So I finally got my hands to the new book, and I have to admit it looks like I'll have to change to that, though there are several things which I'm not sure of.

First of all, the attribute and skill caps will have to go.

But the purpose of this topic is to gather some adjustments to the game, since I know that there are many people who dislike the 4th edition as it is. I myself was almost sure that I wouldn't be converted, but now it seems that I'm between a rock and a hard place, I would like to change to SR4, but on the other hand, SR3 still seems nice® compared to SR4, but then again, I would like to play deckers without all the hassle of SR3.

Opinions?

Try it, think, and choose.

As much as I disagree with certain aspects of the game (such as char-gen caps being equal to the hard limit too often), these rules have been extensively playtested. So if you are changing anything, I suggest doing it on a provisional basis, seeing if it actually works without unbalancing the game.

Just one example of something that removing the hard Attribute caps could affect: trolls. They get a net +8 to their Attributes. That means a troll can start out with effectively 280 points spent on Attributes, compared to 200 for a human. This huge advantage is balanced by the low Attribute maximums a troll has in Agility and several mental Attributes. But what happens if a troll can go over those limits for a bit of extra Karma?

"Hey, how come every member of the team is a troll now?"

I've never thought of that -- enforcing a street cred limit on jobs, as in a Johnson doesn't even read your profile if it doesn't come across his AR desk with a street cred of at least 10. Perhaps that was the intention of the concept at one time or another, but it never sunk in. Either way, thanks guys.

@The Horror:

Never having done Eye Witness myself, I can't speak towards its merits or faults as an adventure. However, something seems a bit odd there. How did they find the snipers, at the very least? I've always avoided snipers in my games because I find them too powerful as the average character won't be able to do much after the sniper wins his ambush test and calls the shot for greater damage.

Potentially. If your street cred isn't high enough, why would they higher you. Okay, so perhaps 10 is too high, but most of my characters are hovering around 25-30 karma after about a month of in-game play. Thus, after four months or so of running in any given area, your street cred might get you noticed by some of the bigger Johnsons.

Do your forces counterspell? What about surrounding themselves in a mana/physical barrier for the added protection? Drone support? Seems to me like your players are having it pretty easy. Not to criticize you or them, tell me to back off if you want me to.

@Horror:
I think the big problem is that you are taking runs that were probably designed for a small "balanced" party (like one mage, one sammie, a decker, and a rigger, maybe), and running a mid-to-large sized group of combat monsters through it. You're not going to challenge them that way.

If they are doing bad things during their runs (massacres, etc.), then hit them where it hurts - have their Notoriety rise, their Street Cred plummet, and their contacts hang them out to dry. Not to be vindictive, but just to have the Seattle underworld and the shady corporate types at its fringes respond realistically to a group that is making too much noise and bringing heat down on everyone.

If they are brutally min-maxed, challenge them with high-profile runs against similarly tough opposition, and occasionally stick them in delicate social situations or other circumstances where their lack of non-combat skills is a disadvantage. Again, not to mess with them, but to challenge them in a different way.

Wow... Don't take this the wrong way Horror, but are you sure you used cover, visibility, range and movement modifiers (I'm assuming the ambushers weren't out in the open in broad daylight and lined up in a row)? I'm having a hardtime figuring out how your crew didn't get pummeled by the spirits, let alone how they took out 15 targets (assuming the mages were exposed which they shouldn't be) with varying degrees of cover and placed at different ranges in 1 Turn.

Thanks for the Counterspelling comments guys.

The main thing about my example is this: I do not think that the game works well with awfully min maxed PCs. I think PCs should be more like the archetypes in the book.

That particular combat that took place ended very quickly because of the use of grenade launchers. I did make use of all the combat modifiers. The combatants were using cover. Yes, it was a massive all out fight in corporate suburbia during broad daylight. Normally I would make them pay for that if they had planned it. Unfortunately, it was an ambush scripted by the module so I chose not to punish them for that. I just handwaived it and said the corporation cleared that area and covered up all tracks of the encounter.

When these guys get over playing pre-published games I'll start up my own campaign. Tone down the starting power level substantially. And up the drain code of spells.

Oh yes, and before anybody asks what the PCs were doing with grenade launchers in broad daylight: a couple of the PCs carry one of them in a bag everywhere they go (one in a golf bag and one in a gym bag). If it was anything other than pre-published games I would make them pay for it dearly, but at least they've been careful about leaving that shit behind when there is a possibility they will get searched/scanned. Its not exactly the kind of players I'd prefer for Shadowrun - they have a very peculiar mentality to the game (kill everything and take its stuff).

The main problem I have with Shadowrun though is that in a lot of ways it shares a very similar design philosophy to D&D. It always has in previous editions, and it still does. The gritty future of Shadowrun that I envision is not incredibly well supported by the RAW. Most of that comes in from elements introduced by the GM.

The best way that I can see to handle the setting as I envision it (other than using a different system) is to severely tone down the availability of all items during character creation, to make overcasting spells a much nastier proposition, to outright remove all pieces of armor of 6/4 rating or higher (keeping them for soldiers and corporate teams), and to carefully inspect the size of different dice pools for a character and insist that they be downgraded. A ganger campaign would be ideal for this, or maybe a more investigative game where the PCs are private investigators. Another one I've always wanted to run is a game where the PCs are all working as field operatives for DocWagon - just regular people wanting to live through the day by finding loopholes in the retrieval contracts.