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Galmorez
Not sure if this topic has been created, or surfaced recently...

But, what changes in SR4 do you think are improvements over SR3? Of course, my first impulse is to sarcastically mention some of the deficiencies... But, I will be good and mention just stuff I like:

Elimination of dice pools. Call me crazy, but I like it. They were silly.

Streamlined combat. There is a lot less roll, counter roll mayhem then there used to be. This is arguably the cause of some problems, but hey.

Deadlier. Having played a lot of other cyberpunk genre games, the deadliness of the system is an improvement IMO.

Wireless. Argue away, but Shadowrun was slow catching on to the idea that the digital age will culminate in information overload, and hackers will be a new breed of hero and villain. I also find it very amusing the mistrust of wireless. That is exactly how people viewed the internet -- thinking their bank accounts could be hacked. Now, the matrix is everyday, and wireless is the thing for the Luddites to be afraid of... because we can hack their bank accounts. smile.gif

Edge. I really like this. It is the magic stat for the unawakened. It also suffers for the high-budget cyber character because the point balance means you can't have it all.

Augmented reality. It's a bit of a new thing, but it really helps keep away the SR3 problem of the Decker/Hacker and even Riggers off playing their own seperate game.

Magic is really powerful. Like streetsams are deadly, magic is too. In SR3 it seemed a lot more difficult for mages to be throwing around mana-balls and stuff that was as deadly. Previously, the mage threw out an uber attack spell, and the targets just had to stage down 1 damage level to survive. Now, they have to stage down a ton of damage boxes, or shrug off the spell -- both of which are a lot less likely. Spirits seem more dangerous too.

Damage tracks based on attributes. yay! Even great dragons had 10 boxes in SR3.

Well, that's a start...





nezumi
Hmm..

Loss of dice pools I thought was bad, personally. That and the change of the dice mechanic are the things that really lost me. Had they kept those, I'd be a convert, since they really did make some great changes.

Streamlined combat can be good. I haven't run them side by side to see if that streamlining has made it significantly less 'realistic', however, so I won't comment too much on that.

Deadlier is good. Wireless is good (IMO). I think it was implemented well.

Change in the prices to make cyberware affordable in game was GREAT. I love the new cyber prices. I also like that everything was built off of the same mechanic, so it's the same rules for decking, magic, etc. Those were the two big changes that had me really excited when I first heard about all this.

I don't like that magic got more deadly. Magic was always too strong in my games to begin with. Blech.

Edge I'm split on. Karma pool is a neat idea, but it got huge and silly. I knew too many characters with 20 or 30 KP. I sort of like the idea of KP being a bought statistic rather than something you automatically (and are forced) to collect. But since I don't like the new mechanic, it makes sense that I don't like how edge works precisely.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (nezumi)
I don't like that magic got more deadly.  Magic was always too strong in my games to begin with.  Blech.

A big second on magic.

Even in SR3 I thought it was somewhat unbalanced. Some spells like Mindprobe really could crock an adventure, particularly if legwork played a major role in the scenario. Astral searching would eliminate a good part of intrigue and mystery in cases of abduction or a "missing person". At least in SR3, a mundane had a bit more of a chance against combat spells due to the variable target number. Of course it also resulted in a different approach to Min-Maxing (particularly where Willpower was concerned).

In SR4 a mundane is basically going to take damage from combat spells no matter how many hits are rolled since Spell Force is tacked on to the net hits of the casting mage and there is no threshold to replace the variable target number. Drain from that Powerball 5 spell can also become much less a factor if the casting mage has focused concentration and uses a fetish. As I mentioned in another post, it seems far easier for a mage to protect him or herself from mundane attacks than it is for a mundane to ward off a combat spell (or any spell for that matter save maybe for some transformations) Yeah the mage may still take some stun but, as I discovered in the last session, One spell and a mundane is usually put down for the count.

Lagomorph
I should be ashamed to admit this, but I like the revision of the skill numbers, it always seemed lame that for somebody to be anybody in SR3 you needed 6 skill period. I like that a skill of 3 or 4 is supposed to be decent enough.

I very much like the integration of the hermetics and shamans into a templatized format so that any magic technique can be easily added in.

I think uncybered mundanes are also more feasable in this system, you don't have to be a cyber freak or master mojo slinger to play in SR4.
stevebugge
Generally I like the streamlining of the rules and the unification of the mechanics.

I like the magical tradition generation system, geek that I am I tried to figure out just how many possible combinations there could be, I came up with 2160, just 2 are locked up in Canon as of now.

I miss the Vehicle, Weapon, and Spell customization rules, but given time I suspect they will return.

Magic is still a little overpowered in my opinion.

Matrix is actually useable now, Huge benefit.

Holdout and Light Pistols are capable of doing damage, this is good.

The fact that you do not need to have a 4 in a skill to even attempt to try to use it, again good.

Task, Hacking, Combat, Astral pools gone. I liked the discretionary dice pools, so it would have been nice to keep them.

Realism is down, abstraction is up. I preferred the realism, though not so much so where I would give up the simplifications to keep the realism.

Captain Chaos is dead, long live Captain Chaos! (Sorry having Fastjack be the moderator doesn't work as well for me)
Lagomorph
Oh yeah, another part I like, speaking of abstraction, is the abstracted vehicle chase rules. I've always felt that chase combats should be abstracted, and it was kind of lame that they weren't in SR3.
TinkerGnome
I don't buy that magic is that much stronger in SR4. The combat mage sample character in SR3 could fling around force 6 serious manabolts (fetish limited, just change the spell list around) all day without every taking drain. The main difference in SR3 and SR4 is that in SR4, resisting attributes don't give exponential returns, but are flat.
mfb
i like the Matrix ruleset, with a few notable exceptions. i like the stat splits, and i like the concept of Edge while maintaining that it could use a few refinements. i like the fact that the writers can say "fuck", and i like the move towards including more fiction.
Ice Hammer
IMO, realism depends on the GM and the shadowrun world he creates. If the NPC's are fleshed out and act plausibally, and the action isn't over the top and cinematic, and if the action stays challenging, than I think a realistic setting can be built. I've run about 6 or 7 shadowrun 4 games so far, plus lots of Shadowrun 3 games, and I have found the Shadowrun 4 system a lot less complicated, faster paced, and a lot easier for me (the GM) to balance. I also love the fact that the target number remains the same at 5. That has helped me, especially since my players typically roll much better than me, and get A TON of fours on their rolls. After the target number went up, my NPC's started to live longer, and be much more of a threat to the PC's than before. That in itself has added more realism to my game, as the PC's shouldn't be mowing down my NPC's like they were from Shadowrun 3. My players have also taken a real liking to Shadowrun 4, so from my position, shadowrun 4 rocks as it works well wth my group.

So, altough I appreciate and love how Shadowrun 3 really established the shadowrun world, from the various geograpic locations, the underworld, the megacorps the policlubs, the culture, etc, and have given me tons of possibilities for story ideas, Shadowrun 4 has made running the shadows a lot more fun.
Clyde
Second the wireless/augmented reality. The hacker is an integral part of the team, finally!

My vote goes for the new dice mechanic - it's a lot less predictable than SR3. You have more upset rolls and uncertainty, and huge dice pools don't guarantee victory in the way they once did. It really beefs up lower powered opponents (I usually GM my group).

I also like the new damage system, and the fixes for weapon damage! (Though a bit disappointed in high powered ammo).
Churl Beck
Most of all, I like the new Matrix system. I like that there is less min-maxing at character creation. I like that glitches are more frequent (they add humor to the game). I like that Qualities are in the basic book (they add flavor to the characters). I like that the book is more organized compared to other editions. I like that the rules have been heavily revised (the changes from SR2 to SR3 were often so subtle that they were hard to notice without a side-by-side comparison). I like that the new rules are easier. I like that the rules for barriers do not blow my mind. I like Mentor Spirits for mages. I like that equipment is less expensive (so the rigger doesn't go broke just trying to keep up while the shaman hoards nuyen like a dragon).
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Lagomorph)
Oh yeah, another part I like, speaking of abstraction, is the abstracted vehicle chase rules. I've always felt that chase combats should be abstracted, and it was kind of lame that they weren't in SR3.

huh? it wasnt abstract in SR3? i wonder what vehicle rules i have been reading all these years...
Wizard
QUOTE (Clyde)
My vote goes for the new dice mechanic - it's a lot less predictable than SR3. You have more upset rolls and uncertainty, and huge dice pools don't guarantee victory in the way they once did. It really beefs up lower powered opponents (I usually GM my group).

Yeah, the dice mechanic gets my vote as well. Simple and fun!
Glyph
SR4 has a few big problems, but it also has lots and lots of little improvements.

You buy resources in increments, and buy spells and contacts separately from resources now. Attributes are good - you have to make harder choices, since they are all important. Even things like strength for, say, a hacker, since it affects how much armor you can wear without penalty. I also like the Edge attribute. Specializations simply go up with the skill, and you can buy skill groups now. Social skills are more balanced (interrogation is a specialization of intimidation, while negotiation has been split into negotiation and con).

Losing spell pool in favor of a counterspelling skill makes magic simpler (I liked combat pool, but spell pool was a pain, especially how spell defense worked). I like that you can buy spells without worrying about a specific force (it also gets rid of having to "re-learn" the same spell to have it at a higher force). Adept abilities are improved, and there is no longer just one way to optimize a close combat specialist. I didn't like Magic as a variable attribute at first, but now I think it adds more variety.

The whole world has been updated - the ludicrously expensive storage prices are gone, wired reflexes automatically have reflex triggers, cybereyes automatically come with visual recording capability, and there is a lot more detail on character lifestyles, not simply gear.
Ryu
I like the new cyberware. Prices, rules revision.

I like the new matrix.

I consider magic to be too powerful - by far. Against a combat mage even willpower+spell defense won´t be very safe from a one-spell-takedown. Secondary spells are worse by far. Player creativity+illusion magic... it works for low-magic chars I guess.
Cain
Sorry, but the only thing I really like about SR4 is that the quality of the rules text is really superior to anything previously released. I've run a few side-by-side combats, and found SR4 to be slower, since there are more mandatory opposed rolls, and we have to do calculate damage boxes instead of simply applying a fixed number. Edge bugs me to no end, since an Edge munchkin becomes invincible. I really, really despise the stat "splits", since they aren't really splits but meaningless additions. After months and months of trying, I still cannot create a SR4 character in anything less than two and a half hours, and sometimes it takes me five or more. The matrix would be much nicer if they used sci-fi terminology to give the game a future feel, instead of copying terms out of the WinXP user's manual. And while I might have liked the fact that they use modern slang, the fact that it's heavily mixed up with shadowslang makes the fiction unreadable. They really need to have picked one or another, and stuck with it, instead of the back-and-forth.

OTOH, the rules are written much more cleanly and clearly than ever before. They're not really any easier, but the writing quality is so good, they're easier to understand. The massive layout problems FASA had are entirely gone, and the rules are explained in a way that everyone can follow. That level of writing quality beats out many games on the market, and buries every single previous Shadowrun product.
Endgame50
My main complaint about any SR version is while they do admit to abstraction, they make an effort to try to explain things in realistic terms. This almost takes away from the feel of the game because people start dissecting FASA / FanPro's murky logic with real world logic and end up getting confused or deciding things can't possibly work in the world the way the makers say they do (from firearms to behavior) because it doesn't make any sense.

I reconcile the differences like so: the awakening changed the laws of physics. (It's maaaaagic) When the internet went down, they lost alot of data, so they were forced to use Wikipedia 2.0 to restore the sum of human knowledge. This led to many errors in the sum of human knowledge, but it was okay because unbeknownst to all, Dunkelzahn wove a great ritual into the matrix that made the contents of Wiki2.0 become reality.

That being said, I think SR4's streamlined White wolf rip off resolution system is quite good (though I have a feeling I'll be going through characters faster than ever before) and the loss of alot of extraneous splatbooks was in many ways a good things. (I know, they'll return) However, alot of the things weren't explained very well... leading to a lot of confusion about how things actually work in the world of 2070. Hopefully the new books will resolve some of it.
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