, but another 22 programs will probably put people off hacking again.
Brahm
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
So long as we don't see any more programs. The core rules are pushing the limits of usability as it is; if they pull a Matrix on us and double the list of programs we'll probably start seeing people complaining about hacking being too complicated again. What was there is well organized and works great, but another 22 programs will probably put people off hacking again.

Hear! Hear!
TinkerGnome
I agree. New uses for old programs, on the other hand, would be welcome.

They're severely limited in adding new programs because of Technomancers, anyway. For a hacker, it's just buying a new program, but for the technomancer it's another big karma sink.
Cain
QUOTE
In that case, you'd pay the extra premium for a pre-assembled comm. It doesn't matter if you stole it off of someone, you won it in a game show, or it just dropped out of heaven in your lap. You get exactly what you pay for; if you pay for an assembled commlink then you get an assembled commlink. If you pay for a pile of chips then you'd either better have the skill or the contacts to put those together for you, or else you're going to start play with a pile of chips and no Hardware skill to wire them together.

Really? This just so happens to be my SR Missions character. So, just because she lacks a Hardware skill, some of her gear gets taken away from her when she's converted? When another character with a Hardware skill of 1 gets away with the same trick? I've got the game record sheets that prove she lifted the deck off someone, so she should be entitled to keep the equipment. Unfortunately, that means that anyone else with a similar story can do the same thing.

GM authority is fine and dandy, but we can't be arbitrary about it. If we allow one character to do it, we better have a good reason for not allowing another character from doing the exact same thing.

QUOTE
Alternatively, if I wanted to be evil I'd let the player have his spliced-together commlink, but I'd also include a few extras that he doesn't know about. After all, he didn't put the thing together, and he has no idea what's in it; he just knows he stole it from someone and is now using it for his own purposes. So he doesnt' know about the Lone Star beacon nestled in next to the memory chips, or the bomb waiting to destroy the secret prototype NeoNet processor as soon as it enters a rival corp's property. It's like the old Mysterious Cyberware flaw, also known as the "F*** with my character, Please!" flaw, all over again!

Again, why? If he stole it off a hotshot decker, there's no reason why the previous owner would have let those things into his gear. You might be able to fairly implement an enemy because he stole it off of someone; but what you describe is just being vindictive. If a player discovers a flaw in the rules, its best you discuss it with them and tell them that your house rules don't allow it; or you let it go and congratulate them on being clever. Screwing their character over because the player pulled off a clever trick is seriously unfair.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 2 2006, 11:09 AM)
Really?  This just so happens to be my SR Missions character.  So, just because she lacks a Hardware skill, some of her gear gets taken away from her when she's converted?  When another character with a Hardware skill of 1 gets away with the same trick?  I've got the game record sheets that prove she lifted the deck off someone, so she should be entitled to keep the equipment.  Unfortunately, that means that anyone else with a similar story can do the same thing. 

GM authority is fine and dandy, but we can't be arbitrary about it.  If we allow one character to do it, we better have a good reason for not allowing another character from doing the exact same thing.

The thing is, you can have the powerful deck/commlink at chargen if you like; you just have to pay the extra labor cost to have it assembled for you (the difference between the pre-fab commlink and the raw parts for a do-it-yourself job). Should I let a character have all of his equipment for free, just because he wrote in his background that he stole it off of someone? You can get free stuff in-game by stealing it, sure; noone's suggesting that your bank account mysteriously debits money every time you lift someone's wallet. But chargen's different. In chargen, you get exactly what you pay for; it doesn't matter what you put into your background about how you got it. That's how things stay fair.

The person with a hardware skill can get the discounts if they like, because that's pretty much the sole benefit of having the hardware skill. It's like how raising Logic gets you extra skill points: you paid for the skill, so you get the benefits. You don't pay for the skill, you don't get the benefits.
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