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Slamm-O
I was looking at the drones in rigger 3, and besides their laughably low availibility, i noticed that a number of drones have godlike armor.

for instance, the ares sentinal and p series drones each have 12.
the doberman, which is like the least armored drone, has 6
lonestar americars only have like 2
dragons only have 8!

here is my problem, armored drones as they are are too hard to kill, so i was wondering, do they really follow vehicle rules to a tee? i.e. stage down divide by half then compare to see if it passes the hardened armor? or do they not stage down and divide by two? or are they not hardened?

now if they dont have vehicle dividing and such, arent most drones sitting ducks? with only 2 body and no dodge pool?

please tell me if drones use vehicle armor and hardened armor rules. Please cite page numbers. thank you.
Kagetenshi
They do. I personally think it's because they're small and heavily-armored, so it's hard to get a good shot in on them. When the bullet actually goes in rather than pinging off the armor, though, it destroys them right quick.

~J
John Campbell
I actually think the problem is with the vehicle damage rules in general. With the low Bodies vehicles get and the degree to which vehicle armor simply ignores fire, I've found that when you shoot basically any vehicle, it will either ping off ineffectually, or completely destroy the vehicle; very seldom anything in between. Riggers offset this effect somewhat, because they can use their pool to help the vehicle soak damage, but otherwise it's pretty binary. I suppose this might be considered cinematic, but I think it's mostly just broken. I'd rather have battered vehicles limping away from a fight than vehicles exploding the first time a bullet penetrates.
Kagetenshi
Once you actually manage to hit anything of importance, you're usually damaging a vehicle beyond its ability to function. For instance, if I'm firing into the hood of a car, if I penetrate the hood odds are I'm going to stop it from working within two or three shots, one if I get lucky.

~J
The White Dwarf
nt
Kagetenshi
If you toss a sniper rifle onto a Lone Star Strato-9, sick, sick things can ensue.

~J
Viewer666
Kagetenshi your talking about shooting into the hood of an unarmored car. Try doing that with armored one, odds are it's going to take you more than 3 rounds if you can even hurt it.

White Dwarf what weapons out there (not using AV rounds) are going to take out a Steel Lynx? With 10 points of armor they can wade through any non AV weapon. I think that's where the issue is. It's the issue that was stated above, you either scratch it or kill it.

One good weapon combo is a Doberman with a sniper rifle or one of those balloons with a sniper rifle. Set them off some 900m (under their max range) and let fly. Sure they donít' hit all that often, but they can't be hit with most toys that a runner can use in the field either.
TinkerGnome
QUOTE (Viewer666)
One good weapon combo is a Doberman with a sniper rifle or one of those balloons with a sniper rifle. Set them off some 900m (under their max range) and let fly. Sure they donít' hit all that often, but they can't be hit with most toys that a runner can use in the field either.

They don't? A good sniper drone has some decent image magnification and if the rigger is controlling it, you're probably looking at a dead target every round. It's not like he needs to keep control or combat pool in reserve for evading attacks or anything.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Viewer666)
Kagetenshi your talking about shooting into the hood of an unarmored car. Try doing that with armored one, odds are it's going to take you more than 3 rounds if you can even hurt it.

But the same principle applies. With an armored car, the first shot that penetrates has a fair chance of destroying the car, and the second or third almost certainly will.

~J
The White Dwarf
nt
Cray74
QUOTE ("Slammo-O")
here is my problem, armored drones as they are are too hard to kill, so i was wondering, do they really follow vehicle rules to a tee?


Yup.

But read what White Dwarf said. I second all that.
Viewer666
Tinkergnone, that's right they don't. If a rigger is controlling a drone they use sensors right? By using sensors you have to spot your target and be able to engage. If that target is in the city with they receive a +4tn modifier to hit.

Kagetenshi, I never said otherwise.

WhiteDwarf, bod two drones are pretty small and can easily mounted in the back of a van. For that matter you can armor a skimmer for next to nothing and put that in the back of car it's so small. So yea a steel lynx, would make for a better back up team than two trolls and be smaller than one dwarf. A crawler can do most of what you've just tried to nay say. It can go into buildings, go up stairs, etc. Even if it can't, a skimmer sure as hell can. If you have problems with the size of drones, write to someone. In my book it still says BOD 2 and bod 2 drones have a listed size (which isn't that large). Failing that you can always build a small fuelcell vectored thrust uav, skimmer, etc. Small, overly armored, easy to move, easy to get around with, quiet, etc. You stay by the rules and call bullshit when you see one you like.
Kagetenshi
No, but you seemed to be trying to say that my example was invalid. If not, why the response?

~J
TinkerGnome
QUOTE (Viewer666)
Tinkergnone, that's right they don't. If a rigger is controlling a drone they use sensors right? By using sensors you have to spot your target and be able to engage. If that target is in the city with they receive a +4tn modifier to hit.

Err... no. You're thinking of sensor based gunnery. I wouldn't bother with it in a city setting unless I had loads of time. With time, you just have to aquire the target with a (hard) sensors roll and then you get to add half of your sensor rating as dice to the attack.

Without the time for that, you've just got to find 'em with the camera and BANG.
snowRaven
Never mind the Steel Lynx - runners are more likely to encounter Ares Guardians, and at armor 12 even AV rounds will have a tough time against it unless you are using sniper rifles or MGgs/HMGs...
Kagetenshi
Or a shotgun, or a sport rifle, or an assault rifle, or even a heavy pistol if you've got a GM who doesn't forbid AV rounds in them. It doesn't matter if the power ends up being 2 if the drone only has enough body to soak one level of damage.

~J
BitBasher
Let's not forget that fact that AV rounds are about damn near impossible to get, and grigging expensive. It's easier to find guided SAM's and other heavy ordinance than it is to fond AV ammo.
The White Dwarf
nt
TheScamp
QUOTE
WhiteDwarf, bod two drones are pretty small and can easily mounted in the back of a van.

Bod 2 crawlers are exactly the size that White Dwarf said; about the size of a motorcycle or a human lying prone on the ground. You're getting maybe one of those into the back of a van and not a hell of a lot else.
Kagetenshi
For a steel lynx, you'd toss the thing in the back of the rigger's van and then use it to cover your escape. On the defensive side it can fit most large hallways no problem, and if the things are being used for security you can bet they'll have put in ways for it to change floors (or they'll just have a bunch of the things). Think the security bot ports from Deus Ex.
I do say you ought to be able to fit two Steel Lynxes into the back of a van with little trouble. Nothing else, but they ought to fit IMO.

~J
The White Dwarf
nt
grimshear
You guys keep bringing up the poor maligned Steel-Lynx. To that I say this: find a copy of Fields of Fire (I think that's where it is anyway). The SL is on 4 independantly suspensioned "legs," and can draw itself up on them to about the height of a person.

Also, as to hiding it, a personal favorite is to dress it up like a cart or closed trolley. smile.gif This works best if you're infiltrating under cover of "Hi, I'm here to fix the (whatever)."

With the legs pulled in a bit and a nice little breakaway shell on top of it, it's about the size of a chest of tools.

As to it's armor... yes it's kind of silly. That's why I typically give it an Assault rifle with/and some form of grenade launcher. Even with IPE-HE, it can't hurt itself. smile.gif

Grim Shear
"Finer, Shminer!"
Viewer666
Tinker Gnome, how do you propose that a drone sees said targets?

Kagetenshi AV rounds aren't that common in any game I've been in. But you're right anything loading them is too powerful.

Whitedwarf, yea the size of a motorcycle. Are you really suggesting that the steel lynx is the shape of a motorcycle? I think that it has the same cubic footage, but it's displaced much much more. And to put a thought into your head. VEHICLE CUSTOMIZATION look in the rules, buy a base line skimmer and modify it. If you GM doesn't allow thatÖwell I'm sorry you play in vacuum of common sense and near Gestapo like control issues. Back to your question, do you really need 5 minutes to open a door and let a drone out? No. You simply open the door and let it out. Drone racks store drone for convenience, no one says you have to stuff it in a box. And depending on your run, situation, what have you, you may want that. From your tone you do stealth only missions where run off like gust in the street. That's fine for you isn't it, are you in the rest of the games WE ALL PLAY, nope. Some people like to toss dice for stealth, technical stuff, and combat.

The Scamp, vehicles are listed as rough sizes. Do you think that a steel lynx is the same size and shape as a person lying prone? Or you think it's same the cubic footage with a different set of dimensions? So it really could be 1m wide, 2 meters high and 2 meters long, but squarish, like in the picture. Plus what Grimshear said. People don't design things to be totally lame and unusable. They design them to be practical. Why make a security bot that can't get past most internal doors?
Kagetenshi
White Dwarf, if you tossed in little drone bays with doors into various points around the facility, the wageslaves would never see the things unless the alarm was triggered.
Also it would be decently easy for it to roll down a ramp, cover an escape, and then roll back up the ramp afterwards.

Viewer666, AV rounds aren't common in any game that doesn't have a Face with Good Reputation 2, Aptitude (Etiquette), and maybe some Tailored Pheremones. That's the nature of the beast. Nonetheless, if you manage to get them, they can be for just about any weapon and still have a decent chance of taking down a vehicle/drone in one shot.

~J
Lantzer
As cool as the Lynx is, I don't expect to see it very often. It's well-known that the availability of drones is messed up.

In my opinion, the Lynx and its flying twin brother are obviously Milspec drones. After all, look at the size, armor and weapons load. As such, the availability should be higher, and you should only see the buggers in locations where it makes sense that they have milspec security. You know, the same places that use Red Samuri for security guards, for example. As such, I don't have a problem with the armor being hardened (to return to the thread topic).

As for runners - if they manage to get their hands on milspec equipment, and are in a situation where they can use it, and think its desirable to do so, all power to them.


Now, to discuss the topic of: "Is it reasonable for vehicle armor to be hardened when they have such low body ratings...," Well, The system is designed so that machines have two main modes of operation: Working and Broke. There is a little space between them, but not a whole lot. This isn't so bad, in my opinion.

Why? When a vehicle takes damage, either something important gets busted or it doesn't. It's not like cars and trucks can 'tough it out'. If you want to make a vehicle tougher because it's _designed_ to be tougher than most machines its size, I suggest looking at a few of the design options (like ?redundant controls?) or simply give the thing more body than its size would indicate.

That way you could make something like an A-10 - It takes a lick'n and keeps on tick'n.
Viewer666
Prior to adding weapons, armor, and modifying the powerplant the little skimmer disk is not military.

The damage system being the way it is, if a vehicle and be hurt at all, it probably will be. Let's just take a nice even vehicle with a 4 BOD and 6 points of armor and call it an armored truck or armored car. Since damage from all weapons not using AV ammo has the power of the round dived by two and the damage level lowered by 1. So any weapon that has a power of doesn't do at least 13M damage is not going to touch it. Oddly enough that means heavy machine guns, 1 kg of c12, etc. Very few weapons will damage it. The Barrett 121 will, grenades up close, some lasers, assault cannon, etc. Since the minimum power of any weapon is 2, let's say the attack happens, hits with 2 successes, base damage of 14S. The vehicle resists damage at 2M, compare success, apply the damage. The weapon using AV rounds would have a base attack of 11S.

With the idea of the A10 you have an armored jet that is made to fly while damaged. By Shadowrun rules anything 8M base damage with AV rounds will take it down quite easily.
BitBasher
That's why I altered AV ammo in all weapons so that it was still dropped in wound level by one (It only makes a small hole, and is not explosive) but the vehicle still gets full armor aginst it. This works wonderful for not having armored vehicles explode when sneezed on. I also have vehicles roll body plus half armor (round up) to resist damage. On the other side of the coin vehicles tend to have a little less armor in my game because they have a max of body*3 or body*4 armor, I can't remember which off the top of my head, but I think it was 4.
TinkerGnome
QUOTE (Viewer666)
Tinker Gnome, how do you propose that a drone sees said targets?

I think you're confusing what I'm saying. I'm saying that a rigger in direct control of the drone does not need to make a sensors test to spot a target. It's called actively observing and relies on the camera feed he's getting. An actual "sensors test" relies on video recognition, radar, ultrasound, laser range-finders, etc. to spot targets by their signature.

The rigger looking through the cameras and using manual gunnery doesn't have much trouble opperating in an urban environment.
Viewer666
Huh and here I though that vision modifiers like range, sensor quality, etc all mattered for gunnery. Rating 1 sensors and rating 4 sensors have vastly different qualities. I could swear that I remember that resolution was an issue based the rating of the sensors.
TinkerGnome
QUOTE (Viewer666)
Huh and here I though that vision modifiers like range, sensor quality, etc all mattered for gunnery. Rating 1 sensors and rating 4 sensors have vastly different qualities. I could swear that I remember that resolution was an issue based the rating of the sensors.

Yeah, but you get a level of vision magnification for each level of sensor that you have. Within actual range, you shouldn't have any more difficulty finding a target with drone sensors than taking the shot with a scoped rifle over open terrain. Read the rules on manual gunner in SR3 on page 151 and 152. It doesn't mention anything about sensor modifiers. I've not seen anything mentioning resolution, either...

The only functional difference between rating 1 sensors and rating 10 sensors, as far as manual gunnery goes, is the vision magnification modifiers (SR3, p.110).

Sensor enhanced gunnery is something else.
The White Dwarf
nt
Viewer666
Tinkergnome I was referring the clarity of the image that different level of sensors would have.

Whitedwarf. No mater how you cut, it the same piece of cake. You're trying to argue semantics of the same issue. Both are in the rules and can be used. So what's the issue? So you're GM won't let you design a drone from scratch, BFD alter one in use already. Get over it. You're drawing straws to have some sort of argument. Besides that, you'd be saving money. Buying a security drone cost more than modifying one. It's all the same thing. The only difference is the level of shop you need to build it. Customization typically takes a small shop than a full build. But then you know that, don't you?

Also, I would never leave a drone in storage that I wanted to use for support. That's like letting your guards sleep on duty. You donít rack a drone you plan on using.

As to the rules, skimmers, etc. What's not to understand? You do the reading on a BOD 1 drone and figure out how much armor you put on it. Since you didn't already know that, I'm sure it's YOU who needs to be reading the rules.

And the last issue. I don't think my comment was out of line. You're the one who said your GM wouldn't let you design drones and you seem to insist that your game has any bearing on the rest of our games. And now you come back and try to say that because Lone Star will respond to an armored drone we shouldn't use them? Like they don't respond to a group of armed runners killing people, looting, and committing general mayhem? Suffice it to say we (we being the runners and GMs here) know that. We implement things as we normally do.

Now if you take offense at what I said, I'll tell you one thing and ask you another. First I'll tell you that you need to get thicker skin. Second, let me ask you something. If I said "I'm sorry for those bastards who drinking red wine, taking Tylenol 3, and dropping Fen-Phen for weight loss all at once and I wish them all the best in agonizing death." Would that bother you? No, I really doubt it would. Because it either applies to you and you know what's happening or it doesn't apply to you and you're reading into the comment.
Kagetenshi
Drones in a rack are not disassembled. The entire point of a rack is to keep them ready for rapid deployment, so you would most certainly rack a drone you were going to use for support.

~J
Viewer666
Compare putting a steel lynx in a rack and getting it ready to a steel lynx with a 4 point harness to the base of a van with a power line. Which is going to be read in less time? I'd say the steel lynx with the harness that's ready to go.
The White Dwarf
nt
Kagetenshi
QUOTE
Compare putting a steel lynx in a rack and getting it ready to a steel lynx with a 4 point harness to the base of a van with a power line.  Which is going to be read in less time?  I'd say the steel lynx with the harness that's ready to go.


The drone rack. Because, after all, a drone rack is a piece of gear that is specifically designed to hold drones for rapid deployment. It's the steel lynx in the drone rack that's ready to go, only you don't have to fumble around with the harnesses. Hell, you can deploy flyer drones out of a moving vehicle with those things.

~J
TinkerGnome
As near as I can tell, drone racks are meant for aerial deployment of drones. I think the Rigger 3 description even says as much. What, exactly, are you strapping to the steel lynx to get it airborne?
Viewer666
Whitedwarf:

Right dude, whatever. You must be right. I emphasize the must portion of that. I stated there was a difference, it's not huge. After all it's design and redesign. Like the difference between a Jetta and Jetta hooked up for street racing. The end result is pretty much the same, that is it's a Jetta that's been designed for a particular purpose. Did you know that you can customize during creation? So go ahead and speak in double talk, inflated statements, etc. The point is, you can use a drone for exactly what I said. You can use it as a support troops, you can use it as a massively armored flyer, etc. There are also 2 ways to get your drone up to that level of performance. You can find one you want, or you can make it. So give it a rest. You worse than Gray Davis, when the overall point is that you still lost. So feel free to argue one little point if that makes you feel better. I for one don't care in the slightest.

I'd like you clarify some points. First when did I say, "skimmers are worse" and not go into context? Second what does set up and break down time have to do with a drone that is already set up and ready to go? Third how is using an armored drone going to bring in LoneStar any more than a set of runners blasting away at one of the Corps? Forth, what examples are you trying to figure out? If you could mention that much, we'd be able to figure out what you're talking about. Lastly, is there some rule or set of rules you're unclear on? Or perhaps need explained? I really that you missing something here, at least about the BOD 1 drones and armor.

Suffice it to say that I'm positive that you'll continue on with what you feel is a valid point, you'll continue to state general comments that we've already stated and that you'll continue to try and hide facts to make it sound like you're making a good point. You' said as much already that you're not going to bring up points (however valid) that don't support you side. This is a game, not a court case. Now you go making veiled threats. Read what I typed, not what you want to read.




Well alrighty then.

Kagetenshi, according to my book the main use for a drone rack is launching flying drones. To add to that though, my point of a rapid deployment drone is still valid. I wasn't the one harping on about drone set up time. Which for the most part everyone agreed wasnít an issue for a rapid deployment drones.

I'm sure all but one of us is in agreement that you can use a drone for back up, you can set it to be ready in almost no time, you can use it for door to door combat (steel lynx and a skimmer at least), you don't have to worry about any weapons short of AV ones and massive damage non AV rockets and autocannons (over 20D). And that even if you GM won't allow you to DESIGN a good drone you can MODIFY to good enough. However that one person may have just been putting rules statements and may indeed agree with the above facts.
Game2BHappy
JFC. Stop feeding each other already. indifferent.gif

Set-up Breakdown time (pg. 62, R3):
It looks like this is the time needed to break it down for storage or reconfigure it after storage. A dissassembled drone only takes up 1/3 the normal CF for storage. Even if they are not "broken down", they need one Combat Turn to warm up.

Note: Reading the first paragraph of that section might suggest that the Set-Up time is required for "configuration" regardless of whether it was "broken down" or not. Check it out and decide for yourself.

Drone Rack (p.151, R3):
As was stated by T-Gnome-san, normal drone racks are for aerial vehicles. However, IMO, if your ground drone can't get in and out of the car on its own it could benefit from a drone rack or one of its many variants under the same name. I would definitely consider a device that holds a Steel Lynx to the underside of a van for quick release to be a drone rack.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (TinkerGnome @ Oct 10 2003, 08:18 AM)
What, exactly, are you strapping to the steel lynx to get it airborne?

Trust me, you don't want to know.
I didn't think it was aerial-only, but I'll check on that when I get back from class.

~J

[edit: answered later in thread. I stand corrected. Well, except for my flying steel lynx]
TinkerGnome
I do agree that you should be able to do something akin to a drone rack for launching wheeled drones, but it probably falls under either the special equipment heading (ramps, etc) or the extra entry/exit points heading (small drones droped from a "porthole" on the bottom for instance or the steel lynx rolling out of a "drone door" in the back of the van). The drone rack itself seems designed to launch the arial drones and move them about in a close-quarters hangar. Wheeled/tracked drones should be capable of doing most of that themselves.
The White Dwarf
Sigh, you still see it as right and wrong. Its not about some personal victory its about figuring out how SR works. Your editing of previous posts removed anything I could quote, aside from your recent post stating:
"the overall point is that you still lost. So feel free to argue one little point if that makes you feel better. I for one don't care in the slightest."
If you dont care why try to prove you won....

As Ive said before, if you claim something post an example, in this case of how this "tank skimmer" would work. The only listed skimmer in the pre-revised R3 has enough load to have armor 1. If you in fact meant "some flying drone" by the word skimmer, and not an actual skimmer, that opens the field. The Mini-Blimp can get up to armor 4ish. Some of the UAVs could get higher ratings, making them tankish, such as the Wajinda. However its also very expensive, meaning if it *does* get hit your out tons of cash, and also its profile as a jet affects its operation (ie it cant hover like a helicopter and fire every round). The Rotary wing UAVs such as the MCT Rotodrone can sustain heavier armor, but with the sensor rating and pilot ratings of 1 will not have much effect, and they dont have the space to support both sensors and weapons upgrades. Which leaves the VT UAVs as possible tanks. The Ares Guardian is the obvious choice, as its the only one that really has what it takes to be a tank: armor weapons sensors etc. It also costs 99k at creation, double that mid game. Also it has no setup/breakdown time. But it also brings even more issues than the Lynx to the table. As a VT vehicle it cant even be parked silently. Just turning it on to do anything at all will grab everyones attention. While perhaps more versatile in the role of "drone tank" its also even *more* likely to attract trouble, if thats possible.

What I meant about using the drone and drawing attention is that while gunfire will obivously get attention, pistols can be hidden and silenced. Runners can hide in the building, and use the Stealth skill outside. The drone has none of these advantages. Its obvious, big, and has no stealth. Just parking it outside can get you in more trouble if a cop simply looks at it than a group of 6 runners would walking down the street with 1mil in illegal cyber and decks under their trenchs. It adds a new dimension to "how can we do this without getting caught" because it offers such a little chance to move undetected.

I couldnt find many other drones that have the room to be modified to be used as such, in a way that avoids these kinds of issues. Which means that to employ a heavily armored drone you sacrifice a measure of anonymity. From most of what Ive read on these forums, that is enough alone to deter most from emplyoing them to use as such. Rather than making the case you cant do it (which other than the 2 listed drones you mostly cant, but that aside) Im trying to say that while its there to use, the role play context of the majority of runs prevents its use in a way thats unbalacing (due to high armor). The reason something like the Lynx or the Assualt Cannon can exist in game but not throw it out of whack with their obvious power is due to circumstances like this.

Thus, while the game mechanics of the drones seem very good, the difficulty of using one balances that out. If theres a situation or combination that shows otherwise, post it.
Kagetenshi
Mostly just covering an escape. Once you're on your way out, unless response time is amazingly fast, you no longer have to be quiet. You roll out the heavy drones, cut your teammates an extra doorway, and get out of there before anyone realizes quite what happened. There are other ways that drones can be used, too, which I'll go into if you really want me to, but the point that was being made was that these drones were unbalanced, which I can't agree with due to the limitations you mentioned, which, while extensive, aren't quite as bad as you make them out to be but are still more than enough to balance them.
*Gasps for air*

~J
The White Dwarf
Rofl *hands you oxygen mask*. True, depending on how you plan on getting the drones out they could be used for the "getaway" phase of the plan. I agree they have many uses, I just couldnt really come up with one that made use of the (not really) outrageous armor ratings. Perhaps using one for a distraction is an idea, but its something that will likley result in the team having to write off one tank-drone. Part of the equation depends on how easily the bad guys can track a drone I suppose. If they have AOD rounds on hand for excaping criminals and tag the drone with one, thats bad. Of if they have drones of their own, or watcher spirits to follow it. But if all they have is guys on foot there is little they could do against a flying drone, perhaps. Grid Guide might be an issue for trying to escape in a truck/van/car after picking up a hot drone, as it can track fairly well and is hard enough to hack to make it a consideration.
Viewer666
To everyone else:

Sorry about posting late, I've been busy to say the least.

White Dwarf:

It's no one fault but your own that you are sorely lacking in the knowledge required to keep up with the conversation. To help you though I'd have your reference the rules on armor. To start with, a BOD drone can mount a 1 point of armor for a mere 5kg (BODxBODx5). You load on 6 points of armor and now only AV weapons and anything packing 14+ power will be able to hurt said drone. With an engine modification you can get even more armor than that.

If you have any more valid questions be sure to post them.
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