I am curious what Arcologies and the big Cities are like in the year 2070 according to SR. I ask this more in the interest of RPing and visualizing it as I play.
How big are the cities now? Are they not much bigger then they are now or big multi-tiered levels with its own roads and monorails and flying vehicels?
How high is the general tech here, is it like Blade Runner lvl where msg drones and cargo drones go around doing basic runs without need of humans and you have ground and even flying taxies for those who can afford it?
How big are the Arcologies, how many people in general do they hold? What kind of forces in general do they have protecting them from the stanadard security to high lvl teams?
I know in sci fi books where I first read about Arcologies over 20 years ago, an Arcology was massive in and of itself, a city on its own, so I am curious how big they are in SR since places like Seattle are only so big.
Is it more like Mini Arcologies within a massive Arcology of a big multi tiered city that once you get past the boundaries it suddenly drops to urban then run down sprawls?
I am just trying to get a better picture of it for game play visual in my head.
They just don't seem very descriptive yet and I get mixed impressions at the moment.
So any thoughts on this will be welcome.
Full Version: Arcologies and the big City
It's probably going to vary from group to group. I actually live in Seattle so I have a pretty hard time with some of the visualization, like the RenRaku Arcology stamping out Pioneer Square for example, or the frequent reference to having a Subway in some of the source material. As far as the Tech Level goes, the Hovercars or Antigrav Vehicles seen in a lot of Scifi don't exist yet. There are some Low Altitude Vehicles based on Vectored Thrust, but they are pretty expensive so they aren being used as taxis just yet. Private Tiltrotor Aircraft, Choppers, and Limos are still the transportation of choice for the rich, and most are probably better appointed than a middle class apartment. The population of the Seattle SPrawl (which stretches from the south end of Fort Lewis to the North End of Everett, from Puget Sound in the West to the Cascade Foothills in the east, is home to an estimated 6 Million or so, give or take a few million Squatters outside the "system" Parts of the City are nearly immaculate, save for the damage done by smog and acid rain, others are slums, a few are even smoldering volcanic debris fields. The bulk of the population lives in Apartment Buildings that may be 100 years old, rides the bus, or the Monorail (when it works) and works for a corp and burns their cred trying to forget about work.
The way I see it, the Shadowrun metroplex is American cities developing after the principle that people live were they work. So central parts of cities have grow and a lot more people live in corporate enclaves or arcologies. Some of the buildings there can be imagined as any kind of futuristic extravaganza really. On the other hand the suburbs have turn into the worst possible slums. For slums just imagine the area as it is now in -06, and then apply 64 years of violence, neglect and criminal tenants.
It's not really that black and white, but it's a general tendency.
It's not really that black and white, but it's a general tendency.
Dude, steve, the shadowrun which runs through the fiction openings of several chapters centers in the beginning around an air taxi ride taken by their target.
And this is yet another reason why not including even the bare minimum of info on Seattle like was in SR3 was just plain retarded.
And this is yet another reason why not including even the bare minimum of info on Seattle like was in SR3 was just plain retarded.
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| And this is yet another reason why not including even the bare minimum of info on Seattle like was in SR3 was just plain retarded. |
May have pissed a few people off but I believe they should have taken the opportunity with SR4 and distanced the game from being Seattle based. They should have left ANY reference to Seattle out of the book so that those that wanted to could continue the Seattle based games they were playing or wanting to play and those that wanted to play locally could use the source stuff and the rules as they were and if anyone asked about Seattle they could extrapolate from that. Just a slight focus change but would do no end of help towards winning new converts.
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| Dude, steve, the shadowrun which runs through the fiction openings of several chapters centers in the beginning around an air taxi ride taken by their target. |
That's long been a big problem with SR (all of them, not just 4) is that the Fiction rarely meets up with what is described in the Actual Mechanics and certainly not with the Artwork. Also that Air Taxi could have fit in to the Tilt-Rotor or Helicopter type of vehicle, they don't have to be Vectored Thrust.
| QUOTE (evil1i) | ||
May have pissed a few people off but I believe they should have taken the opportunity with SR4 and distanced the game from being Seattle based. They should have left ANY reference to Seattle out of the book so that those that wanted to could continue the Seattle based games they were playing or wanting to play and those that wanted to play locally could use the source stuff and the rules as they were and if anyone asked about Seattle they could extrapolate from that. Just a slight focus change but would do no end of help towards winning new converts. |
Great. So which city do you propose be covered in so much detail as to match the 16 years spent on Seattle?
And, for the air taxi part SL, a air taxi generally refers to a small one or two passenger heli, meant for high up business men nowadays, and probably has the same meaning in 2070.
And they've got prices listed for Air Taxis in the "Common Costs" insert, i think it's 1 nuyen/0.1 klick.
| QUOTE (SL James) | ||||
Great. So which city do you propose be covered in so much detail as to match the 16 years spent on Seattle? |
not to mention, it would be almost immpossible for newbies to the game to play, creasting a realistic homebrew for SR isnt nearly as easy as it is, for say d20, due to the real world links.
| QUOTE (Aku) |
| not to mention, it would be almost immpossible for newbies to the game to play, creasting a realistic homebrew for SR isnt nearly as easy as it is, for say d20, due to the real world links. |
| QUOTE (SL James @ Feb 14 2006, 12:50 AM) |
| Great. So which city do you propose be covered in so much detail as to match the 16 years spent on Seattle? |
Umm none! Couldn't they have just provided generic information? Sure keep the references to Seattle in the fiction pieces but way do they need to go into so much detail about the history of Seattle? Die hard SR players should know it so don't need it in the base rulebook. Newbies players sort of get railroaded into using Seattle as their setting because it is in the basic rules.
All I was suggesting was that references to Seattle should be minimised in the 4th Ed. version of the game simply because it would have provided the game developers with an expanded marketplace. Just think of all the places they could have sold this game to that won't buy it because it is USAcentric! I'm not saying that I hate the USA or that the USA is bad in anyway (not the forum for that) just that there are people out there who may avoid the game because it is too structured in it's setting or that the setting is unappealing.
and re Aku's comment about it being hard for a Newbies to create a realistic home-brew for SR, I think that is not entirely correct. Yes it is hard to make home-brew SR campaigns because of the real world links but I think thats because they are Seattle based so people who have never been to Seattle (or the USA) have trouble referencing what their own place might be like based on the situations given. Just as an example in SR:Seattle it is easier to get Handguns than it is to get Rifles in most cases yet where I live it is harder to get a handgun than it is to get a rifle. So surely a better option would have been to give costs and other stats for gear then provide a general category system for availability with each piece of gear getting a modifier. So for example in Assault Rifles you'd have:
Assault Rifles Damage AP Mode RC Ammo Availability Cost
AK-97 6P –1 SA/BF/FA — 38 © 0/0 500¥
Ares Alpha 6P –1 SA/BF/FA 2 42 © +6/+1 1,700¥
FN HAR 6P –1 SA/BF/FA 2 35 © +4/0 1,000¥
HK XM30 6P –1 SA/BF/FA (1) 30 © +6/+1 2,500¥
Then in the Availability table you'd have that between 3-6R is an average availability for most automatic weapons. The GM then just has to say that in Sydney Australia Assault Rifles have a base availability of 6R. But I guess that would just be too hard for anyone so feel free to ignore my suggestion
Why Seattle in the first place? I don't remember it being mentioned that FASA was based in Seattle.
FASA was based in Chicago.
Three reasons:
1. With the NAN created, you limit the number of potential "free" cities west of the Mississippi. L.A. is played-out and they had other plans for SF and Portland (although IMO they should have been switched around) which leaves only two major cities on the West Coast: Seattle and San Diego.
2. Seattle is surrounded by Native American influences down to its name. Washington has a relatively large Indian population, and their backgrounds tie into the shamanistic magic and NAN concepts used for SR.
3. Because it has a confluence of ideal climate and social conditions to allow for exploitation of cyberpunk motifs as well as a fairly good place to turn into refugee central.
Three reasons:
1. With the NAN created, you limit the number of potential "free" cities west of the Mississippi. L.A. is played-out and they had other plans for SF and Portland (although IMO they should have been switched around) which leaves only two major cities on the West Coast: Seattle and San Diego.
2. Seattle is surrounded by Native American influences down to its name. Washington has a relatively large Indian population, and their backgrounds tie into the shamanistic magic and NAN concepts used for SR.
3. Because it has a confluence of ideal climate and social conditions to allow for exploitation of cyberpunk motifs as well as a fairly good place to turn into refugee central.
You can't avoid having a setting though, even d20/dnd has a base setting in the book (greyhawk, iirc is what it expands into) Sure, there isn't MUCH there, but to seperate the rules from the fluff, leaves you with numbers, and something looking like the SRD. Think about it, you have no idea what a dnd elf is anymore, because in the books, it's a greyhawk elf, not a D20 elf.
Runner Havens will help with this a great deal when it is out. It should define one type of city in 2070 Shadowrun through six examples (including two in-depth examples of Seattle and Hong Kong) and background information on how a city comes to be defined as a "runner haven."
And RH will be the first in a series, each subsequent book focusing on a different type of city. There isn't really a single definition of a Shadowrun city, but they can be roughly put into categories. Players and GMs will be able to see the different styles and pick which ones they want to play in (or visit all of them) and should be presented with enough information to help them develop custom locations to fit in the atmosphere of these different city types.
There's no way we could write up any other city to have the 16 years of background information that Seattle has in SR. But many SR4 players aren't coming to the game with 16 years of Shadowrun Seattle background experience. The players who are coming with that extensive background will still be able to apply all that background to the information in Runner Havens.
The one-city focus on Seattle in the past has been awkward for gamemasters and writers alike. It became implausible to fixate all of Shadowrun's metaplot on Seattle but it became unwieldy to place plotlines in other areas of the world where we had given gamemasters very little background information. The new approach should create a balance, where plot points can be developed in different areas of the world but focused on areas we have provided background information on.
And RH will be the first in a series, each subsequent book focusing on a different type of city. There isn't really a single definition of a Shadowrun city, but they can be roughly put into categories. Players and GMs will be able to see the different styles and pick which ones they want to play in (or visit all of them) and should be presented with enough information to help them develop custom locations to fit in the atmosphere of these different city types.
There's no way we could write up any other city to have the 16 years of background information that Seattle has in SR. But many SR4 players aren't coming to the game with 16 years of Shadowrun Seattle background experience. The players who are coming with that extensive background will still be able to apply all that background to the information in Runner Havens.
The one-city focus on Seattle in the past has been awkward for gamemasters and writers alike. It became implausible to fixate all of Shadowrun's metaplot on Seattle but it became unwieldy to place plotlines in other areas of the world where we had given gamemasters very little background information. The new approach should create a balance, where plot points can be developed in different areas of the world but focused on areas we have provided background information on.
Uh huh. And when is RH coming out? Origins? If new players are lucky.
That's a genius release schedule. Create rules and then wait seven months for any actual setting, since Life on the Edge is about as useful in describing the world as reading the Almanac to get an impression of the U.S.
That's a genius release schedule. Create rules and then wait seven months for any actual setting, since Life on the Edge is about as useful in describing the world as reading the Almanac to get an impression of the U.S.
For much of what I have runin the past and am planning to run in the future, I have pretty much avoided of Seattle. My first campaign (pre TT source book) was set in Portland which had little if any details written about it at the time. When the TT book came out, I basically ended the campaign since so much had been changed & the nation itself became a kind of Elven Reich [complete with it's own version of the Berlin Wall & Checkpoint Charlie(s)].
I have for the most part been running in Europe - predominantly London (Londion Sourcebook), as well as the Balkans (again with freedom to design the setting since little or no background appeared about the region in SoE). My next campaign I will be centered around the Great lakes (I have been writing a lot about the Cheeshead state & have been working on write ups of both Milwaukee & Madison). It will the move to the Pacific Island nation of Hawai'i which again has only sparse information (even in SoA) allowing me to once again provide the details.
I have for the most part been running in Europe - predominantly London (Londion Sourcebook), as well as the Balkans (again with freedom to design the setting since little or no background appeared about the region in SoE). My next campaign I will be centered around the Great lakes (I have been writing a lot about the Cheeshead state & have been working on write ups of both Milwaukee & Madison). It will the move to the Pacific Island nation of Hawai'i which again has only sparse information (even in SoA) allowing me to once again provide the details.
Another question I would have on the larger scope.
What areas around the world would be ripe as central hubs besides Hong Kong, etc.
How many Arcologies would the AAA have around the world?
I am just curious, not much is mentioned about the UCAS and the CAS and what major areas they might use as a Seattle like setting.
Though realisticly a shawdow run can happen just about anywhere since it deals with more then just the AAAs.
Heck you could consider nocking off a beer truck a shadowrun at its basics but I am just curious how the SR world looks on the larger scale.
There are many countries and other smaller corperations looking to upscale and it would be nice to have an idea of what the political climate looks like for I am sure goverments would be hiring teams to that they could eaisly wash their hands of it things went wrong.
What areas around the world would be ripe as central hubs besides Hong Kong, etc.
How many Arcologies would the AAA have around the world?
I am just curious, not much is mentioned about the UCAS and the CAS and what major areas they might use as a Seattle like setting.
Though realisticly a shawdow run can happen just about anywhere since it deals with more then just the AAAs.
Heck you could consider nocking off a beer truck a shadowrun at its basics but I am just curious how the SR world looks on the larger scale.
There are many countries and other smaller corperations looking to upscale and it would be nice to have an idea of what the political climate looks like for I am sure goverments would be hiring teams to that they could eaisly wash their hands of it things went wrong.
| QUOTE (Deadjester @ Feb 15 2006, 04:02 PM) |
| Another question I would have on the larger scope. What areas around the world would be ripe as central hubs besides Hong Kong, etc |
Generally any place where there are corporate facilities doing something interesting, and a large enough population base to support a shadow community. Almost any major present day city fits the bill. A few have been pretty much decimated in the SR backstory (LA, New York, and Chicago jump to mind immediately). A semi lax law enforcement atmosphere helps but isn't necessary.
| QUOTE |
| How many Arcologies would the AAA have around the world? |
Depends on the corp. Renraku has 3 or 4, Ares doesn't have any iirc. Proteus is only a AA and they have 6 or so (I think) Al total there are probably more than 20 but less than 50 Arcologies worldwide (and this probably depends on how loose your defintition of an Arcology is)
| QUOTE |
| I am just curious, not much is mentioned about the UCAS and the CAS and what major areas they might use as a Seattle like setting. |
Two reasons. They didn't want the base book to be the size of an unabridged dictionary and they want you to buy upcoming setting products
| QUOTE |
| Though realisticly a shawdow run can happen just about anywhere since it deals with more then just the AAAs. Heck you could consider knocking off a beer truck a shadowrun at its basics but I am just curious how the SR world looks on the larger scale. There are many countries and other smaller corperations looking to upscale and it would be nice to have an idea of what the political climate looks like for I am sure goverments would be hiring teams to that they could eaisly wash their hands of it things went wrong. |
Get a copy of Loose Allaiances. Corps of all sizes, Goverments, Rich Individuals, Dragons, Secret Societies, Poli-Clubs, and even International NGO's all can find uses for runners. If you have the money and can make a connection, you too can hire the A-Team
| QUOTE (Deadjester) |
| What areas around the world would be ripe as central hubs besides Hong Kong, etc. |
Based on general size (some of these are not actual cities but are either Megaplexes or could become Megaplexes in the near future - specifically the German regions mentioned as they are areas of multiple medium sized urban areas in close proximity that could merge into a megaplex rather easily)
Tokyo (Greater Tokyo Area)
Mexico City (Greater Mexico City)
New York–Newark-New Jersey (New York metropolitan area)
Mumbai (Bombay)
São Paulo
Delhi
Kolkata (Calcutta)
Buenos Aires
Jakarta
Shanghai
Dhaka
Los Angeles–Long Beach–Santa Ana
Karachi
Rio de Janeiro
Osaka–Kobe
Cairo–Giza–Shubra
Lagos
Beijing
Manila
Moscow
Paris
Istanbul
Seoul
Tianjin
Chicago
Lima-Callao
London
Bogotá–Soacha
Tehran
Hong Kong
Chennai
Bangkok
Duisburg-Essen-Krefeld-Mülheim an der Ruhr-Oberhausen-Bottrop-Gelsenkirchen-Bochum-Dortmund-Hagen-Hamm-Herne
Bangalore
Lahore
Hyderabad
Wuhan
Baghdad
Kinshasa
Santiago
Riyadh
Miami
Philadelphia
Saint Petersburg
Belo Horizonte
Ahmedabad
Madrid
Toronto
Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon)
Chongqing
Shenyang, Liaoning
Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington (Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex)
Khartoum–Khartoum North–Omdurman
Pune
Barcelona
Sydney
Singapore City
Boston
Atlanta
Houston
Washington, DC
Chittagong
Hanoi
Yangon
Bandung
Milan
Detroit,
Guadalajara
Guangzhou
Jeddah
Porto Alegre
Alexandria
Casablanca
Darmstadt-Frankfurt am Main-Offenbach am Main-Wiesbaden (Greater Frankfurt)
Surat
Melbourne
Ankara
Busan (Pusan)
Recife
Monterrey
Abidjan
Montreal
Chengdu,
Phoenix–Mesa (Valley of the Sun)
San Francisco–Oakland
Brasilia
Salvador
Berlin
Düsseldorf-Mönchengladbach-Remscheid-Solingen-Wuppertal
Johannesburg
Kabul
Pyongyang
Caracas
Fortaleza
Algiers
Xi'an
Athens
Medellín
Nagoya
Cape Town
If you want to go by population the top 20 cities/metropolitan areas, and their populations, in the world are:
Tokyo 33 413 000
Mexico City 21 701 925
New York 21 199 865
Seoul 20 156 800
Sao Paulo 19 194 100
Djakarta 18 206 700
Osaka-Kyoto-Kobe 17 646 900
Delhi 17 367 300
Bombay (Mumbai) 17 340 900
Los Angeles 16 895 945
Cairo 16 244 700
Calcutta 14 362 546
Buenos Aires 14 235 106
Manila 14 140 000
Moscow 12 622 400
Shanghai 12 190 000
Rio de Janeiro 11 629 629
Teheran 11 475 100
Paris 11 367 193
The Ruhr 11 291 100
Wow, a whole not of not-arcology content on this thread... I posted up a thread earlier about a campaign I'm running set inside an arcology. It's nothing related to Deus or how one can turn an arcology into a big dungeon, but it serves as a setting. There's a bit of information there. Whether it will help you is another matter altogether since it's fairly stylized toward a larger arcology presence.
Anyway, it might help.
Anyway, it might help.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| It will the move to the Pacific Island nation of Hawai'i which again has only sparse information (even in SoA) allowing me to once again provide the details. |
Paradise Lost is a cool SB if you can find it.
Yo,
Greater London had 7,172,036 according to the April 2001 census.
That doesn't even include surrounding areas such as Berkshire and Surrey to name two.
Extrapolate that by 60 years.....
Just though i'd mention it as it was left out of the list
regards
bladepoet
Greater London had 7,172,036 according to the April 2001 census.
That doesn't even include surrounding areas such as Berkshire and Surrey to name two.
Extrapolate that by 60 years.....
Just though i'd mention it as it was left out of the list
regards
bladepoet
And Brisbane. We're the 4th largest city in the world, by area.
No offense, but I have been ti brisbane, and it is as far removed from being an archology or a plex as you can get.
Basically, it's really nice
Open spaces, lots of green
cheers
Ballad
Basically, it's really nice
Open spaces, lots of green
cheers
Ballad
Until you get into Ipswitch or Decreption Bay. They're halfway to being Barrens already, though Ipswitch is trying to fix that. The Western suburbs and the City are nice, though.
Oh mate,
come to the UK.
There are areas in reading or bristol where I wouldn't walk at night
or at day come to think of it.
One area in Bristol called Knowle West.....jeez DMZ
I think alot of people can get a good feel for what a sprawl would look like in their own country of residence.
As to the actual topic of the thread!!
Archology.
Imagine an airport crossed with a mall.
Singapore and Heathrow are huuuuuge, with various sections.
You could wander them all day, there are hotels in them, rest areas, offices, warehouses, police, etc
Then imagine that the with a few skyscraper towers and I'd say your somewhere near it
cheesr
bladepoet
come to the UK.
There are areas in reading or bristol where I wouldn't walk at night
or at day come to think of it.One area in Bristol called Knowle West.....jeez DMZ
I think alot of people can get a good feel for what a sprawl would look like in their own country of residence.
As to the actual topic of the thread!!
Archology.
Imagine an airport crossed with a mall.
Singapore and Heathrow are huuuuuge, with various sections.
You could wander them all day, there are hotels in them, rest areas, offices, warehouses, police, etc
Then imagine that the with a few skyscraper towers and I'd say your somewhere near it
cheesr
bladepoet
I have been reading Sci Fi/Fantasy books since the 70s and seen versions of acologies they have writtin about.
I looked it up Arcology and I found a interesting article on them written by Francis Frick that seems pretty up to date. If you read the whole article there are some major concerns that will effect the future of many people in it.
I think its worth reading just for general knowledge purpose at the very least
www.cityfarmer.org/frick.html#frick
I looked it up Arcology and I found a interesting article on them written by Francis Frick that seems pretty up to date. If you read the whole article there are some major concerns that will effect the future of many people in it.
I think its worth reading just for general knowledge purpose at the very least
www.cityfarmer.org/frick.html#frick
On the topic of arcologies:
There were 2 threads a while back that talked about this a lot, I believe they both died early January. Here are the links:
Running in the Shadows of New Babel:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...wtopic=11389&hl
Abandoned Arcologies:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...wtopic=11402&hl
There were 2 threads a while back that talked about this a lot, I believe they both died early January. Here are the links:
Running in the Shadows of New Babel:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...wtopic=11389&hl
Abandoned Arcologies:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...wtopic=11402&hl
If you are really into the idea of Arcologies, then the place to look is Paolo soleri. He is the guy who Invented the term, though the idea could be said to have been present in fiction for some time beofre him. He is an architect and one of the first people to seeriously consider the Idea of a city in a building. His book on arcologies is a massive folio with the hilarious introduction that says "This book is about miniturization. He is actually trying to get one built as well, though anyone who looks at the arcosanti project should realize that an arcology is never going to be built out in the desert by volunteers and charity donations. I think that after 20 years the project is less than 1 percent completed.
check it out here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcology
check it out here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcology
| QUOTE (evil1i) |
| Duisburg-Essen-Krefeld-Mülheim an der Ruhr-Oberhausen-Bottrop-Gelsenkirchen-Bochum-Dortmund-Hagen-Hamm-Herne Bangalore |
Which in SR happen to be united into one 20-million-citizens sprawl called Rhine-Ruhr Megaplex.
Well, possibly without Bangalore...
"From the east coast to the west coast...
- Agnostic Front "
- Agnostic Front
"
Also, Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paolo are one big megaplex. In fact, they're the only urban center of any real size left in the mojo-happy back-to-nature land of Amazonia.
Great place for work, as long as your speak Portugese and can run really fast.
Great place for work, as long as your speak Portugese and can run really fast.
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