First, some concepts need to be firmly established that are implied but not explicitly stated in the SR4 core rulebook.
1. Every Commlink has only one Persona and that Persona is permanently connected to that Commlink (it is “burned” into the MPCP chips - to use the old terminology)
2. A user (Hacker) can only focus his “consciousness” on 1 location of 1 Persona at a time. Any other “instances” of any other Personas the user is controlling are sitting idle.
3. Agents and “Utilities” are the only programs that can “piggy back” into a system with a Persona. Other Persona programs can not.
4. (This one I created) Shifting your “mental perception” between active Commlinks is a Complex Action. Eg. “Moving” from your cyberware Commlink to your external Commlink connected through Datajack or Trodes. Working a second Commlink in AR mode while another is in VR mode incurs the normal penalty for taking “meat” actions while in VR.
The results of these rules are as follows. If a Hacker wishes to bring multiple Commlink Personas into a host, each Persona/Commlink must hack into the system independently. That means if you hack into a system with Commlink A, then want to bring in the Persona from Commlink B, the Hacker will need break through the Firewall all over again using the attributes and programs present on Commlink B. Meanwhile Persona A, present in the system, would be sitting idle and vulnerable to attack. Subject to your GM’s approval, the Hacker could break in using Persona A and validate a user account that Persona B could use to log on.
Secondly, Matrix damage done to Persona A does not carry over to Persona B, their CM’s are tracked separately. However, any “Black” attacks made to any Persona connected to a Hacker through DNI will damage the Hacker’s “person” regardless of whether they are “controlling” that Persona at the time.
Thirdly, given the permanent link between a Persona and its originating Commlink there is no way to avoid being traced. Given enough time and enough hits, any trace will eventually find its way back to your Commlink. That means that, unless you have a really long datajack cable or a big stick to hit the buttons on your Commlink with, your physical location can be determined. Using Commlink A to log into Commlink B and then hack a system does nothing. Either Persona A will leave a copy of itself in Commlink B, or Persona A will leave Commlink B. You can use a standard Redirect action to “route” Commlink A’s “call” through Commlink B but this should be handled exactly like any other Redirect action. The final point is: there is no way to make a “call” coming from a Commlink untraceable.
Does anyone have anything else to add?
Full Version: Multi-Commlink Hacking Rules
| QUOTE |
| 2. A user (Hacker) can only focus his “consciousness” on 1 location of 1 Persona at a time. Any other “instances” of any other Personas the user is controlling are sitting idle. |
This isn't necessarily true. For example, the end of page 217/beginning of page 218 discusses setting Analyze to run independantly and report back to you; similarly, agents can be given orders, even when attached to your persona. And immediately following, on page 218, it says that your other icons can defend themselves using just their program ratings (skills don't apply unless it's the one you're focused on)... But the icon can still act, or react.
| QUOTE |
| 4. (This one I created) Shifting your “mental perception” between active Commlinks is a Complex Action. Eg. “Moving” from your cyberware Commlink to your external Commlink connected through Datajack or Trodes. Working a second Commlink in AR mode while another is in VR mode incurs the normal penalty for taking “meat” actions while in VR. |
On page 218, it says there's no penalty for switching attention between nodes. The complex action sounds like a penalty, contradicting that rule.
| QUOTE (mdynna @ Mar 2 2006, 11:02 PM) |
| Thirdly, given the permanent link between a Persona and its originating Commlink there is no way to avoid being traced. Given enough time and enough hits, any trace will eventually find its way back to your Commlink. That means that, unless you have a really long datajack cable or a big stick to hit the buttons on your Commlink with, your physical location can be determined. Using Commlink A to log into Commlink B and then hack a system does nothing. Either Persona A will leave a copy of itself in Commlink B, or Persona A will leave Commlink B. You can use a standard Redirect action to “route” Commlink A’s “call” through Commlink B but this should be handled exactly like any other Redirect action. The final point is: there is no way to make a “call” coming from a Commlink untraceable. Does anyone have anything else to add? |
That part is quite logical since you don’t actually hack with your commlink, you hack with your persona. The commlinks are just the node/tool you use and no matter how many nodes you jump through you can always be traced by a trace action, unless you make a spoof.
Otherwise NO-ONE would be traceable since you would most of the time ALWAYS be hacking through multiple nodes when you hack across the world from Seattle to China and then to Russian and FINALLY back to Seattle to hack into the corporate node of your choice. The only thing such a tactic would do would be to buy time for you to spoof your tracks.
Still, there is no stopping an inventive player/character from using multiple commlinks (one "firewall" and one "hacking") since that is basically a private tiered network, and if corporations could do it why wouldn't runners do it on a smaller scale?
| QUOTE (The Jopp @ Mar 3 2006, 01:46 PM) |
| Otherwise NO-ONE would be traceable since you would most of the time ALWAYS be hacking through multiple nodes when you hack across the world from Seattle to China and then to Russian and FINALLY back to Seattle to hack into the corporate node of your choice. The only thing such a tactic would do would be to buy time for you to spoof your tracks. |
When only one of those Nodes does neither grant Open Access nor Log Files, thus acting as an Anonymizer, you are pretty much untraceable.
In SR4, this is even easier to do than in SR3 - just compromize some Nodes.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
When only one of those Nodes does neither grant Open Access nor Log Files, thus acting as an Anonymizer, you are pretty much untraceable. In SR4, this is even easier to do than in SR3 - just compromize some Nodes. |
Well...does that mean that the tracer have to hack said node and initiate a new trace from the newly hacked node then?
Exactly... or request it.
| QUOTE (neko128) |
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| QUOTE (neko128) |
| This isn't necessarily true. For example, the end of page 217/beginning of page 218 discusses setting Analyze to run independantly and report back to you; similarly, agents can be given orders, even when attached to your persona. And immediately following, on page 218, it says that your other icons can defend themselves using just their program ratings (skills don't apply unless it's the one you're focused on)... But the icon can still act, or react. |
Of course Agents can run independently, and programs still continue to function (you would still get Armor dice if attacked) but the Persona itself cannot take any actions while you are not "concentrating" through that Commlink.
| QUOTE (neko128) |
| On page 218, it says there's no penalty for switching attention between nodes. The complex action sounds like a penalty, contradicting that rule. |
I know that, but I wasn't talking about one Persona in multiple nodes, I was talking about moving your attention from one Commlink to another, from one Persona to another.
Also, yes its a penalty because I don't think multi-Commlink Hacking was ever intended in the RAW. I'm trying to cut down on it. Players are getting around subscription list limits, and simultaneous running program limits (Responce decrease) by running 3 or 4 Commlinks each running a different set of programs, all logged in to one node at once. If there is no penalty for switching between them and that switch is "instant" they can (with not a lot of resource investment) be running every program at rating 6 and several agents because they are hacking into a system with a half-dozen or so Commlinks at the same time. This seems like a "break" in the rules to me, its "rules lawyering" or "legal loopholing" whatever you want to call it. I'm not allowing my Hackers to run a (theoretically) infinite number of Programs and Agents without penalty.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
When only one of those Nodes does neither grant Open Access nor Log Files, thus acting as an Anonymizer, you are pretty much untraceable. In SR4, this is even easier to do than in SR3 - just compromize some Nodes. |
I don't really see that according to the rules. As far as I read it, when you are Traced they always Trace you back to whatever Commlink the Persona belongs to. Now, if you have your multiple Commlinks set up in their own little network where an enemy Hacker has to get through your "Firewall" 'link before getting to your Hacking one, fine I don't have a problem with that. My point is: there is no way stop the trace from eventually getting back to your original Commlink.
| QUOTE (mdynna) |
| Also, yes its a penalty because I don't think multi-Commlink Hacking was ever intended in the RAW. I'm trying to cut down on it. Players are getting around subscription list limits, and simultaneous running program limits (Responce decrease) by running 3 or 4 Commlinks each running a different set of programs, all logged in to one node at once. |
There IS a drawback by using multiple commlinks. Yes, you CAN become a supercarrier of active programs with say 10 nodes and 10 commlinks and an arsenal of agents and programs but here's the evil part:
1. If attacked you may ONLY use program rating and not your skill, thats a 50% reduction in Dice for a tooled up hacker.
2. You may only defend yourself in the node you occupy.
3. Cost 10-14K per commlink...
4. Odd looks "Say Ed, what's that mountain of commlinks doing?"
So if they attack you in the four nodes you are NOT occupying then you'r sailing down shit creek. Yea, you might have agents running to defend you but with a good stealth program they can have their own agents make a sneak attack on you directly in several nodes before your agents manage to succeed.
And remember, what a player can do, a GM can do worse.
Personally I find that using multiple commlinks for having a different set of programs is a smart thing considering how long it takes to upload new programs and such, it takes some time to load up combat programs and shut down hacking programs.
Besides, we need a FAQ and clarification on the whole response decrease issue...
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| Personally I find that using multiple commlinks for having a different set of programs is a smart thing considering how long it takes to upload new programs and such, it takes some time to load up combat programs and shut down hacking programs. |
See, I saw the time it takes to shut down and re-load programs as part of the "life" of being a Hacker. Its a strategy: you have to balance your load of Utility programs vs. Combat programs based on need and how much you're counting on being caught. Using another Commlink to "get around" this is a "break" in the rules in my opinion.
However, if you have to:
1. Hack in with your "Combat" Commlink and your "Utility" Commlink separately
2. Spend one Complex Action to "switch" from your Utility 'Link to your Combat 'Link
Don't you think that's a fair trade-off rather than swapping out all those programs on one Commlink?
| QUOTE (mdynna) |
| See, I saw the time it takes to shut down and re-load programs as part of the "life" of being a Hacker. Its a strategy: you have to balance your load of Utility programs vs. Combat programs based on need and how much you're counting on being caught. Using another Commlink to "get around" this is a "break" in the rules in my opinion. However, if you have to: 1. Hack in with your "Combat" Commlink and your "Utility" Commlink separately 2. Spend one Complex Action to "switch" from your Utility 'Link to your Combat 'Link Don't you think that's a fair trade-off rather than swapping out all those programs on one Commlink? |
True, it is the life of a hacker but having a two commlinks IS a way around it, and I doubt that most regular joe would spend two middle lifestyles per commlink and having four or more of them so this will be limited to THE hacker and not the two-bit ones. I do find it a bit excessive to have more than two commlinks though (apart from the "legal" one you show to the public).
But you you must still wait until your turn if you are attacked while in the "wrong" node, thus giving the enemies a chance to attack you. There is no way in hell i'd allow someone to switch commlinks the moment they are attacked, even if it is a free action it will have to wait until it is their turn, thus they will be attacked without the defense of their combat programs. When it is their turn they can use a free action to switch node and then attack/defend/flee etc.
As long as you and your players realize and agree that overrides the normal rules for Free Actions.
Well, there is a slight problem with the rules since you can switch nodes at any time AND get attacked while in another node, thus basically removing the threat of being attacked in another node since ou can switch node instantly and without penalty.
The only way they would get a chance to switch node should be in initiative order since an attack instantly turns normal gameplay into a test for initiative, and therefore it SHOULD be done in initiative order.
The only way they would get a chance to switch node should be in initiative order since an attack instantly turns normal gameplay into a test for initiative, and therefore it SHOULD be done in initiative order.
| QUOTE (mdynna) |
| I don't really see that according to the rules. |
True, the rules assume the normal case ('open' matrix relays) when following "current connections node-by-node all the way back to the source".
| QUOTE (mdynna) |
| Now, if you have your multiple Commlinks set up in their own little network where an enemy Hacker has to get through your "Firewall" 'link before getting to your Hacking one, fine I don't have a problem with that. |
That wouldn't protect against traceing you (as you carry both commlinks arround), too.
| QUOTE (mdynna) |
| there is no way stop the trace from eventually getting back to your original Commlink. |
Every security eventually fails. If you manage to sever the connection through the Anonymizer Nodes before that happens, on the other hand, you are free to go.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
That wouldn't protect against traceing you (as you carry both commlinks arround), too. |
That was my point!
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| Well, there is a slight problem with the rules since you can switch nodes at any time AND get attacked while in another node, thus basically removing the threat of being attacked in another node since ou can switch node instantly and without penalty. |
page 232 says you roll initiative once for all concurrent combats, and that you can only focus your attention on one combat at a time, which you need to designate at the start of the initiative pass. You can't defend against attacks made in other nodes for that pass even if you declare full defense.
Basically it's like getting jumped by two guys, and turning your back on one of them.
If you really fast, you can get them both before they kill you, but if there's a lot of them...you're SOL.
That's what Agents are for, though. It's safe to say that they'd defend their own Persona and Icons automatically, and they can coordinate with other agents to launch a massive Teamwork hacking test.
They can, if they subscribe each other... and are ordered to:
Pilots won't do a thing without orders.
Teamwork Tests are pretty useless if hacking on the fly, though - every time a test is made, the Node gets it's free detection test.
Pilots won't do a thing without orders.
Teamwork Tests are pretty useless if hacking on the fly, though - every time a test is made, the Node gets it's free detection test.
| QUOTE |
| Pilots won't do a thing without orders. |
Not true. Pilots are "adaptive" and "autonomous", which means it has to make decisions all on its own. A pilot is certainly smart enough to dodge an attack, even if it's not specified in the primary orders (p 161, it gets Pilot + Handling automatically to dodge). It also gets Pilot + Response to make "common sense" decisions, like the fact that the attacking decker will tear it apart if it doesn't kill him first. (p214).
Known - those are reactions triggered by predefined orders, and not exactly my point:
Unless told anything, a Pilot won't wander off, trying it's best at being useful.
Unless told anything, a Pilot won't wander off, trying it's best at being useful.
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