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Malancthon
Salutations.

Shadowrun's always been My first love of RPGs. I first played her in 2nd edition about 10 years ago. Now a group of friends have been thinking of playing a 4th ed game, so I ran out and bought the book.

Oy.

Anyway, I'm trying to recreate a character concept I had in 3rd that I never got to play, a Battle Sorcerer (with a signature gunblade). In 3rd, it was easy: Make him an Aspected Mage (priority B), and 'uncommonly' high stats (Attributes as priority A). Worked wonderfully.

His old stats, if it helps any.
[ Spoiler ]


Trying to do the same for 4th ed has been... vexing, to say the least. The inability to have any high stats (at the cost of other abilities), the lack of an Aspected Mage without going gung-ho with defects are just beggining hurdles that have slowed Me down. I know he's going to be a mage of some sort, probably limited to just being a spellslinger. Sort of a Street Sam that uses Magic instead of Cyberware as his edge.

Can anyone help with chargen pointers to make My idea work? The chargen BP is 400.

Thanks in advance.
Malancthon
Going by the Char Conversion pdf over at Fanpro, his stats would be:

[ Spoiler ]


Before he was a never-say-die, just as comfortable with a grimoire as he is with a revolver-sword without generic stats.

Now, he's only slightly above average, without any stat deviating from each other... and he's overpriced (about 210 BP, if I've added it right). Oh, and before I forget, he's Human.

I've noticed that as a constant... when I've tried to buy stats for 4th ed characters, I generally go about 210-230 BP. Can Negative Qualities be used to go above the "half the BP" rule?

I think if I can just get his attributes to be what I want it to be, I can do the rest easily enough. It's just the attributes that throw a monkey wrench at Me.
Dissonance
Remember that magic and edge don't count towards the 200 BP. But, also, remember that a SR4 stat means more, per point, than a SR3 one.
Malancthon
Thanks, but I had caught that when I was trying to deconstruct some of the sample archetypes.

Maybe what was needed was a re-evaluation of what a stat is. In SR1-3, a 3 in a stat was 'average', but for SR4, a 2 sounds more like what a Joe-Schmoe would have.

But that's probably for another thread.
Azralon
SR3 starting characters seem to work out to about 500 BPs, give or take. SR4 starts everyone at more of a street level (400 BP) than previous editions, giving characters correspondingly more room to grow.

It's still quite possible to make very potent characters with 400 BPs, but you'd need to build in some weaknesses along the way. This kind of thinking can lead to a great deal of minmaxing, unless the campaign promises to support well-rounded characters sufficiently.

You'll notice that a SR4 starting character can easily be someone who's "slightly above average in most things and is pretty good in one or two things." I think that's what they were shooting for.
Malancthon
QUOTE (Azralon @ Mar 15 2006, 01:49 AM)
You'll notice that a SR4 starting character can easily be someone who's "slightly above average in most things and is pretty good in one or two things."  I think that's what they were shooting for.

Seems more like "average at most things" or "good at one or two things but bad in everything else" is the general starting character.

So, any suggestions as to what attributes I should shoot for for My Battle Sorcerer?
Ophis
Just a s warning 400 point characters are lower level runners than SR3 starting runners, 450 gives a similar level to SR3.

On the stats, Agility, Willpower and Edge my friend.
Cain
QUOTE (Malancthon)
QUOTE (Azralon @ Mar 15 2006, 01:49 AM)
You'll notice that a SR4 starting character can easily be someone who's "slightly above average in most things and is pretty good in one or two things."  I think that's what they were shooting for.

Seems more like "average at most things" or "good at one or two things but bad in everything else" is the general starting character.


You can actually minmax a character out who's really, really good at one thing and about average in everything else. You shouldn't end up with major weaknesses if you're planning it carefully.

QUOTE
So, any suggestions as to what attributes I should shoot for for My Battle Sorcerer?

Definitely Edge. A high Edge makes your character near invincible, if you use it carefully and sparingly.
Ryu
An attribute of "3" is still considered human average. The days of PCs being world class in most of their attributes are now gone - takes some "getting used to". Within a 400bp limit I would not want to spend more than 200bp on attributes and try to go for less.

What you could do is accept a point of magic loss and install muscle augmentation 2, a cerebral booster 2 and cybereyes 3. Gives you access to an integral smartlink, near-zero vision mods and 4 pts. of good attributes.
Cain
Another thing you might want to consider is going the Magician's Way "Mystic Adept" route. I know you were trying to avoid Flaws, but Incompetence: Summoning, Binding, and Banishing would be excellent choices within your character concept, and give you an extra 15 points to boot. You can use adept powers to shore up the weak stats, and specialize out your magic for spellcasting. You can also buy a power focus to offset some of the Magic difference, and get Spell foci to help with drain.
Brahm
Mystic Adept with Negative Qualities (3 if your GM is ok with it) on the Conjuring group is pretty close to an Aspected Sorcerer. You'll need to spend one of your Magic Points on Astral Perception if you want to see on the astral. You can then also take other Adept powers. Unfortunately it is likely, from 3rd party info gained by email, that by canon that Magic point doesn't count towards your casting in any way including determing maximum Spell Force. frown.gif

That is a real kick in the cajones for Mystic Adepts, so unless a lot more Adept powers with a small side order of casting is what you are looking for might want to stick with Magician. Especially if being able to Astral Project with a weapon focus gun blade is something that would fit the character. Go with the same Negative Qualities to simulate the Aspected nature.


On the Attributes, I concur that a standard SR3 character maps to about a 450BP SR4 character. See if your GM is ok with bringing up the BPs if that is the kind of campaign you want to run. Even bumping it up to 425BP makes somewhat of a difference. That would make that conversion set of Attributes legal. Although you are likely better off if you are coming in 10 or 20 BP below the Attribute ceiling.

I do find that the stats feel a bit bland if you aren't willing to drop one or two of them down to a 2 or perhaps even a 1. There is the table in SR4 that gives 3 as Average. That is a bit misleading, a 3 is more like the best stat of an Average person. All 3's is not what Joe Average has.

Also it takes a bit of getting use to seeing the smaller Skills coming from SR3. Keep in mind that a Skill 1 is now a good thing as opposed to a total waste.


Also, are you using one of the character creation programs or spreadsheets over on the Community forum? Likely a really good idea if you are playing around and tweaking a character.
Waltermandias
Ask your gamemaster if it's cool for you to go over the 200 point limit on attributes. That's how we generally handle it in my group, if someone really wants to get that extra point or two, we let 'em. No skin off of our collective noses.
Malancthon
QUOTE (Ryu)
What you could do is accept a point of magic loss and install muscle augmentation 2, a cerebral booster 2 and cybereyes 3. Gives you access to an integral smartlink, near-zero vision mods and 4 pts. of good attributes.


The idea is actually the other way around- a Street Sam that uses Magic instead of Cyberware. While probably this is a better way to build him, it's counter to the idea.

Besides, if I've read the book correctly, there isn't a couple of 'blank' essence values/ magic values. If I have a Magic of 4 and Essence of 6, then take Cyberware that costs 2 Essence, then My magic is brought down to 2 (4-2).

QUOTE (Cain)
Another thing you might want to consider is going the Magician's Way "Mystic Adept" route. I know you were trying to avoid Flaws, but Incompetence: Summoning, Binding, and Banishing would be excellent choices within your character concept, and give you an extra 15 points to boot. You can use adept powers to shore up the weak stats, and specialize out your magic for spellcasting. You can also buy a power focus to offset some of the Magic difference, and get Spell foci to help with drain.


It seems odd that most other systems say "try not to go wild with the flaws, you shouldn't need them except for maybe a few extra points", but in SR4, the mood is "take them! as much as you can! But since you'll need them all, you can only take 35 points! Sucker!", giving characters such personality quirks such as recovering BLT addict that before were just notes on a bio, not an extra 5 points squeezed out.

Anyway, looking at Mystic Way doesn't seem that great, unless I buy a full 6 points of Magic, spend 2 on Adept Powers, and the rest for spell skills. Dang, Astral Perception is expensive. Seems it should be worth 0.5, not a full 1.

QUOTE (Brahm)
by canon that Magic point doesn't count towards your casting in any way including determing maximum Spell Force.

That is a real kick in the cajones for Mystic Adepts, so unless a lot more Adept powers with a small side order of casting is what you are looking for might want to stick with Magician. Especially if being able to Astral Project with a weapon focus gun blade is something that would fit the character. Go with the same Negative Qualities to simulate the Aspected nature.


That's how I understood it from reading the book. I'll probably go with Full Magician, but haven't fully decided yet.

QUOTE (Brahm)
Also, are you using one of the character creation programs or spreadsheets over on the Community forum? Likely a really good idea if you are playing around and tweaking a character.


Like Cain, I'm a pen-and-paper guy. For almost any other RPG, I can jot down a few notes and get a good idea of what I want to do before finalizing it.

So, this is what I got for Stats so far.
[ Spoiler ]


I was hoping to have a Strength of 5, but I think I can boost that with an Increased Strength spell. I might even consider dropping Strength to 3 to raise Willpower to 5. Does the stats right now seem good? Should I drop or raise some of them? Or is it optimized badly and will be poor at being a Magical Street Sam?
Lagomorph
I made the mistake of converting my aspected mage into a mystic adept, I'd recommend against it. Though my background was a bit different, it ended up being much more costly than being a full mage and just not summoning. My beef was mostly with the cost of astral perception (which you mentioned). Once I had that and some cyber, he was at 4 magic from 6.

I think the stats you have are looking great. And I'll also second (or third or whatever) that an SR3 character needs ~475 points to convert properly.

It'll take some getting used to, but from having converted all of my 3rd ed characters over to 4th, your's is looking good so far.
stevebugge
Our group has been using the quick conversion method more than the full rebuild, we have a few house rule type additions. We have been granting Perception skill free at a rating equal to 2/3 of the SR3 intelligence rating. If the character had Astral Perception in SR3 we have done the same with the Assensing skill.
Brahm
QUOTE (Malancthon @ Mar 15 2006, 12:27 PM)
So, this is what I got for Stats so far.
[ Spoiler ]


I was hoping to have a Strength of 5, but I think I can boost that with an Increased Strength spell. I might even consider dropping Strength to 3 to raise Willpower to 5. Does the stats right now seem good? Should I drop or raise some of them? Or is it optimized badly and will be poor at being a Magical Street Sam?

Depending on how good a weapon this gun blade is I'd consider dropping Strength to 2 and leaving Will where it is. I know that sounds a bit goofy on the surface, but when using a melee weapon, especially if it is a lot of your base DV comes from you weapon and even more comes from your net hits if you are really good with the weapon. Melee damage is another one of those stupid divide by 2s that carried over. So Str 3 does the same damage as Str 2. wobble.gif

I guess it comes down to whether you are a mage that shoots, and then slices a bit too. Or if you are first and foremost a slicer.

At the very least drop Logic to 2. Right now you have already spent 200 BP on Attributes and you don't have any Magic or Edge yet. Here, give me about 10 minutes and I'll throw together an example Bladegun type character. To show you what it can look like.
Brahm
Flick
[ Spoiler ]


Gear
Sustaining Focus(Health), Force 3, Bonded - For sustaining Increase Reflexes at Threshold 3 (+2 Init, +2 IP)
Another 5,000 for weapon, armor, and commlink
You'll likely want to spend another point here to get a Fake ID
For the blade you are going custom anyway so see if the GM will let you use something between a Survival Knife and a Sword and set the damage code at DV:STR/2 +2 AP:-1

Notice that I only gave him 5 BP in Negative Qualities so far. You can bump that up. Sensitive System is an obvious choice for this guy, or perhaps the other two Skills in the Conjuring group. So spend another point on equipment and maybe even 6 points to make that gunblade a bonded Force 2 Weapon focus. If you take Sensitive System that'll leave you with another 8 points to put into a couple extra skills or a Skill + Loyalty 1 Fixer or maybe even one really good Contact if that is the type of game you GM runs.

EDIT

I also bought the Close Combat group. The character doesn't really need Clubs. So you could free up another 8 BP there by dropping Clubs and keeping Unarmed 4, Blades 4. He only needs Unarmed for when he is separated from his Beloved, but best that you count on that happening. Put that extra 8 points into a couple of Social Skills, which I haven't selected any of yet.

EDIT
Doh! Forgot to include a few spells. Beyond Improved Reflexes I'm not sure what you had in mind though. He also isn't much on the astral yet besides wacking things, and even that he's not particularly good at when Projecting because he doesn't have Astral Combat. He is a little low on mental attributes, and he could use a point in Assensing eventually.
Azralon
QUOTE (Lagomorph)
I made the mistake of converting my aspected mage into a mystic adept, I'd recommend against it. Though my background was a bit different, it ended up being much more costly than being a full mage and just not summoning. My beef was mostly with the cost of astral perception (which you mentioned). Once I had that and some cyber, he was at 4 magic from 6.

I had exactly the same thing happen to me. My old Sorcerer Adept with cybereyes started as a Mystic Adept with cybereyes, until I realized how much I was gimping myself.

It's much better to be a full Magician with Incomp in the 3 summoning skills.
Malancthon
QUOTE (Brahm)
Flick
[ Spoiler ]

Thank you very much~! Very helpful indeed~!

Strength on melee weapons is /2, rounded up. A 3 is better than 2 by one point, but a 4 is nets the same damage as 3. So, I shall drop the Strength to 3, but not to 2.

I found in Isle of Shadow Gunblade stats for SR3 that was the same as a Sword and a Revolver in one piece of gear. The only addition was the revolver got a +1 target modifier due to the extra weight of the blade/barrel. So, I'm guessing Str/2+3 for the sword part (since Katanas, Monoswords, and Swords all do the same damage now), and 6P for the Revolver, with a -1 die when using the Revolver part. I don't think I'm going to make it an FF8-style Gunblade (which actually fired no projectiles, the revolver bit fired a chamber to cause a vibroblade-like effect to inflict more damage).

Yeah, I'm looking at mostly self-buffing, slicing and shooting, and slinging a spell if needed (healing or some other drek to mess with others- chaos or somesuch).

For those familier with Final Fantasy 8, I was thinking of making a custom spell called Renzokuken. In SR3, I was thinking of it giving the character (Ashe Lyonheart) a number of immediate attacks against a single enemy with a melee weapon as successes. With the changes in combat and magic, I'm not sure how to translate such a spell into SR4. It might've been too powerful anyway...

Thanks, Az, I think I agree with the Mystic Adept. Might be cool for a M. Bison-type baddie one day, but that's for another game. Full Magician it is~!
Malancthon
Here's My character so far. Please critique to see if I got him done correctly.

Ashe Lyonheart

BIO:
[ Spoiler ]


STATS
[ Spoiler ]


Things I'm thinking of doing: Maybe getting a last -5 Quality to gain a Spirit Mentor (Lion) to go with his name, although I don't know what benefits a Lion totem might grant. He is a hermatic mage, though... it's his own spirit that manifasts as a lion.

Spells I think are pretty wiz... might switch Physical Mask for Improved Invisibilty, though.
Divine Virus
well, my first impression
GET A BETTER FAKE ID!

Also, you will need a commlink of somesort, its virtually illegal not to have one, and you can't make calls without one. since you are a mage you will want a trode net, or link it into your sunglasses.
cheers!
Malancthon
CMT Clip is a commlink.

As to the fake ID, he's just starting in the shadows. I suppose I could drop a point in a Contact to get a better ID, though.
Divine Virus
sorry, I missed that, please pardon me.
As to the fake ID, I remain resolulte. Evertime you buy somthing, enter a mall, enter a store, log onto the matrix, in many cases log onto a new node, get scanned by a passing drone, talk to lonestar, etc you are going to have your ID checked in an opposed scanning test to see if it holds up. you ain't going to last long with only 1 dice chummer
b1ffov3rfl0w
QUOTE (Ryu)
An attribute of "3" is still considered human average. The days of PCs being world class in most of their attributes are now gone - takes some "getting used to". Within a 400bp limit I would not want to spend more than 200bp on attributes and try to go for less.


The days of starting PCs being world class are still around, if you want them. Just have them start with >400 BPs. For your team of former Tir Ghosts who were infected with HMHVV and gained vampire powers but then discovered a way to stop the essence loss and the one guy has a two-handed sword that's a Force 10 weapon focus that's also a Force 10 power focus and the other guy has all deltaware and some epsilonware because he escaped from a secret program that exists to give people ridiculously powerful things.

Or, more reasonably, 450-500 build points lets you have some substantially powerful starting characters.
Malancthon
It's not that starting characters are less powerful that's a problem, but more of the shock of the new chargen system. If one was familier with the old chargen process, then you're expecting to be able to make a certain kind of character. You knew the tweaks and tricks to best optimize a character concept. However, changing chargen or making it more difficult is sort of a shock- you're not exactly sure what you're doing, because you're used to needing a certain stat so high, or having a character with high attributes but next to no cash or whatever.

I remember being irked when 2nd went to 3rd. What the drek, thought I, everything's overpowered! C, D, and E priority gave bigger results in 3rd than in 2nd, making it less damaging to have the lower priorities.

However, with 4th's radically different chargen (yes, I remember when it was optional in the 2nd ed Runner's Companion, which I tinkered with a couple of times but stuck mostly with the Priority system), I have to relearn how to make a character, making a before-pleasent experiance now a vexing one. I imagine as I get more used to 4th, I'll find it less annoying, and when 5th comes along, I'll be peeved then for changing it from 4th's supposed superiority.

Anyway, to stop this tangent, this thread was to help Me readjust to 4th ed. Thanks for those who helped.
Cain
Personally, I haven't found it to be any less irritating as time's gone on. My last character attempt took about three hours to complete. My best time is about two hours, and my worst is about four days. Some people like really fiddly character creation, but I like more concrete results for such effort. Detailed effort for abstract results just isn't something I enjoy.
Ophis
I must admit I can't work out what you find so hard. Putting together a decent mage takes me maybe an hour about twenty minuites if I use a Char Gen prog. I do regular design of NPCs on till roll at work, from memory. A tech character takes a while longer to buy his stuff, work out the wear but no more than two hours. This is with some optimising tweaks. What is you problem Cain? It has never seemed clear to me why it takes you so long.
Cain
The biggest killer is the back-and-forth thing. If I've got a character concept, that means I'll have to do X here and Y there... except if I do that, that'll leave him unacceptable in area Z. So, I have to go back and rebalance out everything. I'll fiddle with one stat here, but that means I have to deal with another stat over there, and so on and so forth... and before you know it, I've practically redone the character from scratch.

Technology is a killer, too-- I deliberately left it out of my chargen times listed above. Gear alone used to take me all day, because I could never accurately guess how much cash I'd need. I've just taken to buying up whatever I think he should have, then dividing the total cost by 5000. Which makes that section go much faster; but now, I don't know how many points I'll have to spend elsewhere until I've finished equipping him. That slows me right back down again.
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