Dumpshock Forums > 2 melee weapons

Willis

Mar 22 2006, 09:12 AM

I have a player that wants to use 2 melee weapons. He took ambidexterous, so he doesn't take a penalty when using his off hand. a melee attack is a complex action, I know, but if he has a weapon in his other hand, could he split his dice pool and swing them both? sorry if this is a dumb question.

Willis

The Jopp

Mar 22 2006, 09:32 AM

That's how I would use it. he can use one stun weapon and one physical weapon but splits the pool.

Divine Virus

Mar 22 2006, 03:04 PM

Yes, whenever you make an attack with a weapon in each hand you split the dice pool. Its often questionable as to weither its worth it, and pursonally I don't think it is. The amount of extra base damage ain't the same as that offered by the extra hits (not to mention increased change of hitting) unless you are a troll with near max strenth. Or you are using two monofilament whips. However if you do that your chance of glitching increases greatly, and I hope your GM makes you bleed.

Butterblume

Mar 22 2006, 04:39 PM

QUOTE (The Jopp)

he can use one stun weapon and one physical weapon but splits the pool.

Weird way to make fights longer (filling two different damage tracks).

Azralon

Mar 22 2006, 05:01 PM

QUOTE (Butterblume)

QUOTE (The Jopp)

he can use one stun weapon and one physical weapon but splits the pool.

Weird way to make fights longer (filling two different damage tracks).

Good point.

GrinderTheTroll

Mar 22 2006, 06:35 PM

QUOTE (Divine Virus)

Yes, whenever you make an attack with a weapon in each hand you split the dice pool. Its often questionable as to weither its worth it, and pursonally I don't think it is. The amount of extra base damage ain't the same as that offered by the extra hits (not to mention increased change of hitting) unless you are a troll with near max strenth. Or you are using two monofilament whips. However if you do that your chance of glitching increases greatly, and I hope your GM makes you bleed.

I asked the same question a few weeks ago and no one could point out a page that could make any reference to using 2 melee weapons at once. There is mention of 2 ranged weapons, but not 2 melee weapons. Lots of opinions about it, but nothing RAW.

Did you house rule this or is there indeed a page reference?

Abschalten

Mar 22 2006, 08:04 PM

Personally, I think if the two weapons are meant to be used in a pair (like two sais) then I'd just count it as a standard melee attack. Remember, combat's an abstract. If they learned to fight with two weapons, then I see no reason to have them split up the pool. As a personal fan of sais IRL and somebody who practices with them, I would never try to hit with both at once, but rather use them in a variety of maneuvers until I could get that one nice hit in.

Rooks

Mar 22 2006, 08:21 PM

That would still mean theres an advantage of having two weapons over one you can use one weapon to attack and one to defend like fencing with a main gauche but with one weapon you need to attack and defend with one weapon

Geekkake

Mar 22 2006, 08:23 PM

QUOTE (Abschalten)

Personally, I think if the two weapons are meant to be used in a pair (like two sais) then I'd just count it as a standard melee attack. Remember, combat's an abstract. If they learned to fight with two weapons, then I see no reason to have them split up the pool. As a personal fan of sais IRL and somebody who practices with them, I would never try to hit with both at once, but rather use them in a variety of maneuvers until I could get that one nice hit in.

The plural of "sai" is "sai". Foolio.

I have to disagree with your interpretation of the 2-weapon melee rules. While it completely makes sense, and if the player was explaining it accordingly, I'd treat the pair as one weapon, any attempts to use 2 weapons not intended as a pair, or for two separate tasks (attacking two foes, one attacking and one parrying, etc.), I'd declare the split dice rules.

Abschalten

Mar 22 2006, 08:25 PM

QUOTE (Geekkake)

QUOTE (Abschalten @ Mar 22 2006, 03:04 PM)

Personally, I think if the two weapons are meant to be used in a pair (like two sais) then I'd just count it as a standard melee attack. Remember, combat's an abstract. If they learned to fight with two weapons, then I see no reason to have them split up the pool. As a personal fan of sais IRL and somebody who practices with them, I would never try to hit with both at once, but rather use them in a variety of maneuvers until I could get that one nice hit in.

The plural of "sai" is "sai". Foolio.

I have to disagree with your interpretation of the 2-weapon melee rules. While it completely makes sense, and if the player was explaining it accordingly, I'd treat the pair as one weapon, any attempts to use 2 weapons not intended as a pair, or for two separate tasks (attacking two foes, one attacking and one parrying, etc.), I'd declare the split dice rules.

If I were using both my saiseses to attack two different people, sure, I'd split the pool. That's canon anyway, if you're using melee to attack two seperate targets with a single Complex Action.

GrinderTheTroll

Mar 22 2006, 08:28 PM

QUOTE (Geekkake)

QUOTE (Abschalten @ Mar 22 2006, 03:04 PM)

Personally, I think if the two weapons are meant to be used in a pair (like two sais) then I'd just count it as a standard melee attack. Remember, combat's an abstract. If they learned to fight with two weapons, then I see no reason to have them split up the pool. As a personal fan of sais IRL and somebody who practices with them, I would never try to hit with both at once, but rather use them in a variety of maneuvers until I could get that one nice hit in.

The plural of "sai" is "sai". Foolio.

I have to disagree with your interpretation of the 2-weapon melee rules. While it completely makes sense, and if the player was explaining it accordingly, I'd treat the pair as one weapon, any attempts to use 2 weapons not intended as a pair, or for two separate tasks (attacking two foes, one attacking and one parrying, etc.), I'd declare the split dice rules.

Problem is, in SR4 there is technically no difference in using 2 swords vs. using 1 sword and 1 hand. In real terms, defending against 2 such opponents would require a bit more finesse.

Geekkake

Mar 22 2006, 08:30 PM

QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)

QUOTE (Geekkake @ Mar 22 2006, 01:23 PM)

QUOTE (Abschalten @ Mar 22 2006, 03:04 PM)

Personally, I think if the two weapons are meant to be used in a pair (like two sais) then I'd just count it as a standard melee attack. Remember, combat's an abstract. If they learned to fight with two weapons, then I see no reason to have them split up the pool. As a personal fan of sais IRL and somebody who practices with them, I would never try to hit with both at once, but rather use them in a variety of maneuvers until I could get that one nice hit in.

The plural of "sai" is "sai". Foolio.

I have to disagree with your interpretation of the 2-weapon melee rules. While it completely makes sense, and if the player was explaining it accordingly, I'd treat the pair as one weapon, any attempts to use 2 weapons not intended as a pair, or for two separate tasks (attacking two foes, one attacking and one parrying, etc.), I'd declare the split dice rules.

Problem is, in SR4 there is technically no difference in using 2 swords vs. using 1 sword and 1 hand. In real terms, defending against 2 such opponents would require a bit more finesse.

That's what modifiers and/or Threshold is for. Though I'd lean toward modifiers to make the chance of glitching higher.

Azralon

Mar 22 2006, 08:57 PM

QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll @ Mar 22 2006, 04:28 PM)

Problem is, in SR4 there is technically no difference in using 2 swords vs. using 1 sword and 1 hand.

Which isn't an immediately-evident problem until people start using different types of weapons in each hand. At that point you have differing damage codes, different reach values, and different skill ratings to potentially worry about.

GrinderTheTroll

Mar 22 2006, 11:18 PM

QUOTE (Azralon)

QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll @ Mar 22 2006, 04:28 PM)

Problem is, in SR4 there is technically no difference in using 2 swords vs. using 1 sword and 1 hand.

Which isn't an immediately-evident problem until people start using different types of weapons in each hand. At that point you have differing damage codes, different reach values, and different skill ratings to potentially worry about.

Right. Which is the point of the original poster. What to do?

neko128

Mar 22 2006, 11:46 PM

QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)

QUOTE (Azralon @ Mar 22 2006, 01:57 PM)

QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll @ Mar 22 2006, 04:28 PM)

Problem is, in SR4 there is technically no difference in using 2 swords vs. using 1 sword and 1 hand.

Which isn't an immediately-evident problem until people start using different types of weapons in each hand. At that point you have differing damage codes, different reach values, and different skill ratings to potentially worry about.

Right. Which is the point of the original poster. What to do?

Adapt the rules for "leading with a cyberarm" from page 335? I mean, they boil down to "use the one you want", but it does apply. A person with a cyberarm can easily have different damage values from their two arms.

Rooks

Mar 23 2006, 12:13 AM

QUOTE (Azralon)

QUOTE (Butterblume @ Mar 22 2006, 12:39 PM)

QUOTE (The Jopp)

he can use one stun weapon and one physical weapon but splits the pool.

Weird way to make fights longer (filling two different damage tracks).

Good point.

not unless he needs to rescue one or keep one alive for questioning and kill the rest

Grinder

Mar 23 2006, 10:18 AM

But with two melee weapons he's likely to attack only one opponent at a time, so it doesn't make much sense then.

Attacking two guys at the same time would again have him split his dice pool and that's no good idea.

Edward

Mar 23 2006, 12:31 PM

if when your fighting with 2 sai against one opponent, for example, you simply treat them as a single weapon what is the mechanics difference between that and having your second hand empty.

Most people would consider it an advantage to have a second weapon /if/ you know how to use it properly. There is however no off hand weapon skill to add dice (as there was in SR3) at least making 2 attacks (splitting the dice pool) gives a difference and the possibility of building a character that benefits from it (even if that is only the uber strength builds).

Edward