Dumpshock Forums > Astral Combat Question

The Horror

Feb 19 2006, 07:44 PM

Astral Combat is a Willpower skill, yet Willpower is the equivalent of Body in the astral. Shouldn't Astral Combat be a Logic skill since Logic is the equivalent of Agility?

Churl Beck

Feb 19 2006, 09:20 PM

Good question.

Brahm

Feb 19 2006, 09:23 PM

Chalk it up to a SR3 holdover.

stevebugge

Feb 20 2006, 04:36 PM

Ok, had a situation in my last game of hand to hand combat Astrally Perceiving Character vs. fully Astral Spirit. A couple of things came up.

When the perceiving mage is struck by the spirit does he take Physical or Stun damage (water spirit if it makes a difference)?

Would the perceiving mage use his Unarmed Combat or Astral Combat skill to attack?

Serbitar

Feb 20 2006, 04:42 PM

I would say

a) same as both were astrally projecting
b) unarmed combat, the mage still has to carry his body arround

BishopMcQ

Feb 20 2006, 05:05 PM

QUOTE (SR4 p.184)

Astral Combat
Astral combat is resolved in the same way as physical combat. Astrally perceiving and dual natured characters use their Physical attributes and skills to fight opponents with a physical body, and their Willpower + Astral Combat skill to fight wholly astral entities. Astrally projecting characters use their Mental attributes in place of Physical ones (see the Astral Attributes Table, above) along with the Astral Combat skill. There are no known ranged weapons that function in astral space, so unarmed attacks, active weapon foci (see p. 192), and mana spells are the only options for astral combat.
Most astral combat damage is based on the character’s astral strength (Charisma), as noted on the Astral Combat table. Damage inflicted from astral combat attacks can be either Stun or Physical (attacker’s choice). Astral objects like barriers can only be affected by Physical damage.

Steve--Answer to the first question will depend on the Spirit, its temperament and its orders. Astral combat against the astral spirit, when it materializes then you use physical combat skills.

stevebugge

Feb 20 2006, 05:11 PM

QUOTE (McQuillan)

QUOTE (SR4 p.184)

Astral Combat
Astral combat is resolved in the same way as physical combat. Astrally perceiving and dual natured characters use their Physical attributes and skills to fight opponents with a physical body, and their Willpower + Astral Combat skill to fight wholly astral entities. Astrally projecting characters use their Mental attributes in place of Physical ones (see the Astral Attributes Table, above) along with the Astral Combat skill. There are no known ranged weapons that function in astral space, so unarmed attacks, active weapon foci (see p. 192), and mana spells are the only options for astral combat.
Most astral combat damage is based on the character’s astral strength (Charisma), as noted on the Astral Combat table. Damage inflicted from astral combat attacks can be either Stun or Physical (attacker’s choice). Astral objects like barriers can only be affected by Physical damage.

Steve--Answer to the first question will depend on the Spirit, its temperament and its orders. Astral combat against the astral spirit, when it materializes then you use physical combat skills.

Thanks. I still get these mixed up with older rule sets quite a bit.

Churl Beck

Feb 25 2006, 12:02 PM

I took this question up with a couple of my players before implementing any changes, and we discovered something unexpected: by the RAW, Astral Combat slightly favors Shamans over Mages. The reason is that Shamans roll Willpower + Charisma to resist drain, while Mages roll Willpower + Logic to resist drain. This means that Shamans and Mages have an incentive to invest in Charisma and Logic, respectively. However, Logic (unlike Charisma) is not used in Astral Combat. So when a Shaman increases his ability to resist drain, he simultaneously increases his effectiveness in astral combat, but the same is not true for Mages. Those points must be invested separately.

This can be fixed by making Astral Combat linked with Logic. That is, in astral combat, Mages will tend to hit their targets more often, but Shamans will tend to hit their targets more forcefully.

The only other magical use for Logic seems to be in limiting a character's active foci count. However, this is at least compensated by the fact that Charisma determines a character's spirit limit.

Thoughts?

The Horror

Feb 25 2006, 12:31 PM

Yep. We found exactly the same thing when playing. That's why nobody questioned the ruling of making Astral Combat a Logic skill.

Churl Beck

Feb 25 2006, 05:46 PM

QUOTE (The Horror)

Yep. We found exactly the same thing when playing. That's why nobody questioned the ruling of making Astral Combat a Logic skill.

I have a Shaman in my group with a Willpower of 7 and a Logic of 1, so I didn't get off so easy. Most of the arguments focused on whether or not Logic is even a sensible substitute for Agility in astral space. The best explanation seemed to be that a character's logic dictates one's grasp of tactics and/or strategy, like a chess game. That wasn't very persuasive, but I argued that it makes at least as much sense as saying that Charisma = Strength.

The other argument was that many of the physical combat skills should be linked with Strength (rather than Agility) anyway. For instance, the ability to wield a heavy sword has more to do with a person's strength rather than agility. Perhaps, but I also think that the metal alloys in Shadowrun will tend to be lighter than those in, say, D&D, and besides, weight doesn't seem to have much meaning in astral space.