When I played SR3, no one ever played a decker or a rigger 'cause it was too complicated for a quick game. Well, now that we're playing SR4, & the hacker/rigger/techno rules are, allegedly, simpler & streamlined, I jumped in as a technomancer...smart me.
Anyway, I've been doing fine, figuring my way through stuff pretty well. Only now my team has picked up a couple of drones off a corpse & they want me to take them over. I've read the section on rigging in the SR4 book, but there's not a lot of instruction, only description.
So what I need is some basic tips for running a rigger. What do I roll to take over a drone that used to be someone else's? Once I've taken over the drones, can I run them via AR? Does that take anything away from my dice pool while I'm making the drone go? When I shoot with a drone, what do I roll? Also, what skills do I use to figure out what autosofts the drones may have?
I know these are completely basic & stupid questions, but I have no clue where to start. I think I'm having a brain-freeze of some sort.... Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Full Version: Rigger 101
To try and answer your questions, I'll put explanations in plain text, matrix actions in orange.
1. Taking over someone else's drones
As with most cases in SR4, you have a few options: spoof commands to the drone or hack. The first option means you need to establish two-way communication with the drone and then send that drone commands as if you are the rigger (Detect Wireless Node, Decrypt (if necessary), Intercept Wireless Signals, Spoof Command). Note, that in order to spoof commands, you'll need to perceive the rigger on the matrix to gain his/her access ID for the drones. This would require the following programs: Scan, Decrypt, Sniffer, Spoof. And the following skills: Electronic Warfare and Hacking. Note that this method has two serious drawbacks: if the rigger issues another command after yours, the drone will now have new instructions and you'd need to spoof a new command and if the drone is set up to only listen to information from a specific commlink, then you may not be able to get it to listen to yours. Essentially, if the drone is set up that it won't let you subscribe to it's node, then you can't establish communication with it. For added fun, if you can Intercept the Wireless Signals between the drone and the rigger, you could block any new commands, thus negating one of these drawbacks. You could also jam the rigger's communications but without a careful application of a directional jammer, you might just jam your own ability to communicate with the drone as well.
The second option involves hacking the rigger's commlink. For this you'd need to break into it somehow (Log on) and once you're logged on, you can now send commands to the drone without spoofing since you are sending it commands from the rigger's commlink. This only requires the Exploit and Command programs and the Hacking skill. While this makes it seem more attractive, it's can be at least as problematic (if not more so) than the option above as the rigger's commlink is probably defended in some way and, thus, you may have to contend with IC or even the rigger in cybercombat. But, if you can gain access to the commlink, the drone will think that you're the rigger and you'll be able to control them as if they were your own. Note that you could them have the rigger's commlink unsubscribe from the drones and subscribe to them with your own commlink effectively stealing them. Drop an agent onto the rigger's commlink to crash it's OS and the rigger may have quite a bit of trouble getting them back before you shoot him with his own equipment.
The last option would require hacking not the rigger's commlink but the drone itself. In this case, you would use the Exploit program and your Hacking skill to log onto the drone's node. Then, you would need a Command program to issue it commands once you control it. This could have the same downsides as hacking the rigger's commlink and doesn't really provide you the opportunity to steal more than just the one drone you've hacked.
In my games, drones and commlinks only have admin level access, thus to hack them you need an extended test of Firewall + 6 to get them. Thus, spoofing commands also may avoid a drawn out hacking attempt during combat.
2. Can you run drones via AR?
Yes. You can do anything online in the matrix either in VR or in AR. The difference is really the speed at which you get things done as you (a) have more initiative passes in VR and (b) some extended tests have a longer interval in AR than in VR.
3. Does controlling a drone reduce a dice pool?
I think that's what you're asking, perhaps analogous to the -2 per bound spirit optional rule? Anyway, unless I misunderstand you, controlling a drone does not reduce any dice pools. I does, however, count as a subscribed device and you can only subscribe System x 2 devices (or nodes, agents, etc.) at once.
Edit: Just thought of something: if you are trying to control a drone via VR and perform real world actions, you are at a -4 to all dice pools, if I remember correctly, because your brain is focused on the virtual world and not the physical. I guess this is somewhat analogous to an awakened character trying to work on the physical and the astral at once but worse.
4. What do you roll to shoot with a drone?
Well, this is another complex one. If you're issuing a command to the drone and then letting it shoot, then the drone rolls Pilot + Targeting Autosoft (if available) as a ranged combat test on its initiative pass. If you're jumped into the drone, then you use the rigger's own skills to shoot. Remember, to shoot a vehicle (or drone) mounted weapon, the Gunnery skill is used. The benefit of controlling the drone directly via VR is that you generally have a larger dice pool than the drone does. However, if the drone takes damage, the rigger suffers "dangerous biofeedback." Issuing commands to shoot to the drone keeps the rigger safer, but the drones may be less effective.
5. How do you know what autosofts the drones you stole have?
I'd argue that a successful matrix perception test would work. Matrix perception tests can tell you what programs a node is running, and autosofts are programs. Remember, though, the hits you get on the perception test give you data about a node on a one-for-one basis. Thus, if you get 2 hits, you'll only learn about two autosofts.
1. Taking over someone else's drones
As with most cases in SR4, you have a few options: spoof commands to the drone or hack. The first option means you need to establish two-way communication with the drone and then send that drone commands as if you are the rigger (Detect Wireless Node, Decrypt (if necessary), Intercept Wireless Signals, Spoof Command). Note, that in order to spoof commands, you'll need to perceive the rigger on the matrix to gain his/her access ID for the drones. This would require the following programs: Scan, Decrypt, Sniffer, Spoof. And the following skills: Electronic Warfare and Hacking. Note that this method has two serious drawbacks: if the rigger issues another command after yours, the drone will now have new instructions and you'd need to spoof a new command and if the drone is set up to only listen to information from a specific commlink, then you may not be able to get it to listen to yours. Essentially, if the drone is set up that it won't let you subscribe to it's node, then you can't establish communication with it. For added fun, if you can Intercept the Wireless Signals between the drone and the rigger, you could block any new commands, thus negating one of these drawbacks. You could also jam the rigger's communications but without a careful application of a directional jammer, you might just jam your own ability to communicate with the drone as well.
The second option involves hacking the rigger's commlink. For this you'd need to break into it somehow (Log on) and once you're logged on, you can now send commands to the drone without spoofing since you are sending it commands from the rigger's commlink. This only requires the Exploit and Command programs and the Hacking skill. While this makes it seem more attractive, it's can be at least as problematic (if not more so) than the option above as the rigger's commlink is probably defended in some way and, thus, you may have to contend with IC or even the rigger in cybercombat. But, if you can gain access to the commlink, the drone will think that you're the rigger and you'll be able to control them as if they were your own. Note that you could them have the rigger's commlink unsubscribe from the drones and subscribe to them with your own commlink effectively stealing them. Drop an agent onto the rigger's commlink to crash it's OS and the rigger may have quite a bit of trouble getting them back before you shoot him with his own equipment.
The last option would require hacking not the rigger's commlink but the drone itself. In this case, you would use the Exploit program and your Hacking skill to log onto the drone's node. Then, you would need a Command program to issue it commands once you control it. This could have the same downsides as hacking the rigger's commlink and doesn't really provide you the opportunity to steal more than just the one drone you've hacked.
In my games, drones and commlinks only have admin level access, thus to hack them you need an extended test of Firewall + 6 to get them. Thus, spoofing commands also may avoid a drawn out hacking attempt during combat.
2. Can you run drones via AR?
Yes. You can do anything online in the matrix either in VR or in AR. The difference is really the speed at which you get things done as you (a) have more initiative passes in VR and (b) some extended tests have a longer interval in AR than in VR.
3. Does controlling a drone reduce a dice pool?
I think that's what you're asking, perhaps analogous to the -2 per bound spirit optional rule? Anyway, unless I misunderstand you, controlling a drone does not reduce any dice pools. I does, however, count as a subscribed device and you can only subscribe System x 2 devices (or nodes, agents, etc.) at once.
Edit: Just thought of something: if you are trying to control a drone via VR and perform real world actions, you are at a -4 to all dice pools, if I remember correctly, because your brain is focused on the virtual world and not the physical. I guess this is somewhat analogous to an awakened character trying to work on the physical and the astral at once but worse.
4. What do you roll to shoot with a drone?
Well, this is another complex one. If you're issuing a command to the drone and then letting it shoot, then the drone rolls Pilot + Targeting Autosoft (if available) as a ranged combat test on its initiative pass. If you're jumped into the drone, then you use the rigger's own skills to shoot. Remember, to shoot a vehicle (or drone) mounted weapon, the Gunnery skill is used. The benefit of controlling the drone directly via VR is that you generally have a larger dice pool than the drone does. However, if the drone takes damage, the rigger suffers "dangerous biofeedback." Issuing commands to shoot to the drone keeps the rigger safer, but the drones may be less effective.
5. How do you know what autosofts the drones you stole have?
I'd argue that a successful matrix perception test would work. Matrix perception tests can tell you what programs a node is running, and autosofts are programs. Remember, though, the hits you get on the perception test give you data about a node on a one-for-one basis. Thus, if you get 2 hits, you'll only learn about two autosofts.
In my games, we rule that taking over a drone is just like hacking any other device/commlink. Once you get admin access you can change who owns it, who it listens too.
Once taken over, you can issue commands via AR. However that means the drones will only roll their own pilot+(autosoft or skill).
We rule that drones roll pilotX2 for initiative, and also have 3 IP.
When you shoot with drone, you roll Pilot + Autosoft, if they don't have an autosoft, you only get pilot. You can add in, or it may already include, smartlink for an additional +2 dice. Your GM may not allow drones to use smrt link though.
Once you have control of the drone, the autosofts should be directly available to access without needing any kind of skill roll. (e.g. There's no reason that if you have a computer that it shouldn't be readily apparent that you have Office installed.)
For upgrading sensors, we ruled that it cost the same as upgrading Response, (or signal, which ever is 3k at level 6).
You are not having a brain freeze, the most basic info is just not there for riggers. Most of this is our groups house ruling, inferred from what we think the book would have said based on the descriptions it gives, so YMMV, but we think it works pretty well overall so far.
Once taken over, you can issue commands via AR. However that means the drones will only roll their own pilot+(autosoft or skill).
We rule that drones roll pilotX2 for initiative, and also have 3 IP.
When you shoot with drone, you roll Pilot + Autosoft, if they don't have an autosoft, you only get pilot. You can add in, or it may already include, smartlink for an additional +2 dice. Your GM may not allow drones to use smrt link though.
Once you have control of the drone, the autosofts should be directly available to access without needing any kind of skill roll. (e.g. There's no reason that if you have a computer that it shouldn't be readily apparent that you have Office installed.)
For upgrading sensors, we ruled that it cost the same as upgrading Response, (or signal, which ever is 3k at level 6).
You are not having a brain freeze, the most basic info is just not there for riggers. Most of this is our groups house ruling, inferred from what we think the book would have said based on the descriptions it gives, so YMMV, but we think it works pretty well overall so far.
| QUOTE (Lagomorph) |
| We rule that drones roll pilotX2 for initiative, and also have 3 IP. |
Just to be clear, by canon (p. 239) drones get Pilot + Response for their initiative but they do get 3 passes.
| QUOTE |
| Once you have control of the drone, the autosofts should be directly available to access without needing any kind of skill roll. (e.g. There's no reason that if you have a computer that it shouldn't be readily apparent that you have Office installed.) |
I agree. The perception test I mentioned above would let you know what kinds of programs the drone is running without having it under your control.
| QUOTE |
| For upgrading sensors, we ruled that it cost the same as upgrading Response, (or signal, which ever is 3k at level 6). |
That's signal. Response is 8000 at rating 6. I actually ruled that, until such a time as there are real rules for it, you can't upgrade the sensors on a vehicle/drone. That's why the clearsight autosoft is a necessity (and usually at as high a rating as possible) as I also ruled that clearsight is added as a dice pool modification to passive and active targeting.
Dashifen,
Initiative:
Thanks for clearing up the initiative rules! Though I think it's still lame that they aren't given specific response ratings, only that they are barely mentioned in the "generic device ratings" list.
Sensors:
Okay, yeah signal was what it was then. I'm at work and don't have my book on me. I was pretty impressed with the solution that my GM found, I think that it's a fair resolution to the question.
Not allowing any upgrade seems to really limit the abilities of drones considering the majority only have sensor 1, and that autosofts max at 4. And with out rules for being able to upgrade the device rating, they are capped at 3 anyway (software runs at the rating of the system, which is rolled into the device rating of 3).
Initiative:
Thanks for clearing up the initiative rules! Though I think it's still lame that they aren't given specific response ratings, only that they are barely mentioned in the "generic device ratings" list.
Sensors:
Okay, yeah signal was what it was then. I'm at work and don't have my book on me. I was pretty impressed with the solution that my GM found, I think that it's a fair resolution to the question.
Not allowing any upgrade seems to really limit the abilities of drones considering the majority only have sensor 1, and that autosofts max at 4. And with out rules for being able to upgrade the device rating, they are capped at 3 anyway (software runs at the rating of the system, which is rolled into the device rating of 3).
so which would be the least hassle way of taking over a drone
| QUOTE (Lagomorph) |
| Not allowing any upgrade seems to really limit the abilities of drones considering the majority only have sensor 1, and that autosofts max at 4. And with out rules for being able to upgrade the device rating, they are capped at 3 anyway (software runs at the rating of the system, which is rolled into the device rating of 3). |
True, but (perhaps naively) I trust that the play testers and the developers thought of this and wrote what they intended to be played.
| QUOTE (Rooks) |
| so which would be the least hassle way of taking over a drone |
Depends on the character. If you want to take over the drone for the purposes of getting it to follow just your commands and no one else's, then you'll have to hack something eventually (or kill the rigger and take his/her commlink
). If you just want to make a drone perform an action (i.e. make move or look in a different direction) simply spoofing a command to it might be a better possibility. Plus, hacking the drone and/or rigger's commlink may not be possible for all characters if they don't have the Exploit program.
It's my opinion that hacking is the best way to do it since you can end up controlling all of a rigger's drones in one fell swoop if you can gain control of said rigger's commlink. But, the rigger player in my game is a hard-core electronic warfare type of character and, thus, tends simply to intercept the wireless communications between the rigger and one or more drones and then spoof commands at the drone while making sure that the rigger can't communicate by jamming or crashing his commlink.
Thanks guys! This discussion has REALLY cleared some things up for me!!!!
That's what we're here for. Keep the questions coming if you have them.
you know, the funny thing about this thread...
for the original questions, you could have just said "pick up his commlink, spend a couple of complex actions telling the drones to subscribe to you, and unsubscribe from that commlink", and you'd have been done.
course, it is also nice to have the expanded rules, but basically it just follows the hacking rules pretty much. by which i mean, you just turn to the hacking section, and basically hack your opponents drones or commlink (in one way or another).
oh yeah, and without a targetting autosoft of the appropriate type, drones can't fire guns (unless of course you are rigging them).
oh, and upgrading the device rating is ridiculously easy. just horrendously expensive also =P the rules are already there, and are very easy to use.
you buy up each attribute separately.
for the original questions, you could have just said "pick up his commlink, spend a couple of complex actions telling the drones to subscribe to you, and unsubscribe from that commlink", and you'd have been done.
course, it is also nice to have the expanded rules, but basically it just follows the hacking rules pretty much. by which i mean, you just turn to the hacking section, and basically hack your opponents drones or commlink (in one way or another).
oh yeah, and without a targetting autosoft of the appropriate type, drones can't fire guns (unless of course you are rigging them).
oh, and upgrading the device rating is ridiculously easy. just horrendously expensive also =P the rules are already there, and are very easy to use.
you buy up each attribute separately.
Remember, though, we're looking at upgrading the drone's sensor, not one of the four attributes that are rolled into that device's rating. Sensors are seperate from the normal Response, Signal, System, and Firewall ratings.
oh, i was answering the question about upgrading the drone's device rating, not about sensor. as far as sensor goes, you're on your own...
although at least with drones, it's decent... not like most of the other vehicles...
although at least with drones, it's decent... not like most of the other vehicles...
Dashifen, Lagomorph, you are both pretty insightful!!!! I am glad I had been lurking around!
Now, I was thinking on another way to steal the drones, maybe a little easier...
1. Detect and Intercept Wireless Signal.
This includes: scan for the rigger and the drone frequencies. After finding them, decrypt their code. Perform an Analyze Action on the rigger's node.
2.Spoof rigger's command.
Using the rigger's spoofed signal, tell drone to switch to different frequency X.
3. While the rigger's busy finding where the drone signal go, jam all frequencies but that one.
4. Steal the drone.
(Spoofing again, unsubscribe the drone and add it to your subscription list.)
Notes: on page 225 of the BBB it says: "Note also that jamming can be either selective (targeting specific frequencies)"
Note 2: No IC or cybercombat involved!
You could repeat step 2 every once in a while to keep the rigger a few steps behind.
Or... you could also just shoot the fragger wih his own drone and get away with it.
So, what do you think?
Cheers,
Max
Now, I was thinking on another way to steal the drones, maybe a little easier...
1. Detect and Intercept Wireless Signal.
This includes: scan for the rigger and the drone frequencies. After finding them, decrypt their code. Perform an Analyze Action on the rigger's node.
2.Spoof rigger's command.
Using the rigger's spoofed signal, tell drone to switch to different frequency X.
3. While the rigger's busy finding where the drone signal go, jam all frequencies but that one.
4. Steal the drone.
(Spoofing again, unsubscribe the drone and add it to your subscription list.)
Notes: on page 225 of the BBB it says: "Note also that jamming can be either selective (targeting specific frequencies)"
Note 2: No IC or cybercombat involved!
You could repeat step 2 every once in a while to keep the rigger a few steps behind.
Or... you could also just shoot the fragger wih his own drone and get away with it.
So, what do you think?
Cheers,
Max
that would certainly work fine, AFAICT.
which is why you should be a technomancer with a machine sprite living in the drone, ready to kick the hoop of any fragger that tries to jack your drones
maybe a fault sprite too, to move onto the thief's commlink and play around
which is why you should be a technomancer with a machine sprite living in the drone, ready to kick the hoop of any fragger that tries to jack your drones
maybe a fault sprite too, to move onto the thief's commlink and play around
All of these ideas have been very helpful. In fact, my job's alot easier than what you describe because the owner of these drones my party found is dead...so I pretty much just have to hack the drones (or his commlink, once we get new batteries in it) & make them mine, so no need to fight him for them.
I love Dumpshock!
I love Dumpshock!
| QUOTE |
| 5. How do you know what autosofts the drones you stole have? I'd argue that a successful matrix perception test would work. Matrix perception tests can tell you what programs a node is running, and autosofts are programs. Remember, though, the hits you get on the perception test give you data about a node on a one-for-one basis. Thus, if you get 2 hits, you'll only learn about two autosofts. |
Actually, I'd argue this one. I'd say that you can just Call Up a Status Report, and find out. You should be able to see if the autosoft's been crashed or not via a status report, so getting a name off of it shouldn't be any harder.
A tiny addon. Unless you have a very well trained rigger when it comes to gunnery I would specialize. Go with Gunnery (Ballistic) since it would probably be the type of weapons that he has the most experience with since it covers most general guns like machineguns, pistols, rifles etc.
| QUOTE (Dashifen) |
| Edit: Just thought of something: if you are trying to control a drone via VR and perform real world actions, you are at a -4 to all dice pools... |
The penalty for "meat" actions while in VR was errata'd up to -6. Pretty hefty now.
-6 now, 'eh. Note to self 
| QUOTE | ||
Depends on the character. If you want to take over the drone for the purposes of getting it to follow just your commands and no one else's, then you'll have to hack something eventually (or kill the rigger and take his/her commlink ). If you just want to make a drone perform an action (i.e. make move or look in a different direction) simply spoofing a command to it might be a better possibility. |
Hacking is probably the best option, especially since the original owner is dead and the techno can take the time to hack carefully. However, I'd allow a character with unfettered access to a drone, such as having it in their possession while the original owner is dead, to wipe the original Pilot program and install their own with a Hardware roll.
As far as operating it after you've given yourself access, given that the OP's character is a technomancer, the easiest thing to do is to register a couple of Machine Sprites and have them operate the drones for you.
Well, installing Pilot is the same as installing System...
Actually if you have access to the device there's probably a "reset to factory default" mode that purges the subscription lists as a precaution for someone stealing or smashing the registered Comm. It would require some minor disassembly (e.g remove armor panel B12 with standard allen wrench, disconnect battery, press red button while reconnecting battery) with a low threshold Logic+Mechanic or Logic+Hardware test to perform.
| QUOTE (MaxHunter) |
| Dashifen, Lagomorph, you are both pretty insightful!!!! I am glad I had been lurking around! Now, I was thinking on another way to steal the drones, maybe a little easier... 1. Detect and Intercept Wireless Signal. This includes: scan for the rigger and the drone frequencies. After finding them, decrypt their code. Perform an Analyze Action on the rigger's node. 2.Spoof rigger's command. Using the rigger's spoofed signal, tell drone to switch to different frequency X. 3. While the rigger's busy finding where the drone signal go, jam all frequencies but that one. 4. Steal the drone. (Spoofing again, unsubscribe the drone and add it to your subscription list.) Notes: on page 225 of the BBB it says: "Note also that jamming can be either selective (targeting specific frequencies)" Note 2: No IC or cybercombat involved! You could repeat step 2 every once in a while to keep the rigger a few steps behind. Or... you could also just shoot the fragger wih his own drone and get away with it. So, what do you think? Cheers, Max |
I did that one time to down an arial surveilence drone, I gave it a command of "emergency maintence required, landing now"
Oh, one thing which has never really been covered in Intercepting wireless signals, is that if you can intercept, you should be able to tell how much data is going through, meaning you should be able to tell if the drone is rigged or not by the amount of simsense that is being passed back and forth when the drone is rigged compared to when it is not.
actually, if you have the commlink, then you can just log on as the owner and transfer the drones over. no need to hack it or anything. unless the guy was a technomancer, you can just use his commlink and the drone most likely has no way of knowing it's not him (it is theoretically possible, but i don't believe there are any rules in the game for it yet, that the drone is built to prevent that in some way... but if all the enemy rigger's info is on his commlink, then when you log onto his commlink, it is no different than when he logs onto his commlink)
(Wow, I can't believe my account is still active, it's been years since I last posted here!)
I recently got the SR4 book to play a new game with my old SR2/SR3 group from high school, and I've been trying to create a rigger character as well, and it's frustrated me to no end that I can't find any explicit explanation in the SR4 book as to what ratings (Pilot, Signal, Firewall, Response) each drone gets. It seems like the Pilot ratings for each drone are listed on page 342 and that drones either get Signal ratings of 3 or 4, depending on their size ("Sensor Packages", p.325). But I can't find any indication anywhere in the book of what Firewall and Response ratings each (every?) drone should get, and the Drone Rigger archetype on p.92 doesn't make things any clearer. You can upgrade each of the ratings individually? Or does that mean that the ratings are all supposed to be 4 for those two drone types by default? Or is there a combination of these two factors going on?
Can somebody just pretend I'm totally ignorant (not that it would be too much of a stretch to say so) and spell all this out for me?
I recently got the SR4 book to play a new game with my old SR2/SR3 group from high school, and I've been trying to create a rigger character as well, and it's frustrated me to no end that I can't find any explicit explanation in the SR4 book as to what ratings (Pilot, Signal, Firewall, Response) each drone gets. It seems like the Pilot ratings for each drone are listed on page 342 and that drones either get Signal ratings of 3 or 4, depending on their size ("Sensor Packages", p.325). But I can't find any indication anywhere in the book of what Firewall and Response ratings each (every?) drone should get, and the Drone Rigger archetype on p.92 doesn't make things any clearer. You can upgrade each of the ratings individually? Or does that mean that the ratings are all supposed to be 4 for those two drone types by default? Or is there a combination of these two factors going on?
Can somebody just pretend I'm totally ignorant (not that it would be too much of a stretch to say so) and spell all this out for me?
it's in the device ratings table in the wireless section i think.
that is, i'm sure it's in the device rating table, and i think that table is in the wireless section. look it up in the index (device rating) it's like page 214 or something like that i think.
anyways, drones (and vehicles) have a device rating of 3, unless they are military drones/vehicles and such.
sensor rating is listed in the vehicles table (end of the gear section), with the signal strength of those sensors indicated by sensor packages.
[edit] for clarification purposes, device rating 3 means that all their matrix attributes (system/pilot, response, signal, firewall) are 3 unless otherwise specified (for example, the drones have pilot 3 generally, but non-drone vehicles typically have pilot 1 or 2) [/edit]
that is, i'm sure it's in the device rating table, and i think that table is in the wireless section. look it up in the index (device rating) it's like page 214 or something like that i think.
anyways, drones (and vehicles) have a device rating of 3, unless they are military drones/vehicles and such.
sensor rating is listed in the vehicles table (end of the gear section), with the signal strength of those sensors indicated by sensor packages.
[edit] for clarification purposes, device rating 3 means that all their matrix attributes (system/pilot, response, signal, firewall) are 3 unless otherwise specified (for example, the drones have pilot 3 generally, but non-drone vehicles typically have pilot 1 or 2) [/edit]
So then the average "large" drone would be Pilot 3, Firewall 3, Response 3, and Signal 4?
If that's the case... then the Drone Rigger archetype wasted a lot of money upgrading his drones just to 4 ratings.
If that's the case... then the Drone Rigger archetype wasted a lot of money upgrading his drones just to 4 ratings.
that's probably true to some extent.
i expect it's because that's the maximum rating autosoft you can get, which requires that you have a pilot 4 program, which requires that you have a response 4 drone. also, response 4 means you could be running 4 programs at once... say, maneuver, defense, clearsight, and targetting. potentially a very large difference between 3 and 4 programs running at any given time. especially if you have, say, an ares alpha on a combat drone (needs 2 targetting autosofts, i imagine you would really really want defense, and probably clearsight if you're gonna be using either of the sensor assisted targetting methods, or maneuver if not). now sure, you could run those on a response 3 drone, but then the whole thing just starts to collapse on you... you lose 1 die on all tests from reduced pilot, 1 die on any test where you have an autosoft... it hurts.
so really, depending on how you look at it, the increase to rating 4 is potentially a 2 point difference, not just 1 point.
the firewall is probably a bad idea... just drop firewall 6 onto your commlink, then break the copy protection a few times to get yourself some extra copies for your drones. firewall is not limited by response like most programs are, so you should be good to go =)
i expect it's because that's the maximum rating autosoft you can get, which requires that you have a pilot 4 program, which requires that you have a response 4 drone. also, response 4 means you could be running 4 programs at once... say, maneuver, defense, clearsight, and targetting. potentially a very large difference between 3 and 4 programs running at any given time. especially if you have, say, an ares alpha on a combat drone (needs 2 targetting autosofts, i imagine you would really really want defense, and probably clearsight if you're gonna be using either of the sensor assisted targetting methods, or maneuver if not). now sure, you could run those on a response 3 drone, but then the whole thing just starts to collapse on you... you lose 1 die on all tests from reduced pilot, 1 die on any test where you have an autosoft... it hurts.
so really, depending on how you look at it, the increase to rating 4 is potentially a 2 point difference, not just 1 point.
the firewall is probably a bad idea... just drop firewall 6 onto your commlink, then break the copy protection a few times to get yourself some extra copies for your drones. firewall is not limited by response like most programs are, so you should be good to go =)
As firewall is a part of the OS of your commlink, how do you suggest that it be cracked? Crack the whole OS?
if it can be bought separately, then it can be cracked separately.
and hey, guess what? you can buy it separately.
and hey, guess what? you can buy it separately.
Just remember, though, that someone who (using Exploit) finds the weakness of copy number 3 of the rating 6 firewall might just be able to use that hole to bypass copy number 4 of the rating 6 firewall. Not?
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| i expect it's because that's the maximum rating autosoft you can get, which requires that you have a pilot 4 program, which requires that you have a response 4 drone. also, response 4 means you could be running 4 programs at once. |
Okay, you're finally shedding light on this for me. If you have the time, could you (or anyone) maybe find the spots in the book where it says:
-that autosofts can't have a higher rating than 4
-that a pilot rating of 4 would require a response rating of 4
-that the number of programs a drone can run at once is limited by its response rating (as opposed to its pilot rating...? aren't Pilot and System supposed to be somewhat interchangeable? that's why I'm confused on this point)
Not that I don't believe you, but I just want to see where these rules are listed in the book.
It's incredibly frustrating being so unfamiliar with SR4. I feel like I'd almost be better off not ever having played SR2 or SR3.
| QUOTE |
| -that autosofts can't have a higher rating than 4 |
It doesn't. However, the gear chapter only lists ratings 1-4. (p 321)
| QUOTE |
| -that a pilot rating of 4 would require a response rating of 4 |
Pilot is used in place of System for vehicles, drones, and agents (p 214), and System cannot be higher than Response (p 213).
| QUOTE |
| -that the number of programs a drone can run at once is limited by its response rating (as opposed to its pilot rating...? aren't Pilot and System supposed to be somewhat interchangeable? that's why I'm confused on this point) |
Too many programs reduces the Response rating, which probably reduces the System rating. So, if you've got Pilot 4 and Response 4, and you run 4 programs, your Response drops by one. (p212) And like the previous paragraph says, System cannot be higher than Response, so the Pilot gets reduced by one.
Your Pilot/System rating lists how many programs you can run without incurring a penalty: when active programs = System, Response goes down by 1. So, the higher your System, the more programs you can run safely. The number of programs you can run at once is determined by your System, but your System is determined by your Response.
| QUOTE (Cain) | ||
It doesn't. However, the gear chapter only lists ratings 1-4. (p 321) |
I think i will use the table on page 228 then, where such a restriction is not mentioned
.I can't remember that a max rating of 4 for autosofts is mentioned anywhere else than in the table on page 321.
Hah! - Those initial problems are just the beginning of your rigging headaches.
When you get around to seeing that the drones are less armored than a typical ganger, thats when tears start.
When you get around to seeing that the drones are less armored than a typical ganger, thats when tears start.
The OP mentioned being a technomancer...
Don't forget there are drone sprites available to you to control your drones and they do a better job, iirc than pilot programs do.
Don't forget there are drone sprites available to you to control your drones and they do a better job, iirc than pilot programs do.
@Butterblume - the max rating 4 seems reasonable, and is also true for skillsofts, the max rating for sofware to do skill is equal to very well trained, not the extensive experience/talent 5 and 6 represent.
@Weblife - actually it seems resonable to me that drones are lighly armoured as they are small things, big RPVs should be tougher but dog sized drones should be reletivly weak. Though you gangers seem over equipped (in my game the lucky one have lined coats, the very lucky ones).
I love the fact that the riggers drones go pop. In Sr3 I had to wheel out mages/hvy weapons to even scratch the rigger's steel lynx mob, now I can use normal firepower.
@Weblife - actually it seems resonable to me that drones are lighly armoured as they are small things, big RPVs should be tougher but dog sized drones should be reletivly weak. Though you gangers seem over equipped (in my game the lucky one have lined coats, the very lucky ones).
I love the fact that the riggers drones go pop. In Sr3 I had to wheel out mages/hvy weapons to even scratch the rigger's steel lynx mob, now I can use normal firepower.
@Ophis
Spirits have high levels of hardened armor, are easier to transport, are cheaper to call on and can make a plaything of most criminals not geared for magical combat.
How can nerfing drones be defended in the face of that? - They are hard to transport, expensive as hell and, these days, easy to kill.
Sprites=Spirits=Drones=Agents and should be of comparable use and power. (taking into account their very different fields of use naturally).
EDIT: Lined Coat @ 700 nuyen 6/4 (equal to a Dobermann armor), Armor Jacket @ 900 nuyen 8/6 nearly as good as Steel Lynx and only 200 nuyen more expensive.
Sounds to me like your gangers are underpowered.
Pilot 3 is the average, meaning 3 dice to dodge. Most players have reaction 3+ and either dodge or athletics to use, aswell as higher body than 3-4 if they are combat types. With allowance for Edge on life and death things, they roll vastly more soak dice than the average combat drone. Joe Ganger rolls more soak dice than the drones do.
But, whatever, we've been over this before and few if any here agree with me, so let it be.
Spirits have high levels of hardened armor, are easier to transport, are cheaper to call on and can make a plaything of most criminals not geared for magical combat.
How can nerfing drones be defended in the face of that? - They are hard to transport, expensive as hell and, these days, easy to kill.
Sprites=Spirits=Drones=Agents and should be of comparable use and power. (taking into account their very different fields of use naturally).
EDIT: Lined Coat @ 700 nuyen 6/4 (equal to a Dobermann armor), Armor Jacket @ 900 nuyen 8/6 nearly as good as Steel Lynx and only 200 nuyen more expensive.
Sounds to me like your gangers are underpowered.
Pilot 3 is the average, meaning 3 dice to dodge. Most players have reaction 3+ and either dodge or athletics to use, aswell as higher body than 3-4 if they are combat types. With allowance for Edge on life and death things, they roll vastly more soak dice than the average combat drone. Joe Ganger rolls more soak dice than the drones do.
But, whatever, we've been over this before and few if any here agree with me, so let it be.
| QUOTE (Cain) | ||
Too many programs reduces the Response rating, which probably reduces the System rating. So, if you've got Pilot 4 and Response 4, and you run 4 programs, your Response drops by one. (p212) And like the previous paragraph says, System cannot be higher than Response, so the Pilot gets reduced by one. Your Pilot/System rating lists how many programs you can run without incurring a penalty: when active programs = System, Response goes down by 1. So, the higher your System, the more programs you can run safely. The number of programs you can run at once is determined by your System, but your System is determined by your Response. |
Whoa, wait, really? Aargh, I'm a complete newb again now that we're using SR4.
You say that having too many programs loaded probably reduces your effective System rating? Or does it explicitly say that in the book? I can see why you could make that conclusion, but it seems like you could also just interpret it to be a restriction on the base ratings of devices.
Is there an official word on this? Or a Dumpshock consensus?
| QUOTE (Captain K) | ||||
Whoa, wait, really? Aargh, I'm a complete newb again now that we're using SR4. You say that having too many programs loaded probably reduces your effective System rating? Or does it explicitly say that in the book? I can see why you could make that conclusion, but it seems like you could also just interpret it to be a restriction on the base ratings of devices. Is there an official word on this? Or a Dumpshock consensus? |
Its kinda scattered in the book, buts its there:
System can never be higher than Response.
System=Pilot=Agent
You can run Responsex2 programs, then Response -1.
I.e. Response 3, running Pilot, Maneuver, Firewall, ClearSight, Autosoft(LMG), Defense would run them all at a maximum of rating 3.
But add 1 more program and Response drops to 2.
And no program can be higher rating than the System its on.
So first Pilot drops to 2, then all programs drop to 2.
This train of ruling actually means, pure RAW, that you would promptly go to Response 1, then Response 0 and crash or something. However, common sense says they probably mean for Response to go down 1 at 7 programs, then another -1 at 11 programs and then finally crash at 13 programs.
(Math done by taking Response 3x2=6+Response 2x2=10+1x2=12)
| QUOTE (Ophis) |
| @Butterblume - the max rating 4 seems reasonable, and is also true for skillsofts, the max rating for sofware to do skill is equal to very well trained, not the extensive experience/talent 5 and 6 represent. |
I agree to that. But i am sure players will ask for more evidence
.
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| if it can be bought separately, then it can be cracked separately. and hey, guess what? you can buy it separately. |
No, actually, you can't. You can recode the Firewall on your OS, but you can't purchase Firewall upgrades separately from System upgrades. The only purchaseable Matrix attribute upgrades are to the hardware atts, System and Response.
Someone mentioned using Machine Sprite to operate on drones. I'm thinking about doing the same thing but I'm baffled at what the sprite can actually do.
Let's say we have a machine sprite operating an unmodified Doberman with pilot 3, response 3, (I assume firewall 3 as well?), and all 5 autosofts are at rating 3. Let's say the sprite is rating 5, most likely what a technomancer with 5 resonance can compile on the fly without risking physical fading. Then the sprite will have the following stats:
Pilot 5, response 5, firewall 7, Matrix Init 10, IP 3
Skills: Computer, Electronic Warfare, Hardware (all at 5)
Complex Forms: Command
Powers: Diagnostics, Gremlins, Stability
Optional power: any 1 autosoft for operating drone
First of all, how does the sprite control the drone? Does it jump into the drone? Does it control the drone by using "Command" complex form?
If it jumps in, then the sprite uses its own attributes/skills/(autosofts?) for operating the drone. By this, I'm assuming the drone uses the sprite's pilot/response/firewall rating. But can the sprite still make use of the drone's own autosofts? If not, then the sprite only has one autosoft of its own from optional power. You would need a rating 15 sprite to be able to have all the autosofts for the drone to be fully functional.
Now if you rule that the sprite must issue commands to the drones via "Command" complex form, then why does the sprite have any autosoft listed as optional power?
To me, it seems a hybrid makes more sense. That is, I'd let the sprite jump into the drone, but can choose to use the sprite's skills/attributes/autosofts or that which the drone posesses. So in our example, the sprite/drone combo will have pilot 5, response 5, firewall 7, Matrix Init 10, IP 3, clearsight 3, defense 3, maneuver 3, targeting 5 (sprite's optional power), electronic warfare 5 (sprite's skill).
I hate the fact that I still have to persuade my GM about this, but oh well. What do you all think? Does anyone have a different way of running sprite controlled drones?
Let's say we have a machine sprite operating an unmodified Doberman with pilot 3, response 3, (I assume firewall 3 as well?), and all 5 autosofts are at rating 3. Let's say the sprite is rating 5, most likely what a technomancer with 5 resonance can compile on the fly without risking physical fading. Then the sprite will have the following stats:
Pilot 5, response 5, firewall 7, Matrix Init 10, IP 3
Skills: Computer, Electronic Warfare, Hardware (all at 5)
Complex Forms: Command
Powers: Diagnostics, Gremlins, Stability
Optional power: any 1 autosoft for operating drone
First of all, how does the sprite control the drone? Does it jump into the drone? Does it control the drone by using "Command" complex form?
If it jumps in, then the sprite uses its own attributes/skills/(autosofts?) for operating the drone. By this, I'm assuming the drone uses the sprite's pilot/response/firewall rating. But can the sprite still make use of the drone's own autosofts? If not, then the sprite only has one autosoft of its own from optional power. You would need a rating 15 sprite to be able to have all the autosofts for the drone to be fully functional.
Now if you rule that the sprite must issue commands to the drones via "Command" complex form, then why does the sprite have any autosoft listed as optional power?
To me, it seems a hybrid makes more sense. That is, I'd let the sprite jump into the drone, but can choose to use the sprite's skills/attributes/autosofts or that which the drone posesses. So in our example, the sprite/drone combo will have pilot 5, response 5, firewall 7, Matrix Init 10, IP 3, clearsight 3, defense 3, maneuver 3, targeting 5 (sprite's optional power), electronic warfare 5 (sprite's skill).
I hate the fact that I still have to persuade my GM about this, but oh well. What do you all think? Does anyone have a different way of running sprite controlled drones?
| QUOTE (Azathfeld) |
| No, actually, you can't. You can recode the Firewall on your OS, but you can't purchase Firewall upgrades separately from System upgrades. The only purchaseable Matrix attribute upgrades are to the hardware atts, System and Response. |
note that you code firewall and system separately (see page 240).
note that you buy firewall and system separately (see page 228).
it's on 2 places. how is it that you figure they can't be cracked separately?
as far as rating 4 being the best autosofts, i swear i remember reading it somewhere (not just a table), but i can't find it atm. 99% sure that's accurate though. of course, your GM could allow special cases (much like there is actually such a thing as response 7 and 8 commlinks, they are just so rare you're not likely to see them. ever. mostly used by militaries and such.)
the command program of the sprite would be used IMO, and would replace all attributes. i would also rule that the sprite can use the autosoft on itself (thereby giving it a skill equal to it's rating in one skill). after all, the sprite has a pilot rating, does it not?
since most tasks when remotely controlling a drone are based on command program + appropriate skill rating (Examples given are automotive mechanic + control to make a repair drone fix a vehicle, or command + vehicle skill to drive one) this effectively gives the sprite force x 2 as it's dice pool on certain rolls =)
also note that while a drone cannot do things for which it does not have an autosoft, machine sprites are not limited that way. thus, arguably a machine sprite can try to fire a gun without an appropriate autosoft.
| QUOTE (Jaid) | ||
note that you code firewall and system separately (see page 240). note that you buy firewall and system separately (see page 228). it's on 2 places. how is it that you figure they can't be cracked separately? |
Okay, you're right there. I was looking in the wrong spot, at commlink upgrades and not at programs.
| QUOTE |
| Someone mentioned using Machine Sprite to operate on drones. I'm thinking about doing the same thing but I'm baffled at what the sprite can actually do. Let's say we have a machine sprite operating an unmodified Doberman with pilot 3, response 3, (I assume firewall 3 as well?), and all 5 autosofts are at rating 3. Let's say the sprite is rating 5, most likely what a technomancer with 5 resonance can compile on the fly without risking physical fading. Then the sprite will have the following stats: Pilot 5, response 5, firewall 7, Matrix Init 10, IP 3 Skills: Computer, Electronic Warfare, Hardware (all at 5) Complex Forms: Command Powers: Diagnostics, Gremlins, Stability Optional power: any 1 autosoft for operating drone First of all, how does the sprite control the drone? Does it jump into the drone? Does it control the drone by using "Command" complex form? |
Either. The sprite acts as any other rigger, in this case, and can use its Command CF to give the drone orders, after subscribing it, or can "jump" into it, and have it act on the sprite's initiative.
Note that the drone is always a node that the techno is not currently "in", so it always counts as a remote task to jump into it.
| QUOTE |
| If it jumps in, then the sprite uses its own attributes/skills/(autosofts?) for operating the drone. By this, I'm assuming the drone uses the sprite's pilot/response/firewall rating. But can the sprite still make use of the drone's own autosofts? If not, then the sprite only has one autosoft of its own from optional power. You would need a rating 15 sprite to be able to have all the autosofts for the drone to be fully functional. |
You've got it. Essentially, the sprite is better off issuing commands, except for the specific things that it knows how to do better. The sprite also gets Electronic Warfare as a skill, and doesn't need an autosoft for it. Basically, sometimes it's a good idea for the drone to jump in, and sometimes it's not.
| QUOTE |
To me, it seems a hybrid makes more sense. That is, I'd let the sprite jump into the drone, but can choose to use the sprite's skills/attributes/autosofts or that which the drone posesses. So in our example, the sprite/drone combo will have pilot 5, response 5, firewall 7, Matrix Init 10, IP 3, clearsight 3, defense 3, maneuver 3, targeting 5 (sprite's optional power), electronic warfare 5 (sprite's skill). I hate the fact that I still have to persuade my GM about this, but oh well. What do you all think? Does anyone have a different way of running sprite controlled drones? |
I wouldn't allow the hybrid, but I don't think it's game-breaking. You're just as well off, though, letting the sprite itself decide when to jump in and when not, based on what it's good at.
Note that you'll generally want a registered sprite for this, and since you're doing it in advance, you can probably handle a touch higher rating than you're used to.
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