Spirits have Edge. How do they use it?

More importantly, would spirits use Edge to resist Binding?

Can magicians order their spirits to use Edge in some way?

Bye
Thanee

boy that would really suck to have your binding resisted with edge, making it nearly inpossible to bind anything over a force 2 spirit. Even a really good well balanced starting mage is going to have a hard time getting better than a force 4 spirit bound

Well, it's not like the mage cannot use Edge, too.

A fairly good starting mage can have 5 Magic + 4 Skill + 2 Specialization + 2 Mentor Spirit + 2 Focus = 15 dice -> 5 hits + 10 more dice -> 8 hits

A force 5 spirit would have 2x5 Force + 5 Edge = 15 dice -> 5 hits + 2~3 dice -> 6 hits

Of course, that's only for the one spirit type with a specialization and a Mentor Spirit bonus... if any.

Bye
Thanee

There aren't any rules for it, but as a GM, I'd only apply Edge dice to summoning/binding opposition rolls in certain rare circumstances. If the player were trying to bind a spirit he'd previously mistreated (like making the fire elemental get wet), that'd apply. Also any time the spirit was covered by Spirit Bane from the player would apply.

Aside from that, the drain on those rolls goes from brutal to insane if you allow the spirit to use edge.

Ultimately, spirit edge is for whe the spirit gets angry for a definite cause - being slighted, bound by a mage happy to harass his power (provided there was a history), bane issues, and in the case of higher up spirits, I would say any summoning mage that doesn't make sure they're summoning for a good reason. Even more so with binding in that case! As powerful as spirits are, you can treat them as demi gods in question of their attitudes.

but that's just my 27 nuyen - 2 for the tip and 25 for the certified credstick.

So shouldn't the opposite be true? If you bind them in a place that's nice for them, like summoning a water spirit in a giant vat of pure water, or a fire spirit in over a gigantic smelting fire, shouldn't you get a few dice as bonus while at the same time negating the spirit's use of Edge?

Not necessarily, but if a player made a habit of acts of kindness toward one particular type of spirit, I'd let him buy Spirit Affinity at some point. Hell, if it was a long term game where he did it a lot, then I'd probably just give it to him.

Does Spirit Affinity give any bonuses?

Uhm, the Spirit can use Edge only once in that test - either for a reroll, or the full 5 dice.

Whoops! Please ignore me after noting my sig.

At least I know what you meant now.

Bye
Thanee

Would a spirit use edge to resist banishing? I heard that it not only disrupts the spirit but also makes it weaker.

In order to make conjuring and binding possible I would say that a spirit will never use edge to resist conjuring unless you have the spirit bane flaw, and will not use edge to resist binding unless you have either treated bound spirits badly (in witch case it should not happen every time) in the past or have the spirit bane flaw.

Remember the spirit will often have more edge than the sumoner. Jaggy bastads that they are. Force edge will hurt.

As for using edge to help the summoner, it is at the spirits discretion but if you treat it well it will do its best for you.

Edward

Would the spirit use edge to save its own life or to avoid being disrupted?

To save it's life, definitely. To avoid being disrupted, maybe not. Like almost everything when trying to decide "would X do Y" it depends on the situation. An abused spirit would look forward to being banished. If the spirit has been summoned to help do something it would want to do (like a nature spirit defending a forest), then yeah.

What if it's a fire spirit sent to burninate gangsters, and it's high enough force to easily be immune to any sort of gunfire?

I wouldn't think so. First, fire spirits aren't necessarily gleeful killers. Second, if they can't hurt it there's no need to spend edge offensively. If it's high force it's probably got a strong willpower, meaning it won't like being forced into servitude.

I'd never have a spirit willfully not resist being banished except under rare circumstance, but it would also take rare circumstances for it to use edge to reist being banished as well.

What if in your game, banishing permanently reduces the spirit's force? I thought that it did that; I've heard it said on these boards.

I would be careful letting a spirit use Edge against conjuring skills, except for the special circumstances that there seems to be a consensus on (mistreated spirit being bound, spirit bane flaw, etc.). Everyone seems to agree on this... it feels unnatural, somehow. Is this really Dumpshock?


I would not let a magician command a spirit to use Edge - Edge is a metagame concept that would have no meaning to the actual characters in the game.

"I command you to attack those security guards, and, um, I want you to be really lucky when you do it! Yeah!"

Don't think so.

Spirits should use Edge as they see fit - another reason to treat them nicely. A resentful spirit will just sulk and do the minimum that it can, while a helpful spirit will generously spend Edge on the tasks that it is performing.

Does disrupting a spirit or banishing it harm it permanently? I've heard that it does. If so, pretty much every spirit will resist it...

Disrupting it frees it from any remaining services and sends it back to its home plane. A banished spirit "seeks to depart on its next action" with no mention of being harmed. Unless I'm missing something Spell Binding is the only way to permanently hurt a summoned spirit.

I thought in earlier editions such disruptions permanently hurt the spirit.

Maybe, I don't have any older books anywhere near me to check. But in SR4 it definitely doesn't hurt the spirit. In fact, if it didn't want to be there in the first place it actually helps it by freeing it from servitude and giving it an all expenses paid trip home.

I had enough issues with spirit Edge IMG that I just said "Hey, critters don't get Edge." Made life a lot easier.

I've got a player who likes to summon Force 10 spirits. One of these days I'm going to roll well, and he's going to die.

p|-|34R 73|-| 20 drain!

Using Edge on Banishing Resistance is ridiculous from a mechanical point of view. It's way too hard even without that already.

It might probably be best to leave Edge for PCs and major NPCs (Dragons, Arch-Enemies, etc).

In any case, NPCs should use Edge only in very special circumstances (it would maybe be ok, if Edge was used against a Conjuring attempt, if the mage treats spirits badly, or maybe if the mage has spirit bane; I would definitely not give mages with spirit affinity an edge (uhh ) here, when it comes to spending Edge for the spirit, though, that's just too easily abused).

As for using Edge *for* the Summoner, I would allow it for an extra service spent (for using Edge once), I think.

Bye
Thanee

How is banishing hard in general? It's just one drain per success on the spirit's test, and you get magic+skill versus 1x force.

It's twice the hits, actually.

And did you ever try to banish a bound spirit? That can get really ugly.

Using the same drain as for summoning/binding effectively is way too much.

It makes sense to have a high drain for binding, because that is done in a controlled environment, and when there is no chance to end up with more than ~9 boxes of drain, there is no risk involved at all. But banishing is usually done during combat... risking such a serious injury, just to lower the force of a spirit by a few notches... yeah, right!

You are always better off just casting another stun bolt (which does not have the potential to knock you out from the drain).

Bye
Thanee

In some ways that's better. Against higher force spirits you'll sometimes need just one net success. Unless they're bound they'll have to be around force 9 to have the same dice as the lower end of typical shadowrunner mages (5 magic + 4 skill). If they're bound you could be in trouble.

I'd suggest assensing a spirit before you try to banish it. The assensing table doessn't give thresholds for finding out information on spirits beyond their force, but I'd let 4 successes tell you how many servies they owe and if they're bound. 5 would tell you the magic rating of their summoner.