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JongWK
Story

Holy crap, they're hemorraging more money than what my country makes in exports.
SL James
Don't worry. Look at Caterpillar. Once the older union guys retire (and die) they can hire people in the U.S who are literally making 1/3 to 1/4 of what the old hands are. But, yeah. Like someone once said, right now GM is an insurance company that occasionally makes cars. They just need to survive for the next 15 years or so. Hello Rust Belt Renaissance. Goodbye blue-collar middle class.
mfb
but when they die, who will be there to protect the workers?
SL James
That's just it. No one gives a fuck about the workers. If the versted members of the union did, they'd never have accepted the two-tiered systems that allow this turnaround in the first place. They sacrificed the wages and benefits of the next generation of workers (who may or may not even be in the union) to protect their own interests, so that someone who barely made it out of high school makes around $30-40/hr (or even $50) and almost as much in insurance and retirement benefits. Caterpillar is expecting to grow and actually hire more people in the next few years - at around $12-14/hr and far fewer benefits.

Meanwhile, bankruptcy is not exactly the worst thing that could happen to GM. To a certain degree, doing so and getting the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation to eat some of that $64 billion would help them a lot, much like it did for United.
mfb
haha. yeah. it's hilarious (to the right mindset) how much of history is comprised of old people forcing anal intercourse on young people.
SL James
Yep. That's why I haven't expected to collect a pension or Social Security when (if) I retire since I was in high school.

The perception thing is also a problem. I hate American cars (which all of the ones I've had were) and will never buy a new American car even if it never breaks down, never needs gas, and does everything for me short of wiping my ass.
nezumi
QUOTE (mfb)
haha. yeah. it's hilarious (to the right mindset) how much of history is comprised of old people forcing anal intercourse on young people.

Yes... And it makes me sad that the Baby Boomers almost out number my generation frown.gif

I have been considering emigrating as more of the boomers retire. I'm not so worried that social security won't be around for me (I already know it won't be), I'm worried paying social security for the boomers is going to bankrupt the government before I'm even looking at retirement.

Maybe we should put a maximum age limit on politicians? I'd be curious to see what happens to the national debt when the people making it realize they aren't ten years from death or retirement nyahnyah.gif
SL James
Heh. The total amount of debt in this country makes GM look pretty good. It's bad enough to give people nightmares.

And emigrating isn't an option because if the U.S. defaults then a lot of other places are going to be in deep shit, too.
Platinum
As someone that works for the city of Oshawa, which is (GM town) it has been interesting watching the company that made us shoot themselves in the foot.

Aging workers and unions are only one small part of the problem. The major problem is that the product sucks. It loses way too much value when you drive it off the lot, there are recalls galore because they use parts which are tendered by the lowest bidder (which means lower quality)


:ack gotta jet .. will edit this post in a bit.
SL James
Yeah, well, like I said. Buy an American car (especially GM)?

Pthbbbbbt.
stevebugge
QUOTE (Platinum @ Mar 22 2006, 01:49 PM)
As someone that works for the city of Oshawa, which is (GM town) it has been interesting watching the company that made us shoot themselves in the foot.

Aging workers and unions are only one small part of the problem.  The major problem is that the product sucks.  It loses way too much value when you drive it off the lot, there are recalls galore because they use parts which are tendered by the lowest bidder (which means lower quality)


:ack gotta jet .. will edit this post in a bit.

I've heard the problems are actually indirectly related in that GM has had to rob it's R&D funds to keep the benefits packages won by the UAW in the 80's & 90's funded and as a result they are almost a decade behind Toyota and Honda in product development.

ON A MORE SR RELATED NOTE: has anyone had Unions involved in any of their games? Either as a target, a Johnson, or interloper?
SL James
HAHAHA

"What are unions?"

AFSCME might be around, and the teachers' unions. Maybe.
stevebugge
Goverment employee's Unions too. And pro-sport players Unions probably still exist. How about Dockworkers? Unions seem like they are just politically connected enough and some of them have just enough ties with organized crime to have survived in some fashion. Also they may still play a role in the Japanacorps, where the unions and corporations work in a much more collaborative fashion then American and European Unions do. Of course a Union in Renraku would probably exists more to insure employee loyalty and would really represent workers to management more symbolically than anything else.
Wounded Ronin
I think that revolting Midwestern auto workers, GM, and American cars that don't work are extremely SR related because it's linked to the 80s and Japanese auto imports, where the Japanese cars were better and created the perception that anything asian is automatically better.

The way I see it, SR campaigns should make at least one reference to useless auto workers protesting because they can't even make a decent car anymore.
emo samurai
How are the unions in your games, morally? In the SR metaplot, the developers basically blame the encroachment of corporate liberties on unions.
SL James
QUOTE (stevebugge)
Goverment employee's Unions too.

That's what AFSCME is - American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees.
stevebugge
QUOTE (SL James @ Mar 22 2006, 03:10 PM)
QUOTE (stevebugge @ Mar 22 2006, 04:41 PM)
Goverment employee's Unions too.

That's what AFSCME is - American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees.

Yeah and them too! smile.gif

I never knew what their official alphabet soup designation was.
PBTHHHHT
Don't forget that federal workers in unions can't strike. Stems from the 80's when the air traffic controllers tried striking. Reagan smacked them down.
stevebugge
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT)
Don't forget that federal workers in unions can't strike. Stems from the 80's when the air traffic controllers tried striking. Reagan smacked them down.

Which would be just why they might hire some runners to help with that next CBA wink.gif

"Hey look what we caught President Colloton doing, and we got video too, so about that 15% wage increase...."
Kanada Ten
I've kept the construction unions (the Mafia ties are just too convenient), but nixed the government ones since they hardly employ "ground floor" people. It's all machines until middle management, and services are all corporate run.

I've never considered the teacher's union, but with the threats of privatization and VT, they'd better keep the collective head down.

And then we have the insect unions... @,@
nick012000
Why doesn't GM just go "Fuck you!" to the unions, stop paying the medical fees, and fire anyone who strikes (replacing them with non-union people)?

Also, I'd bet the teamster's union survives into SR, even if most of their workers were replaced with drones...
SL James
They employ 1.1 million people who collectively own almost ten times the worth of GM in assets. If GM pisses off the UAW, then GM dies and the union members get hired for new jobs from DaimlerChrysler and Ford when they rush to fill the 26% market share void left behind as GM implodes.

Because by the time they hire and train replacements for those 1.1 million employees ... it's too late. But that's just my conjecture. The article actually explains why it's in GM's interest not to piss off the union better than I can without going off on a flight of fancy.
nick012000
So they work out a deal with the US Department of Immigration to import workers from Mexico or China.
Platinum
QUOTE (nick012000 @ Mar 22 2006, 10:16 PM)
Why doesn't GM just go "Fuck you!" to the unions, stop paying the medical fees, and fire anyone who strikes (replacing them with non-union people)?

Also, I'd bet the teamster's union survives into SR, even if most of their workers were replaced with drones...

it's not really the unions that are killing GM ... it is the bad product decisions and quality.
The Aztec was a complete automotive disaster. It is what happens when you let a bunch of yuppie execs tell the product line what to develop instead of doing market research. The CEO and board are making really bad decisions. Guess where they are focusing all of their development dollars. That's right .... SUVs. 3 different types of gas guzzling, inefficient SUVs.

GM's vehicles are not moving because no one likes to lose 1/2 the investment by just driving it off the lot.

GMAC financing was their only money making operation which they are selling for 2.2B, but since gas prices went up considerably, people are buying less SUV's, AND the only way to move the overstocked cars is to offer 0%. (which means little profit margin, and only after the vehicle is paid off) GM workers make $20/hour, but they work a huge amount of overtime. $20 an hour is not a huge amount of money. (but yes I do think it is more than a job any monkey can do, should pay.

Slap recalls on top, because they are using sub standard, lowest bidder parts, and you have a giant recipe for a disaster. Over-seas car manufacturers are winning because they have higher quality standards, and spend more thought in the process.
mfb
QUOTE (nick012000)
So they work out a deal with the US Department of Immigration to import workers from Mexico or China.

a) watch GM's popularity tanks as the concept of "Buy American" loses all credibility, b) it's not like everybody in the union are assembly-line workers who can be easily replaced by some random guy with a few days' training; many of the union workers are guys who perform mid- and high-level work within the company, and c) replacing every single member of your production process is not viable for a company like GM. it's not like the union at GM is some pissant startup who's ticked off every other related union during its climb up from the bottom--these guys are very big and very established.
Platinum
Also you can pick up and move the operation to a cheaper country ... but then who will have the money to buy your cars then?
The Stainless Steel Rat
QUOTE (stevebugge)
ON A MORE SR RELATED NOTE: has anyone had Unions involved in any of their games? Either as a target, a Johnson, or interloper?

Yeah, in my most recent campaign I had a longshoremans union working most of the Seattle docks. The Corps had tried to wipe them out, but the Mafia kept them alive in order to maintain control and win hearts and minds... I used them to great effect as a chess piece the power players (Mafia, Yaks, and Corps) were struggling over.
tisoz
QUOTE (Platinum @ Mar 22 2006, 08:50 PM)
Also you can pick up and move the operation to a cheaper country ... but then who will have the money to buy your cars then?

The same people who can afford to buy refrigerators? Or other appliances or TVs.

The local GE plant is moving to Mexico, already has moved a bunch of jobs. This is despite being given their plant for free. The government bought it from them and let them use it for free in the hope of keeping them. GE just saw that as a way to cut expenses until they are gone, also a way to cut fixed costs so they could cut jobs (variable costs). The various levels of government have given GE all kinds of tax abatements, cuts, incentives to induce them to stay. Again , it is just making it cheaper to operate until they leave.

As a small businessmsn, I would love to get the @#$%ing deals they are throwing away to get a company to stay to open and develop a startup business, or even to take over the local plant. It is not like the plant is losing money, it is just that GE feels it needs to maximize shareholder profits and moving lets them earn a little higher return. They seem to overlook if every corporation did the same, no one will be able to afford their product.

And I agree totally with the union guys only caring about their self (which undermines the entire idea of union.) They have constantly, consistently taken every cut as long as it doesn't get them. A reason GE has been cutting the jobs by 10 or 20%, 80 and 90% can outvote the losers even when some of the next to be cut see they better vote with the cutees because their job is next. They have also been offering pay raises while shifting funding for benefits from corporation to employee. The high school dropout that has been working there 20 years sees a $1 an hour raise proposed, but overlooks that they now have to pay what amounts to an extra $1 an hour for their insurance benefits, and they are getting taxed on the extra income, so they actually take home less. And these same idiots are getting to the age where they are going to start needing to use the insurance, so when they finally lose retire at 30 years, or take another great deal and retire early, instead of having company paid health insurance they are going to have insurance they can't afford the premiums of.

I could go on and on. Wageslaves and exploitation.

Someone mentioned baby boomers, what sucks for me and people my age is that we were at the tail end of the boom, so you have had this huge labor force ahead of you. When those jobs finally open up, the company is not going to want hire an old guy that is going to be retiring shortly after the guy he replaced. They are going to hire a nice, young, healthy guy (those medical bennies are cheaper if the worce force is 20 and 30 rather than 40 and 50) that will be there hopefully 20 years.

In SR, this is like having all these elf and dwarf employees entering the work force and holding these jobs for multi human, ork and trolll lifetimes.
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