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Lagomorph
In reading over the direct combat spells last night, it appears that direct spells don't have any kind of damage resistance roll.

the passage in question is this:
QUOTE (SR4 pg 195)
Direct Combat Spells: Handle these as an Opposed Test. THe caster's Magic + Spellcasting is resisted by the target's Body (for physical spells) or Willpower (for mana spells), plus Counterspelling (if available). The caster needs at least on net hit for the spell to take effect. Direct Combat spells affect the target from the inside, so armor dose not help with the resistance.


So from this passage, it appears that if you don't resist the spell fully, you get no chance to stage the damage down. This is the only combat action where you get no opportunity to stage the damage down.

An example would be like this:

Fire a 5P gun and a force 5 spell
Get 3 successes on both rolls
Target gets one test to resist/dodge
Target faces 7p from both
He now can use body/armor to reduce damage from gun but not from spell

Has any one else noticed this inconsistancy? Or have a better reading of what the rules say for this? Or created a house rule?
TinkerGnome
I think you're reading it right. It worked that way in SR3, as well.

The balancing factors are that spells cause drain and casting a spell requires a complex action. Thus, it's not so much a single force 5 spell vs. a 5P gunshot as a force 5 spell vs. two 5P gunshots.
Endgame50
In SR3, the resistance roll WAS the staging roll. There was no chance to avoid it at all (barring magical aid of teammates). So this is actually a bit of a step up in that you have a chance (albeit small) of completely "evading" a spell on your own.
Crusher Bob
Actually, you can fully avoid the effects of the spell (i.e. not even take the base damage) if you get more successes on your resistance roll than the mage gets to hit you. The mage needs at least one net hit (after the resistance roll) to effect you with direct magic. On the other hand, indirect magic (elemental manipulations), as they create actual physical explosions, do not suffer from this problem.

edit

here's the quote, p174 of sr4
QUOTE
The caster must generate at least 1 net hit on the Opposed Test for the spell to succeed.
Thanee
And don't forget, that you (technically) get more dice to resist (Body or Willpower plus Counterspelling (without Counterspelling magic is extremely nasty for sure, but that's most likely how it is supposed to be)), than you get to dodge a bullet (Reaction only).

Of course, you can boost Reaction better than Willpower usually...

Bye
Thanee
Ryu
And there is still damage resistance after the reaction (+ possibly dodge) roll.
Thanee
Yeah, that makes the two roughly even (with Counterspelling at hand), which is what I meant to say. smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
Zen Shooter01
Just to throw a little light, an example of how I understand it:

Magician throws a force 5 mana bolt and scores two hits.

Target rolls his Willpower + Counterspelling (if any) and scores one hit.

The magician takes the base damage, which is same as the force, adds his net hits to it, and does 6 damage.

But if the target had rolled two hits or more, the magician would have had no net hits, and done no damage at all.

And keep this little factoid in mind about the ever popular mana bolt. The force is not only the base damage, but a limiter on how many hits can be achieved on the spellcasting test. So the maximum possible damage of a manabolt is force x2, meaning that a force 4 manabolt has no chance of incapacitating a metahuman.
Azralon
Yes; direct spell resistance rolls are basically "dodge" rolls. You can reduce the DV, but if you get enough hits you negate the spell effects upon you altogether. There's no "soak" roll.

Indirect spells get the normal dodge-like roll as well as a soak roll.
Moon-Hawk
edit: This post is crap, ignore it. I posted without thinking.


QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Feb 24 2006, 10:58 AM)
And keep this little factoid in mind about the ever popular mana bolt. The force is not only the base damage, but a limiter on how many hits can be achieved on the spellcasting test. So the maximum possible damage of a manabolt is force x2, meaning that a force 4 manabolt has no chance of incapacitating a metahuman.

So force 4. Max successes 8. Assume no successes on the resistance test. 8 net successes. Add net successes to the base damage of the spell, which is 4, right? 12 damage. Am I doing this wrong?
Brahm
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Feb 24 2006, 11:20 AM)
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Feb 24 2006, 10:58 AM)
And keep this little factoid in mind about the ever popular mana bolt. The force is not only the base damage, but a limiter on how many hits can be achieved on the spellcasting test. So the maximum possible damage of a manabolt is force x2, meaning that a force 4 manabolt has no chance of incapacitating a metahuman.

So force 4. Max successes 8. Assume no successes on the resistance test. 8 net successes. Add net successes to the base damage of the spell, which is 4, right? 12 damage. Am I doing this wrong?

Base 4 DV + 1 DV per net hit, maximum 4 hits meaning a maximum of 4 net hits. So 8 DV maximum. 8 DV is only reached if the target had no hits on their resistance roll, each resistance roll hit reduces that maximum even if it does not negate the spell.
Moon-Hawk
Oh, I was thinking max successes was twice force. Nevermind, I'm retarded.
Azralon
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Feb 24 2006, 11:58 AM)
And keep this little factoid in mind about the ever popular mana bolt. The force is not only the base damage, but a limiter on how many hits can be achieved on the spellcasting test. So the maximum possible damage of a manabolt is force x2, meaning that a force 4 manabolt has no chance of incapacitating a metahuman.

Absolutely.

Now, depending on how your GM interprets the "casting multiple spells simultaneously" option, you might be able to incap a single target by throwing two Force 4 Manabolts at him at the same time.

You'd still have to split your casting dice between the two spells, and the drain would go from 2 to a 3 on each spell. But, if the dice gods are very kind to the mage, you're looking at a maximum of 16P damage done in one complex action for the price of soaking 3 points of drain twice.

Bump it to Force 5 if you can for a little extra damage at no additional drain, by the way.

Of course it means your target is all the more likely to just outright resist your spells completely. If you're a beefy mage throwing, say, 12 casting dice normally, then you're looking at casting with something like 6 and 6 against the target's Willpower.

Your odds are still pretty decent of getting one net hit but not near as assured as if you had just cast the one Force 5 and relied upon net hits to stage up the damage to something respectable.

Of course, throwing two spells at once also means you have two chances to use Edge. It also means the target likewise has two chances, but usually PCs have more Edge than NPCs. Usually.

So, the moral of the story is that if you're pretty sure the target has a very very low chance of resisting your casting even at half your normal dice pool, doing the "semi-automatic" trick and firing off two spells at once might be useful.
mdynna
Interesting little fact: the minimum damage a Direct Combat Spell can do is Force + 1. Since the Magician needs at least 1 net hit for the spell to take affect at all so the damage will always be at least Force + 1.
Azralon
QUOTE (Azralon @ Feb 24 2006, 12:29 PM)
So, the moral of the story is that if you're pretty sure the target has a very very low chance of resisting your casting even at half your normal dice pool, doing the "semi-automatic" trick and firing off two spells at once might be useful.

Just to clarify and curb anyone's misconceptions or inclinations to jump on me:

Casting two spells at once is more like using two pistols at once than it is like pulling the trigger twice on a semi-automatic. Dual-wielding requires you to split your dice pool, while firing one gun per Simple Action does not split your pool.

So, when I said casting two simultaneous spells is likened unto shooting a semi-automatic, the metaphor was very loose and shouldn't be taken too seriously. smile.gif
Endgame50
QUOTE (Azralon)


So, when I said casting two simultaneous spells is likened unto shooting a semi-automatic, the metaphor was very loose and shouldn't be taken too seriously. smile.gif

And here I was, about to get a gas vent for my team's mage.
Azralon
QUOTE (Endgame50)
And here I was, about to get a gas vent for my team's mage.

Well, I've known some troll mages that coulda used them after a particularly large bowl of soychili.
Shrike30
Keep in mind, too, that guns have nifty little things they can do like autofire, which (combined with some venting) let you jack up the damage being done essentially for free. The ranged combat penalties apply to both equally. Firearms also have the added advantage of being able to fire through walls, with AR going a long way towards cancelling out some of the penalties for doing that.

Besides, after you cast a spell, you've got to either clean up your signature or use... whichever metamagic makes you harder to track, I don't remember the name. A gun you can strip down into it's 6 major components and discard all over town.
Azralon
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Feb 24 2006, 04:56 PM)
A gun you can strip down into it's 6 major components and discard all over town.

Oddly enough, when he became a liability that's exactly what we once did to our rigger.
TinkerGnome
QUOTE (Shrike30)
The ranged combat penalties apply to both equally.

To an extent, ranged combat penalties (especially visibility penalties) are worse on mages since they have to rely on natural, optical, and cybernetic vision mods. Mundanes and even shooty adepts get to use those nifty contacts and goggles to give them every vision mode imaginable.
Shrike30
Asides from having no essence loss, and the option of magesight goggles, is there anything a set of goggles can do that your cybereye can't?
TinkerGnome
Well, for mages, the essence loss is the big deal.
Brahm
QUOTE (Shrike30)
Asides from having no essence loss, and the option of magesight goggles, is there anything a set of goggles can do that your cybereye can't?

It is a fairly casual thing to remove them and leave them at home. Not so much with cybereyes.
Azralon
I dunno, I suppose if you bought two sets of optical drones (one with legal enhancements, one the smartlink) then you can have modular eyeballs.
TinkerGnome
Hmm... casting spells through optical drones.

Note: There's no way I'd allow it as a GM, but it'd be funny (and completely broken) if it did work.
Thanee
That's not optical vision. wink.gif

Bye
Thanee
Zen Shooter01
Moon-Hawk, where did you get your sig?
Endgame50
There's the smallish benefit of being able to cram all the upgrades into your eyes, while the availability will cap the number of systems you can put on one visual piece. It also takes up a subscription slot for your PAN--and may or may not have DNI control. Mostly for me it's the cool factor of always having it--as someone who wears contacts and glasses, you get used to either, but I'd much much prefer not having to use them.
Shrike30
And a solid blow to the face or pulling some dumb stunt like clinging to the outside of a bullet train (and, come on, these are shadowrunners we're talking about here) is a good way to lose your glasses or get your contacts knocked around.
Azralon
QUOTE (TinkerGnome)
Hmm... casting spells through optical drones.

Note: There's no way I'd allow it as a GM, but it'd be funny (and completely broken) if it did work.

Heh. It does make for a sticky problem from a rules-mechanic standpoint. You paid for those eyes via Essence, so they should work. However, they're not part of your "aural whole" when they're separated, so it shouldn't work.

Aside from the obvious imbalance issues, of course, which easily negate the possibility. smile.gif
Cold-Dragon
lol, that's creative, but I think I can see the in came way of it not working.

You paid the essence to modify your eye to have a drone, so while it's your eye, you can use the spells through them with old fashion LOS, but once the drone departs, it is working as a machine now - a separate entity from your body. It is no longer your sensory organ, it's your mechanical eye in the sky (yay, punnish).

So, if you send it out, it's very nature keeps you from sending a spell through it.

just my two nuyen - I wasted a whole 27 on this certified credstick..

- - -

Oh sure, be faster than me Azra, hehe. wink.gif
CeaDawg
QUOTE (TinkerGnome)
Hmm... casting spells through optical drones.

Note: There's no way I'd allow it as a GM, but it'd be funny (and completely broken) if it did work.

Well, there are "tethered" drones from old world technology (1990 - 2006) that use fiber optic imaging systems. LOS through FO cable/image systems is already allowed ( the SB on corp sec., I don't have with me at the moment). I can see some security systems having FO jacks for drones to plug into at various points along their patrol routes, allowing the sec mage to "do 'is thang".
mfb
indeed. it's just an extension of the Prometheus system.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
Moon-Hawk, where did you get your sig?

It's from Stephen King's Dark Tower series. It is the mantra of the gunslinger.
I had to edit it to fit in the sig, the full version is:
I do not aim with my hand.
He who aims with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I aim with my Eye.
I do not shoot with my hand.
He who shoots with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I shoot with my Mind.
I do not kill with my hand.
He who kills with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I kill with my Heart.

The main character is a "gunslinger" from this alternate post-apocalyptic world. He's basically a gun-adept. Great series. I highly recommend it.
Azralon
QUOTE (Cold-Dragon)
You paid the essence to modify your eye to have a drone, so while it's your eye, you can use the spells through them with old fashion LOS, but once the drone departs, it is working as a machine now - a separate entity from your body.

That's pretty much what I said, yep.
Moon-Hawk
I agree. When pressed, I wave my hands and mutter something about the aura.
Thanee
That's not really necessary. The drone is not paid for in Essence. It has no Essence cost. It's not really a part of your body, it just happens to fit into the frame of your eyeball (similar to stuff put into a finger compartment). wink.gif

Bye
Thanee
fool
to get back to the multiple spells on one person question, my players and I were talking about it and came up with the house rule that the actual force didn't increase (i.e. 2 force 4 spells were still force 4) but that the maximum number of success did (so you couuld possibly have 8 successes.) this was more relevant in the case of clearing a room full of enemies using overlapping stun ball spells.
Thanee
Wouldn't you just resolve the two spells independantly?

Bye
Thanee
fool
the idea was to limit a spell caster from being able to cast two force 4 spells in one spot and do a min of 8 dv... the magical theory being that the damag doesn't stack.
Azralon
Actually, two Force4's would have a minimum of 10DV. You need to have at least one net hit against the target, which would stage each spell's damage up by at least one.

And you need to resolve each spell independantly, with the split dice pools. As previously mentioned that means that each spell is much more likely to be resisted and its damage negated altogether.
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