Synner made a post that got me wondering. Rather than hijack the equivalent of a semi-truck load of fresh dung I figured I'd start a new thread and include a poll.
To kick it off here is a cross-thread partial quote from Synner followed by my question to him. I'd love to here from other people too of course. Feel free to toss in related info too like how often you award bonus Edge refresh points, as mentioned on page 68.
Full Version: Edge Refresh Rates
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| What looks great on paper would be useless in the game I run (I should know, we tried a high-Edge character in playtesting and their Edge didn't last more than halfway through the adventure -On The Run- and he went down at the very start of the final shootout). |
That does sound like a pretty slow refresh rate, and the value of Edge is highly dependant on refresh rate. About how many hours at the table would you say that On The Run accounted for? We are refreshing every session, with 5-6 hour sessions in which we can complete smaller arcless runs. Edge is still definately a factor, but I wouldn't say dominating. I do find myself tightly rationing my 6 points all the way through. But then I seem to have a knack for rolling Glitches. What are the odds on rolling a 12 die Glitch again?
Maybe time to buy a new set of dice. 
The biggest issue I would expect with a really a low Edge refresh is spirit Edge, although the GM can control that somewhat since they are NPCs. What have you seen in that regard?
Also do you allow a permanent Edge burn if they have used up all their Edge points already?
I'm not really sure right now, but one thing should be clear: don't punish the chars with low edge through low refresh rates to limit the one char with high edge ...
| QUOTE (Butterblume @ Mar 16 2006, 03:08 PM) |
| I'm not really sure right now, but one thing should be clear: don't punish the chars with low edge through low refresh rates to limit the one char with high edge ... |
I was kind of curious if people that are going through long runs before refreshing Edge were seeing PCs with an Edge of 1, 2, or maybe even 3 really in a bind tight bind. Hours played isn't likely the best metric, it is more how much you roll the dice. But assuming you do roll dice a decent amount over that length of period each PC should expect at least one or two Critcal Glitches and a number of Glitches.
Having to just eat a Critical Glitch because you think you can survive it, or because you already spent your Edge has to really hurt. Even more so if you are playing that you don't have the option to permanently burn a point of Edge if you have already used up all your Edge points.
EDIT The sting of Critical Glitches can be moderated somewhat as often it is generally GM call what they translate to, so I wonder if maybe long refresh rates games are also accompanied by that.
In general, I give back edge randomly. If you made me last, you get back a point of edge. You bring food? Have some edge back. Roleplay well? You get the idea. I haven't had an Edge Refresh moment where everyone in the game has gotten it back all at once. Thus, I voted other.
| QUOTE (Dashifen @ Mar 16 2006, 03:49 PM) |
| In general, I give back edge randomly. If you made me last, you get back a point of edge. You bring food? Have some edge back. Roleplay well? You get the idea. I haven't had an Edge Refresh moment where everyone in the game has gotten it back all at once. Thus, I voted other. |
That is an interesting option, very rare full refresh. Do you find characters running out often? Do they eat Critical Glitches much? What kind of mix of use for Glitch negation vesus extra Edge dice to attempt something fabulous do you see?
We haven't seen a critical glitch yet, though glitches are relatively common. No one has used Edge to negate glitches prefering to role with the punches in that respect and save the Edge for rolling. I have seen a lot of failure-re-rolls with Edge, though. Most of my characters have only 1 or 2 Edge anyway so they're always out of Edge, which probably skews the results.
I think in the games we've been playing, the lowest edge character had a 3, and we've routinely run the entire party out of edge. I think we're not getting refreshed enough. But I also voted for the 5-6 or 8-10 hours between refresh in a run.
Other:
Every character starts with full Edge into the story.
In game, Edge refreshes one point at a time, as per suggestions.
Every character starts with full Edge into the story.
In game, Edge refreshes one point at a time, as per suggestions.
| QUOTE (Dashifen) |
| We haven't seen a critical glitch yet, though glitches are relatively common. No one has used Edge to negate glitches prefering to role with the punches in that respect and save the Edge for rolling. I have seen a lot of failure-re-rolls with Edge, though. Most of my characters have only 1 or 2 Edge anyway so they're always out of Edge, which probably skews the results. |
That's funny when I made my first character for SR-4 for our trial run at it, I made a critical Glitch on my very first roll (close combat, burned edge to avoid the critical, ended up face planting and breaking the blade off my knife in front of two gangers). But I can't say I've seen many critical glitches, the garden variety are a bit more common.
The way my group runs Edge is that we get One Edge Point back whenever we get an unstressful night's rest, as well as in those 'Oh Cool' moments that happen from time to time.
Still, as a player I tend to Hoard my Edge, 'just in case' I really need to take someone down 'right fracking now', our "Combat Monster Vatjob Adept" rolls enough dice when using his sword that his (1) Edge really doesn't help him anyways (I'm just waiting for him to bite the big one because of it as well.), and I don't think the Hacker/B&E really understands Edge, although she tends to be lucky enough anyways that she hasn't needed it thus far.
Still, as a player I tend to Hoard my Edge, 'just in case' I really need to take someone down 'right fracking now', our "Combat Monster Vatjob Adept" rolls enough dice when using his sword that his (1) Edge really doesn't help him anyways (I'm just waiting for him to bite the big one because of it as well.), and I don't think the Hacker/B&E really understands Edge, although she tends to be lucky enough anyways that she hasn't needed it thus far.
We usually refresh edge whenever the characters get some full rest/downtime. Not necessarily full nights sleep, but when things are lulling and there's little reason to need it. During a few days of prep between parts of a job or doing legwork. I havne't really set hard and fast rules for it, but the general guideline that I 've been following is whenever they have a good space of time , I'd estimate about 12 hours, between any kind of important die roll.
In a general session, this usally means that we only end up refreshing at the beginning of the run, and perhaps once in between. If we picked up where we left off (ex: last session they started where they left off, about to attack a blood mage and his entourage, after taking out a few jaguar gaurds and taking some hefty wounds), they're left with what they had.
All in all, edge is pretty important in our games, as the main group tends to be more combat oriented, and I run pretty nasty games. In most games, characters with edge of 6 are left with maybe one or two points left on average. And characters still die. The combat is more action-ish type than tactical though. Mostly because that's how the players think, and like it, so that's what I run.
In a general session, this usally means that we only end up refreshing at the beginning of the run, and perhaps once in between. If we picked up where we left off (ex: last session they started where they left off, about to attack a blood mage and his entourage, after taking out a few jaguar gaurds and taking some hefty wounds), they're left with what they had.
All in all, edge is pretty important in our games, as the main group tends to be more combat oriented, and I run pretty nasty games. In most games, characters with edge of 6 are left with maybe one or two points left on average. And characters still die. The combat is more action-ish type than tactical though. Mostly because that's how the players think, and like it, so that's what I run.
I don't think my group really grasps Edge at all. I refresh usually between sessions, so long as we don't end a session in a stressful moment. I think the mage just realized the importance of Edge while binding some spirits (he had almost no chance of successfully binding without Edge, and only barely succeeded with it). The troll (whose express purpose is, indeed, to flip out and kill people) I think forgets he has Edge. The driver adept rarely needs it, really... She can normally get about enough hits to drive a schoolbus through the eye of a needle. I refresh so regularly mostly because I like to see the player characters do awesome things. It's similar to the way I hand out Karma (about 6 per session, average, even if in the middle of a run). I'm generous because I like to see stuff happen. Besides, it justifies me throwing the big guns at them.
@Eryk the Red
I joined the group after they had played about, I think, a half dozen sessions. All new to SR players, GM hadn't played SR in a number of years. I don't know all their exact Edge Attributes, but I'm pretty sure nobody had the 6 I gave my character. I don't think there is any 1's, but there was at least one 2.
After a couple of sessions I've perceived a tend of a marked increase in the use of Edge for extra dice, especially the last 2 sessions. I haven't really asked but I suspect it might be because they have seen how effective Slim can be when he spends his Edge on extra dice at critical junctures.
I bet the same will eventually happen in your group once the other players start noticing that the mage is actually accomplishing some things they normally wouldn't.
I joined the group after they had played about, I think, a half dozen sessions. All new to SR players, GM hadn't played SR in a number of years. I don't know all their exact Edge Attributes, but I'm pretty sure nobody had the 6 I gave my character. I don't think there is any 1's, but there was at least one 2.
After a couple of sessions I've perceived a tend of a marked increase in the use of Edge for extra dice, especially the last 2 sessions. I haven't really asked but I suspect it might be because they have seen how effective Slim can be when he spends his Edge on extra dice at critical junctures.
I bet the same will eventually happen in your group once the other players start noticing that the mage is actually accomplishing some things they normally wouldn't.
Our sessions typically last five hours, and Edge refreshes at the beginning of each session. That's the only time it's regained.
It's working well. No one currently has an Edge greater than 4, but they use it wisely. The end of the sessions are usually a bit more tense and/or exciting than the beginning, as some people have either already used all of their Edge while other people are spending it just because they have some left.
I imagine if someone threw down the ol' Lucky Human combo then he might be spending it almost willy-nilly. But then, I suppose that's his job.
It's working well. No one currently has an Edge greater than 4, but they use it wisely. The end of the sessions are usually a bit more tense and/or exciting than the beginning, as some people have either already used all of their Edge while other people are spending it just because they have some left.
I imagine if someone threw down the ol' Lucky Human combo then he might be spending it almost willy-nilly. But then, I suppose that's his job.
At the start of every 3.5 hr. session. The edge flies fast and furious, but then again, NPCs have it, too, and while a PC has to spend it over an entire session, most NPCs appear in only one encounter.
end of run otherwise continuity is broken a little, with edge refreshing sometimes after an hour and sometimes after a month
| QUOTE (Bullet Raven @ Mar 17 2006, 04:24 PM) |
| end of run otherwise continuity is broken a little, with edge refreshing sometimes after an hour and sometimes after a month |
I wouldn't say it breaks continuity. Edge is purposefully a nebulous attribute, representing how lucky/well-prepared/experienced/supernaturally-favored/cool you are.
It's fundamentally a metagame power that fires off only at the player's whim. You could have it refresh whenever the dog across the street barks during a game session and it'd still have as much capricious "realism" as anything else.
I'd say the only injustices you could do to Edge's refresh rate is have it happen so often that the high-Edge people dominate the game, or too infrequently to where investing in it heavily isn't worthwhile.
| QUOTE (Zen Shooter01) |
| At the start of every 3.5 hr. session. The edge flies fast and furious, but then again, NPCs have it, too, and while a PC has to spend it over an entire session, most NPCs appear in only one encounter. |
That may be the reason my PC's go through it so fast. The NPC's in my games have normal edge attributes, instead of some weird "grunt" rating. Humans have 4, metahumans have 3 on average, and just build/modify them from there depending on experience. After all, three is average for all attributes. Lets even NPC sec guards get some good hits in and makes things more dangerous even for high powered characters.
Actually as, edge is soley a 'metagame' attribute, even the average amount of edge that the man on the street has needs a bit of thought. Depending on how 'heroic' you want the game to be, edge might be relegated to a pc/named villain only stat, or, as you say, everyone might have some.
sorry, let me clarify. My reasoning is that since 3 is the average for the standard attributes, it stand sto reason that edge should average at 3 as well. I prefer to have just that little more chance in there, and to give even Joe Schmoe a little more punch, give the opposition a little more to throw at them. That's just our preference though. I'm not saying that we're right or wrong, just explaining what we do and why.
I don't give an edge rating to the most NPCs at all. After all, where is the edge in edge, if everyone has it?
If i really need the NPC to succeed in something, i still have my superhuman GM powers. Haven't used them in this regard yet.
If i really need the NPC to succeed in something, i still have my superhuman GM powers. Haven't used them in this regard yet.
| QUOTE (Dashifen) |
| In general, I give back edge randomly. If you made me last, you get back a point of edge. You bring food? Have some edge back. Roleplay well? You get the idea. I haven't had an Edge Refresh moment where everyone in the game has gotten it back all at once. Thus, I voted other. |
I like this system, and will begin implementing it immediately.
Starting a new daily ritual: thread rebirth. Don't worry, I'll avoid threads that died after a 10 page flame fest. 4 pages might be doable.
My group refreshes edge at the start of every run, and per the refresh guidelines given. Doing it on a per session base might get people thinking they should stall for time with some off topic chatter before heading into the big firefight.
My group refreshes edge at the start of every run, and per the refresh guidelines given. Doing it on a per session base might get people thinking they should stall for time with some off topic chatter before heading into the big firefight.
| QUOTE (James McMurray @ Apr 18 2006, 02:35 PM) |
| Doing it on a per session base might get people thinking they should stall for time with some off topic chatter before heading into the big firefight. |
An understandable concern.
Derailing in my game is a great (and openly advertised) way to lessen the karma awards, though, so we've got a bit of a check built in on that.
I mean, I'm don't get all gestapo on them when they (or we) start yapping about non-game stuff. We're all there to have fun, first and foremost. It's just that they know they're going to be getting less "karma over time" if they spend too much of their time on distractions.
Sometimes it's the GMs that derail our games, so lowering karma rewards would piss come people off.
Heh, I hear you. I just mean it's more like:
"Okay, today you managed to find the dude and talk to him about the thing. That's pretty much it, so... 1 karma."
As opposed to:
"You did the thing, and the other thing, and found out that the guy had the doohickey instead of the chick. You saved the chick and she told you about the whatsis located in the dragon's whatever. That raid went well, and you got paid by the two rival corps without either knowing, so.... eleventy hojillion karma."
To the credit of my group, they're veryvery good about getting themselves (and their GM) back on topic. It could be because the youngest of us is 30, though.
"Okay, today you managed to find the dude and talk to him about the thing. That's pretty much it, so... 1 karma."
As opposed to:
"You did the thing, and the other thing, and found out that the guy had the doohickey instead of the chick. You saved the chick and she told you about the whatsis located in the dragon's whatever. That raid went well, and you got paid by the two rival corps without either knowing, so.... eleventy hojillion karma."
To the credit of my group, they're veryvery good about getting themselves (and their GM) back on topic. It could be because the youngest of us is 30, though.
Ah. Not necessarily lowered karma, just slower because the accomplishments don't come in as quickly. That's how we do it too.
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