Full Version: Technomancers & Cyberware
Okay, apart from continuing the (worn-out) theme of Technomancer=Magician, why does Resonance decrease with Essence? I realise the fear of the wired technomancer-sammy, but it's hard enough to give technomancers skills right now as it is, much less having them any good fighting, or having any kind of resources. But what's wrong with a datajack? A cerebral booster? A sleep regulator? The otaku had all these in spades. Why not technomaners?
picture adding old mac parts to a win 95 system...
| QUOTE (Liper) |
| picture adding old mac parts to a win 95 system... |
I... can't. The abomination would end the universe as we know it.
i can the game-balance reasoning for it, i guess, but i've hated the idea since i first heard about it.
that's the problem I have with it as well. Everything that the otaku represented worked in perfect synch with cyber. I always had a hard time seeing an otaku without cyber, especially eyes. Now the grown up version seems almost the antithesis . They're so technology oriented that they're... anthi-technology? WTF?
The only explanation I see is that it's for balance, which is f-ing retarded IMO. So you're trying to limit them, to keep the balance. But at the same time, you have mages w/ unlimited advancement. The idea of changing anything in the context of the game world for the sake of balance is just wrong IMO. The rules should reflect the reality, not the other way around.
The only explanation I see is that it's for balance, which is f-ing retarded IMO. So you're trying to limit them, to keep the balance. But at the same time, you have mages w/ unlimited advancement. The idea of changing anything in the context of the game world for the sake of balance is just wrong IMO. The rules should reflect the reality, not the other way around.
fistandantilus, i love you.
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Feb 22 2006, 09:23 AM) |
| that's the problem I have with it as well. Everything that the otaku represented worked in perfect synch with cyber. I always had a hard time seeing an otaku without cyber, especially eyes. Now the grown up version seems almost the antithesis . They're so technology oriented that they're... anthi-technology? WTF? |
The fact that they organically interface with technology doesn't make them anti-tech. And the fact that they have the biological equivalent of a commlink in their bodies doesn't make it compatible or make it work in tandem with hardtech equivalents (especially invasive hardtech systems).
Maybe the difference lies in what separates technomancers from otaku? But we'll be getting to that soon enough...
| QUOTE |
| The only explanation I see is that it's for balance, which is f-ing retarded IMO. So you're trying to limit them, to keep the balance. But at the same time, you have mages w/ unlimited advancement. |
This is a false argument. Mages and technomancers have essentially the same limits on their "unlimited" advancement. Both lose Essence and hence their Special Attribute when implanting cyber...
granted that explanations can be come up with that explain the technomancers' augmentation weakness, i have a hard time believing that TMs were given this weakness for stylistic reasons rather than game-balance reasons. i believe explanations were probably fabricated once the game effects were decided--which is fistandantilus' complaint. the next-gen otaku seem fairly "rules first, story second", especially in comparison with SR3-style otaku.
thanks mfb. undortuantely I usually have to rely on someone else to explain my point more elloquently than I myself can.
Synner: Maybe I do just need more info to work with. As you say, there is something that seperates TM's form the otaku, and that something isn't something that I'm aware of. It could be that I'm missing part of the equation. It could also be that I really liked the otaku as the tech children-cybered-eyed, alienated-mal-adjusted type . That's just me.
As far as technomancers vs mages, I see it more as mages having foci, and therefore technomancers should get to have cyber. And to my mind at least, it goes more with the feel of technomancers. Apparently you see it more as a bio-styled tech interface. So why does bioware effect them?
Synner: Maybe I do just need more info to work with. As you say, there is something that seperates TM's form the otaku, and that something isn't something that I'm aware of. It could be that I'm missing part of the equation. It could also be that I really liked the otaku as the tech children-cybered-eyed, alienated-mal-adjusted type . That's just me.
As far as technomancers vs mages, I see it more as mages having foci, and therefore technomancers should get to have cyber. And to my mind at least, it goes more with the feel of technomancers. Apparently you see it more as a bio-styled tech interface. So why does bioware effect them?
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| granted that explanations can be come up with that explain the technomancers' augmentation weakness, i have a hard time believing that TMs were given this weakness for stylistic reasons rather than game-balance reasons. i believe explanations were probably fabricated once the game effects were decided--which is fistandantilus' complaint. the next-gen otaku seem fairly "rules first, story second", especially in comparison with SR3-style otaku. |
I'll agree to disagree. While I wasn't on the SR4 development team, my impression has always been that Technomancers were developed first as a concept (a new breed of otaku for a reborn Matrix) and then converted to rules that balanced with the overall SR4 system. In that respect they were developed as story element and then translated into rules. This means their contribution to the overall setting (hence role as a story element) was fully developed, though it doesn't mean that the specifics of how their abilities would work were entirely worked out in advance. What I can vouch for, is the fact that technomancer abilities and how they might feasibly work biologically (well, as feasibly as an otaku's brain decoding and converting ASIST in realtime) were addressed and discussed long before SR4 was finalized.
| QUOTE |
| Synner: Maybe I do just need more info to work with. As you say, there is something that seperates TM's form the otaku, and that something isn't something that I'm aware of. It could be that I'm missing part of the equation. It could also be that I really liked the otaku as the tech children-cybered-eyed, alienated-mal-adjusted type. That's just me. |
The simple fact is Technomancers are capable of stuff Otaku were not. That means a fundamental change/evolution (if technomancers are even an evolution of otaku) has taken place.
| QUOTE |
| As far as technomancers vs mages, I see it more as mages having foci, and therefore technomancers should get to have cyber. |
Well, maybe the developers decided that having sprites and drones was quite enough in the balancing department, and decided not to introduce technomancer "foci" or maybe they're saving it for later... after all, technomancers are new on the scene and foci wouldn't have cropped up in the early years of the Awakening either.
| QUOTE |
| And to my mind at least, it goes more with the feel of technomancers. Apparently you see it more as a bio-styled tech interface. So why does bioware effect them? |
I don't see the interface itself as biological but that the "hardware". It's important to note that cyberware isn't reduced in functionality, nor does the technomancer have any difficulties using it - so it might not even be a compatibility issue and rather an effect of the overall systemic disruption any intrusive implantation might provoke (IMHO and in no way representative of FanPro's views).
I think on some points we're stuck at 'agree to disagree' but thanks for your feedback and POV. At least it gives me something else to look at and work with.
My problem with technomancers and otaku and cyberware is that according to the relevant books (SR4 BBB and System Failure) a large number of the current technomancers come from two camps... ex Otaku, and those who had their brains plugged into the old Matrix at the time of the Crash.
All of the old Otaku had datajacks and ASIST modules (sim modules) installed for free as part of Character creation. They HAD to have them to do their thing.
I'm fuzzy on how SR3 hot sim worked (its been a while), but I don't think that trodes cut it back then, meaning that in order to have your brain connected when it crashed (and recieve all the brain damage that came along with it) you would ALSO have to have had a datajack, minimally. (I very well could be wrong here, but IIRC anyone using trodes in SR3 was immune to psychotropic IC, etc) And that a lot of hte people online during the crash were hard core chromed out deckers with cyberlimbs, and cranial cyberdecks, etc.
So, in my opinion, a hefty chunk of modern Technomancers should have had (at one time or another) a hole drilled into their brain. With no way to regain lost essense, they are looking at a -1 resonance hit off the bat.
Of course, the SR4 rules don't even hint that this might be common. So all of the new technomancers (PC ones, at least) are fresh-off-the-boat "new" Otaku that have never had an implant in their lives. Its just not worth the 20 BP or whatever it costs you to have a datajack you'll never use, or perminantly lowered matrix abilities.
I'm not sure what my point is, but I guess I would have liked it if there was some sort of rule where the first 0.5 essense-loss doesn't hurt you or something. Of course that would break the new SR4 mantra of repeating the same rules for everything and pretending its something new. (My group always gets a kick out of it when we talk about "summoining sprites" or "registering spirits" or technomancers "taking drain" - but its just easier to have one lexicon for the same rules).
I definatly do not believe that they came up with the concept for Technos first and THEN tried to make rules for them... unless their concept was "Otaku that follow all of the magician rules" or something similar. I dunno, maybe they did, and their original concept was cool and awesome - but complicated, or just too powerful, so in the end, when the release date was closing in someone with authority over that section of hte book said "Fuck it, let's just make them like mages, but rename everything - no one will know!"
All of the old Otaku had datajacks and ASIST modules (sim modules) installed for free as part of Character creation. They HAD to have them to do their thing.
I'm fuzzy on how SR3 hot sim worked (its been a while), but I don't think that trodes cut it back then, meaning that in order to have your brain connected when it crashed (and recieve all the brain damage that came along with it) you would ALSO have to have had a datajack, minimally. (I very well could be wrong here, but IIRC anyone using trodes in SR3 was immune to psychotropic IC, etc) And that a lot of hte people online during the crash were hard core chromed out deckers with cyberlimbs, and cranial cyberdecks, etc.
So, in my opinion, a hefty chunk of modern Technomancers should have had (at one time or another) a hole drilled into their brain. With no way to regain lost essense, they are looking at a -1 resonance hit off the bat.
Of course, the SR4 rules don't even hint that this might be common. So all of the new technomancers (PC ones, at least) are fresh-off-the-boat "new" Otaku that have never had an implant in their lives. Its just not worth the 20 BP or whatever it costs you to have a datajack you'll never use, or perminantly lowered matrix abilities.
I'm not sure what my point is, but I guess I would have liked it if there was some sort of rule where the first 0.5 essense-loss doesn't hurt you or something. Of course that would break the new SR4 mantra of repeating the same rules for everything and pretending its something new. (My group always gets a kick out of it when we talk about "summoining sprites" or "registering spirits" or technomancers "taking drain" - but its just easier to have one lexicon for the same rules).
I definatly do not believe that they came up with the concept for Technos first and THEN tried to make rules for them... unless their concept was "Otaku that follow all of the magician rules" or something similar. I dunno, maybe they did, and their original concept was cool and awesome - but complicated, or just too powerful, so in the end, when the release date was closing in someone with authority over that section of hte book said "Fuck it, let's just make them like mages, but rename everything - no one will know!"
| QUOTE (BlackHat) |
| So, in my opinion, a hefty chunk of modern Technomancers should have had (at one time or another) a hole drilled into their brain. With no way to regain lost essense, they are looking at a -1 resonance hit off the bat. Of course, the SR4 rules don't even hint that this might be common. So all of the new technomancers (PC ones, at least) are fresh-off-the-boat "new" Otaku that have never had an implant in their lives. Its just not worth the 20 BP or whatever it costs you to have a datajack you'll never use, or perminantly lowered matrix abilities. |
Indeed.
Although there are probably more than a few awakened people who had holes drilled into their heads and other ware installed before they found out about their abilities too.
Nor does the book state that only Otakus and some people who were wired up to the matrix became Technos.
Some Otakus may well have not changed, and faded (which would be a pretty interesting character to play, especially after you decide what they respec too), and some technomancers may not have been connected to the matrix during the 2nd crash, we currently don't really have the info though.
| QUOTE (Ranneko) |
| Nor does the book state that only Otakus and some people who were wired up to the matrix became Technos. Some Otakus may well have not changed, and faded (which would be a pretty interesting character to play, especially after you decide what they respec too), and some technomancers may not have been connected to the matrix during the 2nd crash, we currently don't really have the info though. |
But it should be possbile to play ex-Otkau. And Blackhat is right about the in-game-inconsistency - where are the ex-Otkau-now-Technomancers?
| QUOTE (Grinder) | ||
But it should be possbile to play ex-Otkau. And Blackhat is right about the in-game-inconsistency - where are the ex-Otkau-now-Technomancers? |
And you can, you give them the cyberware, and take the penalties.
Yes there is no advantage to having done that but that is how you make an ex-otaku technomancer.
Typically you then give them a high resonance and low physical stats, good mental stats, and computer skills.
If you are converting over an old character, then one of the first things you would do with the karma would be to fix up the reduced resonance issue.
I know - but it should be mentioned somewhere in the rulebook, that ex-Otaku are a PC option.
in SR3, you could run hot sim off a set of trodes. you just couldn't use pure DNI(!?!?!).
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| in SR3, you could run hot sim off a set of trodes. you just couldn't use pure DNI(!?!?!). |
okay, well, that clears up why a lot of the people I figured had to have datajacks, don't.
If trodes are enough, the majority of people online could have been using those.
And, I think for game balance sake, its good that technos arn't cyber-friendly...
I'm willing to just accept that out there, somewhere are a bunch of non-PC people who made bad characer-design choices... including cybered up ex Otaku.
But it won't stop it from bothering me every time I want to make a technomancer with some sort of Otaku-ish background and feel dirty for not blowing away 25 build points to try to maintain a minimum of 5 resonance.
that is, indeed, part of what i don't like about TMs.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| in SR3, you could run hot sim off a set of trodes. you just couldn't use pure DNI(!?!?!). |
Well, even that's not necessarily true. The rules were pretty vague on it (big surprise, huh?); the only place I remember them even mentioning it is page 17, and all you see there is that "Even with a datajack, most users still use keyboards, touchpads and other manual controls when interfacing with a computer." So they imply that datajacks are better than trodes, not that pure DNI was impossible. There's a bit earlier that mentions that datajacks allow users access to DNI devices, but there doesn't seem to be any implication that trodes can't do the same things, just that they're slower.
Frankly though noone in their right mind would ever bother running hit ASIST from a trode net. The only reason to use hot ASIST is to boost your Matrix Reaction and Initiative, both of which are severely limited with trodes.
At least that's how it worked under SR3. Apparently by 2070 they figured out how to make magnetic induction work faster or something so none of that matters anymore.
| QUOTE (BlackHat) |
| And, I think for game balance sake, its good that technos arn't cyber-friendly... |
The problem I have with it is that making technos not cyber-friendly unbalanced the game again, this time making technos useless. So they had to go back and re-rebalance everything to keep the technos from sucking, which in a way ruined the flavor of the gameworld, in a few small ways.
See, before SR4 everyone used a datajack because without one the Matrix was slow and clunky. The Matrix was a part of everyone's life, so everyone had a jack to better interface with it. Unfortunately technos can't use jacks because it hits their Resonance. So now we have trodes that fit in a hat that do the same thing as all those datajacks do, making the datajack completely obselete and useless. Now there's no longer a reason for everyone to have a datajack, and every reason not to have one at all. Who in their right mind would undergo unnecessary brain surgery for essentially no benefit? Indeed, in a wireless world a jack would be a liability, because it's that much harder to force a disconnect if you really need one.
There's now a similar problem with cyberears and eyes. It used to be that people would be willing to rip out their eyes and ear and install mechanical ones because the benefits were there. Now everything can be gotten in shades for less money and no unnecessary surgery.
To be honest I don't see where the game balance is in disallowing technos from getting cyber. They're already sinking most of their BPs into complex forms; why not throw them a bone and let them get their jacks too? That way you can keep the old the trode limitations and other things that encouraged people to get cyber in the first place.
I could have sworn this discussion was beaten to death already.
Hi. Let me beat it some more.
actually I just rad that chapter about Technomancer last night. Been slow to read it. And while I think the Technomancer concept is really quite cool, I not so happy with there angle of making them mages but in the net. Something a little more original would be nice.
But about the cyberware loss, it kinda made sense to me. It's mentioned that Technomancer work through a unique and not-understood brain biochemistry. In theory. Cyberware could very well mess that up. My reaction was make it full damgage for all headware, and maybe half for bodyware. Seeing as how there is still a mind-machine interface. Except maybe dermal plating.
What I would do is say that cyberware worn at the time of one's becoming a Technomancer wouldn't be problem. When you get Jack BNimble'd, your soul effectively changes; your Resonance becomes attuned to the body that has a datajack, a cyberarm, and two eyes; it knows nothing of your meat body, and doesn't care. I'd houserule that any cyberware gotten at character creation doesn't affect resonance, it's just everything afterwards.
I don't see any in-game logic there.
Simple.
... nanites.
I think its the way you're looking at them.
We had deckers. They needed a datajack and a deck to get online. Didn't need the rest of the fancy gear that you're talking about. The other stuff helped but wasn't requrired and it didn't interfere.
Then we had Otaku to, where they needed a datajack but they didn't need a deck...but using a deck actualy limited them. The rest of the stuff acted the same way as with deckers.
Now we have technomancers, who don't need the datajack or 'deck'. And using either one limits them. (Seems like natural progression here) But since technology's advanced to the point where a datajack isn't needed anymore anyways, it shifts into the other gear as well. While it still can posibly help it also limits them, just as the deck limited a otaku. Now the tech that helped the otaku limits them.
Prety much a logical progression... Needs the tech and not limited by it. Doesn't need the tech as much and can be limited by it. Doesn't need the tech at all and is limited by it.
And you can very easily play a otaku become technomancer. You can either make the technomancer with some cyberware. Or you can make a sr3 otaku and use the conversion rules...
Its just not the standard because its a new eddition. And really when you have new players coming in without knowing all about how to twink out a otaku in sr3, there's no reason to add in 'most technomancers should have x y and z and you should probably get this to simulate bieing one and you can only get a much resonance because of it to show you were a old otaku' Yeah that makes no sense to give new players. Infact its a stupid ass idea. No need to confuse people more about the archetype. No need to make things needlessly complicated. I think most of us here are smart enough to go, 'well i want to play a technomancer who's a former otaku...i need to pick up x y and z to fit in with the theme'. Gasp! Its not that hard people...stop crying because they handed you a apple with its skin, and you're mad because they didn't peel it for you.
We had deckers. They needed a datajack and a deck to get online. Didn't need the rest of the fancy gear that you're talking about. The other stuff helped but wasn't requrired and it didn't interfere.
Then we had Otaku to, where they needed a datajack but they didn't need a deck...but using a deck actualy limited them. The rest of the stuff acted the same way as with deckers.
Now we have technomancers, who don't need the datajack or 'deck'. And using either one limits them. (Seems like natural progression here) But since technology's advanced to the point where a datajack isn't needed anymore anyways, it shifts into the other gear as well. While it still can posibly help it also limits them, just as the deck limited a otaku. Now the tech that helped the otaku limits them.
Prety much a logical progression... Needs the tech and not limited by it. Doesn't need the tech as much and can be limited by it. Doesn't need the tech at all and is limited by it.
And you can very easily play a otaku become technomancer. You can either make the technomancer with some cyberware. Or you can make a sr3 otaku and use the conversion rules...
Its just not the standard because its a new eddition. And really when you have new players coming in without knowing all about how to twink out a otaku in sr3, there's no reason to add in 'most technomancers should have x y and z and you should probably get this to simulate bieing one and you can only get a much resonance because of it to show you were a old otaku' Yeah that makes no sense to give new players. Infact its a stupid ass idea. No need to confuse people more about the archetype. No need to make things needlessly complicated. I think most of us here are smart enough to go, 'well i want to play a technomancer who's a former otaku...i need to pick up x y and z to fit in with the theme'. Gasp! Its not that hard people...stop crying because they handed you a apple with its skin, and you're mad because they didn't peel it for you.
What does everyone think about my houserule? Broken? Broken or not, it seems quite logical. It'll also keep people from upgrading their cyberware, and they'll have to buy it all at SR3 prices.
maybe, since it seems that techno's use some sort ofelectrical field based in the metahuman body, that the addition of cyber impacts the way this field works, not necessarily by "deminishing" it (although, assuming that cyber uses mostly non-conductive materials, it's possible) but more of a re-routing of the way the path flows around the metahuman body?
emo, I would maybe limit it to 2-3 points of ess before they have to start paying. after that, you start cresting the "more machine than man" level of cyber.
I think my own house rule would be to allow TM's to have 1 point of ess spent that doesn't affect their resonance, that way you can still have the cyber jack and eyes, or maybe a logic booster and a sleep regulator or something.
I think my own house rule would be to allow TM's to have 1 point of ess spent that doesn't affect their resonance, that way you can still have the cyber jack and eyes, or maybe a logic booster and a sleep regulator or something.
Why not follow what they say in the conversion rules as close as possible?
| QUOTE |
| Otaku/Technomancers: SR3 otaku become technomancers in SR4 and start play with a Resonance attribute of 4 or their maximum Resonance attribute due to Essence loss, which ever is lower. Submersion grades in SR3 carry over to SR4. For each grade, the technomancer chooses one echo from the list on p.238. Alternately, the character may sacrifi ce a submersion grade and increase his Resonance attribute by 1 instead. Th e Resonance attribute may not exceed 6 + Submersion Grade – Essence loss (round up). Aft er calculating Resonance, characters can calculate their Living Persona ratings from the table on p. 233. Th e Channels of the otaku no longer exist. Instead, technomancer characters have access to the Resonance skills Compiling, Decompiling, and Registering (detailed on pp. 119 and 234)—grouped together as the Tasking skill group. Technomancers receive a Tasking skill group with a rating equal to (Charisma + Intuition + Logic + Willpower) ÷ ��4 (round up). Th e maximum rating for this skill group is 5. |
That sounds fair.
As far as an otaku-turned-technoshaman with cyber, the easiest thing, as Isee it, is simply to say that they have already dealt with the resonance loss due to cyber. If they havea resonance of 5 for example, then in game, they would have been stronger (6) but the cyber reduced it a bit. If they have 6, you have to waive a hand and hit the suspension of disbelief button (assuming you're not already holding it downto play a technomancer) and say that they were at 7 and went to six. There's in in-character knowledge that you have to have submerged to have "resonance rating of 7". So it's really not a problem.
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