Full Version: Dealing with Magic
One big problem I'm having as a GM is dealing with magic. The mage player in my game has loaded himself up with an array of spells that can make my life painful, including Levitate, Improved Invisibility, Clairvoyance, and Influence. All of them he can manage to cast without taking any drain most of the time.
Do people have tips for designing runs that cannot be "ruined" by these spells? I like it when my players come up with interesting solutions to problems, but too often I'm finding spells like these make it possible to just avoid the problem entirely. I want to try to keep the gameworld as reasonable as possible and not make it so the character feels like I'm putting stuff in place just to stop him, but still... It's kinda annoying when an improved invisibility/levitated character just flies by every guard in a building thus avoiding any interesting encounters I had planned.
Also, how prevalent should astral barriers and other magical security measures be in Shadowrun? Right now I kinda have it so labs doing secret research usually have some kind of strong magical security, but your standard office building has little to none.
Thanks
In our world, most 'interesting' places have magical security, even if it is just a watcher spirit. Actually, those darn watcher spirits do more to hinder us than anything else, I think... just the threat of being seen by one makes us much more cautious. I wouldn't think Bob's Auto Rentals keeps a watcher spirit on duty, but most office complexes do - at least at night - as part of their contract with Night Errant or Lone Star. Wards are common in executive offices, and any mid-level business is going to have a mage on call as part of their security contract. High level businesses and secret research facilities will have a mage physically on duty at all times. Casinos, too (darn it!).
Another trick is to make sure that ALL the team needs to get into the building. It takes a pretty talented mage to sustain invisibilty on herself/himself, a hacker, and a street sam or two. And, if he or she is doing all that, it only takes a single warded hallway to screw everything up...
There are passive magical deterents, too... plants that react to astral activity, walls covered in ivy, not to mention barriers composed of bacteria and the like. Some of those are expensive, some are not. Having pay data on a secure server in a basement, with the only access by elevator, and an astrally aware plant sitting next to the elevator doors... or a ward on the elevator... or a watcher spirit in the hallway... fairly cheap, but effective.
Of course, if they just want a free rental car, then let 'em go after Bob's and don't worry about it. But the fun stuff isn't going to be at Bob's, is it?
Another trick is to make sure that ALL the team needs to get into the building. It takes a pretty talented mage to sustain invisibilty on herself/himself, a hacker, and a street sam or two. And, if he or she is doing all that, it only takes a single warded hallway to screw everything up...
There are passive magical deterents, too... plants that react to astral activity, walls covered in ivy, not to mention barriers composed of bacteria and the like. Some of those are expensive, some are not. Having pay data on a secure server in a basement, with the only access by elevator, and an astrally aware plant sitting next to the elevator doors... or a ward on the elevator... or a watcher spirit in the hallway... fairly cheap, but effective.
Of course, if they just want a free rental car, then let 'em go after Bob's and don't worry about it. But the fun stuff isn't going to be at Bob's, is it?
Shadowrun is a gameworld were vast resources are available to even the most modestly designed character. In the form of magic, but also in the sheer fact that information is so readily accessable on the matrix. The thing to remember is that all those things are available to other people also.
As a GM, I'm pretty fast to take advantage of magical spells and spirits—as well as high tech forensics and hacking—to make the lives difficult for my players. As a result, the questions you ask yourself has been asked the other way around in my group.
What you need to solve this is to have an understanding between players and GM of what is possible, what is common practice and how it is usually countered. There is a status quo, or else there would be no crime- or no law, respectively. Knowing that there IS supposed to be a status quo, all you have to do is decide how it is manifesting itself. For example; in previous editions of the game, astral projection was "discovered" by players to be extremely exploitable. In SR4, it is often stated that astral snooping is recogniced by companies and governments as a serious problem, and that vast resources are being spent to protect from it.
As a GM, I'm pretty fast to take advantage of magical spells and spirits—as well as high tech forensics and hacking—to make the lives difficult for my players. As a result, the questions you ask yourself has been asked the other way around in my group.
What you need to solve this is to have an understanding between players and GM of what is possible, what is common practice and how it is usually countered. There is a status quo, or else there would be no crime- or no law, respectively. Knowing that there IS supposed to be a status quo, all you have to do is decide how it is manifesting itself. For example; in previous editions of the game, astral projection was "discovered" by players to be extremely exploitable. In SR4, it is often stated that astral snooping is recogniced by companies and governments as a serious problem, and that vast resources are being spent to protect from it.
Watcher spirits bring up another thing. I guess I'm not as up on magic rules as I really should be, but is there any way for players to neutralize a watcher spirit without the mage which created it knowing? Or do they just have to sneak around?
contain it within an astral barrier spell. Poor little thing cant do anything then, 'course it only works temporarily.
You could sustain it; you wouldn't need a very powerful focus for that.
best magic counter In my experience
use every magic trick they use on you, on them
let your players invent the counters for you
use every magic trick they use on you, on them
let your players invent the counters for you
| QUOTE (rackrmnn) |
| I want to try to keep the gameworld as reasonable as possible and not make it so the character feels like I'm putting stuff in place just to stop him, but still... It's kinda annoying when an improved invisibility/levitated character just flies by every guard in a building thus avoiding any interesting encounters I had planned. |
That one's easy. Improved invisibility doesn't fool pheremone scanners or ultrasound detectors. Nor will it stop the door from telling the security computer that it's just been opened and nobody with a proper RFID tag was present. Of course he can fly by every guard in the building, but presumably he needs to interact with an object at some point, like a door or a keyboard or an elevator button. So he might be waiting around a while for someone to open whatever door it is he needs to get through, and he'd better hope none of the many, many people passing by in the meantime makes a perception (4) test (or whatever the threshold would be).
Given that there are so many magically active people, any non-retarded security planner would have at least SOME way of detecting invisible, astrally projecting, or Concealed intruders. Watcher spirits were mentioned, but that's just one way. You might imagine that a company like Knight Errant would recruit people capable of astrally perceiving but not wielders of great magical power (such as an adept with Magic 1 or 2 and the Astral Perception power). Dual-natured critters, like Barghests, are sometimes used in security (why not some dual-natured Awakened geese? Easier to deal with, less dangerous, cheaper, and they raise a hell of a racket when they see someone astral or invisible approaching the building).
There are plenty of ways to guard against invisible levitating intruders; it's just more difficult than guarding against visible, walking intruders. As it should be.
Another point is to have situations that aren't short-circuted by an invisible levitating guy. Maybe you could provide a couple examples where this has been a problem.
Well, to tell you the truth the invisible levitating thing never actually happened. That was an exaggeration. Flying invisible people have been used a couple of times, though.
As far as countering improved invisibility in general, I guess I could increase the number of pheromone and ultrasound detectors. As is, I was considering them on the rarer side.
For clairvoyance it's occured to me that most people turn out the lights when they leave a room. Doesn't do you a whole lot of good to look through a wall if it's pitch black inside.
What's also kinda annoying is that it slows down the game, too. Like I said, this guy almost never takes damage from drain when he casts these spells. When paranoia sets in he starts clairvoyancing everything.
Is he not taking drain because he casts at a low Force, or because he has killer Willpower and Magic (and a focus)? If the former, keep in mind that the number of hits on a spell are limited by its Force, so no matter how many hits he actually *rolled* for that Force 3 Improved Invisibility, it's not stronger than 3 hits. Someone might make a Perception roll good enough to spot that.
Magic in the 6th World isn't a secret, and professional security will at the very least be briefed about spells like Mask and Invisibility. They might also have Hell Hounds or bound spirits or their own magician. Don't feel guilty about putting things in to stop the players - security doesn't feel guilty about putting things in to stop the thieves.
And don't forget that NPCs get Edge. Use it to bust through that Invisibility spell. And don't forget that the PC can still be heard, which is just a perception test.
And don't forget that NPCs get Edge. Use it to bust through that Invisibility spell. And don't forget that the PC can still be heard, which is just a perception test.
You can never have to many Barghests. When invisimage gets to resist paralyzing howl he'll learn to be more careful. When he has to resist 20 paralyzing howls at the same time he'll die.
| QUOTE (rackrmnn @ Mar 25 2006, 06:33 PM) |
| As far as countering improved invisibility in general, I guess I could increase the number of pheromone and ultrasound detectors. As is, I was considering them on the rarer side. |
Just watching CSI yesterday they had a pheromone sensor that works on modern real world technology.
You don't need magic to sniff someone out. In fact, 5000-100000 years or so ago, a piece of technology came into human hands that can sniff out nearly anything. It's called 'dog'.
Police, military, and security forces today still rely on this piece of ancient technology.
Your note on turning out lights is good, but in office buildings and shops lights are often left on 24/7 - sometimes dimmer when people aren't there, sometimes not. Often this is a security measure and is needed if you rely on video cameras.
Thermal sensing tech already exists in the modern world, as do vibration sensors.
The magic bullet though, is a DNA scan. Human beings shed skin cells and hairs like crazy everywhere they go. Most of the dust in your house is actually tiny pieces of you.
After any crime, it's standard procedure to check for blood, skin, hair, fingerprints, and so on. As tech improves we're getting better and better at working with less and less residue left behind. Watch CSI a few times and consider what an added 50 years of advances would do for the teams on that show...
https://www.evidencemagazine.com/issues/feb04/FDCW.htm
(we're almost already there at the ability to get your DNA from dust)
That's after the fact scanning, but imagine the following idea: a corp has the DNA profile of all authorized staff on record. In the air conditioning vents it scans DNA of all human particulate matter that moves through the system's filters. At night after everyone goes home they turn up the fans to move air even faster. Consider that the pump on my fish tank, for $40, moves a hundred gallons an hour, and was built mid-90s using tech produced in the early 1900s... so by 2070... surely I could move more air than that around very quickly.
I would suspect that within 5-10 minutes of entering a building, any shed DNA would be in my computer system, and if it didn't get a match, security would know. Connect that to a cyber dog, and the dog might know exactly -who- it is being sent in to bite... and it wouldn't care one dime that it couldn't see them... Dogs today can already be trained to attack a chosen scent. That ability has existed for well over a few thousand years.
Point here is that you don't need much to counter - just think of everyday things, and watch some detective or crime shows to see some modern day tricks.
Can you only mask yourself if you have the metamagic? Plus, air-borne DNA sensors would sort of break the game utterly. There's no way to defeat that without a bomb or something.
Or hacking it.
| QUOTE (arcady) |
| That's after the fact scanning, but imagine the following idea: a corp has the DNA profile of all authorized staff on record. In the air conditioning vents it scans DNA of all human particulate matter that moves through the system's filters. At night after everyone goes home they turn up the fans to move air even faster. Consider that the pump on my fish tank, for $40, moves a hundred gallons an hour, and was built mid-90s using tech produced in the early 1900s... so by 2070... surely I could move more air than that around very quickly. I would suspect that within 5-10 minutes of entering a building, any shed DNA would be in my computer system, and if it didn't get a match, security would know. Connect that to a cyber dog, and the dog might know exactly -who- it is being sent in to bite... and it wouldn't care one dime that it couldn't see them... Dogs today can already be trained to attack a chosen scent. That ability has existed for well over a few thousand years. Point here is that you don't need much to counter - just think of everyday things, and watch some detective or crime shows to see some modern day tricks. |
There are several gigantic problems with that. First, most shed skin and hair are heavier than and will simply fall to the ground. Second, People come into contect with many other people thorughout the day and many peple come into offices for various reasons. The business guest, the guy you shook hands with earlier, and a random sex partner will all show up on such an indicriminant system and set off an alarm.
Third, DNA is not static. It changes over time. It also doesn't change uniformly. It is quite possible for two cells from the same person to have significantly different DNA and thus set off the alarm. No DNA match can be 100% accurate for this reason.
HOW much would it change? The thought's kind of scary.
How expensive is DNA testing technology? How much time and lab equipment does it take? Are these factors necessarily reducable, and to what degree? Not everything follows Moore's Law. (And even Moore's Law shall inevitably break)
Even if it is possible to reclaim DNA from dust, just how intensive would the lab work be to organize and screen all that data? I can imagine that unless the atmosphere of an office was hermetically sealed, you would have DNA from everyone who passed by that building as well as anyone who came in contact with an employee. Even if you could screen it all, the data would not necessarily be meaningful.
Collecting DNA from blood or hair is far more effective because you can trace the who/what/where/why of how they got there in the first place. And in an area with enough traffic hair isn't necessarily that useful. But blood is almost always more effective due to the uncommon, or unique circumstances by which it is left behind. Its presence is more meaningful.
That said, game wise things should be utilized in moderation. The power of forensics and Big Brother is best left in the GM's hands.
Even if it is possible to reclaim DNA from dust, just how intensive would the lab work be to organize and screen all that data? I can imagine that unless the atmosphere of an office was hermetically sealed, you would have DNA from everyone who passed by that building as well as anyone who came in contact with an employee. Even if you could screen it all, the data would not necessarily be meaningful.
Collecting DNA from blood or hair is far more effective because you can trace the who/what/where/why of how they got there in the first place. And in an area with enough traffic hair isn't necessarily that useful. But blood is almost always more effective due to the uncommon, or unique circumstances by which it is left behind. Its presence is more meaningful.
That said, game wise things should be utilized in moderation. The power of forensics and Big Brother is best left in the GM's hands.
| QUOTE (emo samurai @ Mar 25 2006, 11:28 PM) |
| HOW much would it change? The thought's kind of scary. |
Enough that some mutated cells grow and out control in the bodies of some people, eventually killing them if these cells can't be contained and removed through surgery or killed with massive doses of gama radiation and/or chemical poisions.
According to SOTA '63 DNA scanners aren't accurate enough to be admissable in court and they can easily be fooled by sufficient DNA masking.
| QUOTE |
| One big problem I'm having as a GM is dealing with magic. The mage player in my game has loaded himself up with an array of spells that can make my life painful, including Levitate, Improved Invisibility, Clairvoyance, and Influence. All of them he can manage to cast without taking any drain most of the time. |
These are all very nice to some extent, but don't solve a few critical problems, like the fact that - even if invisible, aware of where every guard is, and able to hover - he will eventually have to interact with an object. Whether it's opening a door, or picking up a chip, at some point he'll have to do something noticeable.
| QUOTE |
| Do people have tips for designing runs that cannot be "ruined" by these spells? I like it when my players come up with interesting solutions to problems, but too often I'm finding spells like these make it possible to just avoid the problem entirely. I want to try to keep the gameworld as reasonable as possible and not make it so the character feels like I'm putting stuff in place just to stop him, but still... It's kinda annoying when an improved invisibility/levitated character just flies by every guard in a building thus avoiding any interesting encounters I had planned. |
Well, to say first, there's no way to make a run that can't be ruined by SOMETHING. You're only human, and - sadly - your runners are human, too. Some days, no matter how long you spend trying to plan things, they'll just see something you missed, and you're going to have to think on your feet and move on. That's the entire point of being a GM, filling in the gaps and fielding the curves; otherwise, the characters are playing a choose-your-own-adventure book.
That being said, here's a few ideas.
-Air pressure sensors. If a room is sealed for the night, there's no particular reason why the ventilation system can't generate a slight over-pressure, which can be detected. Among other things, it helps to keep it clean, because dust tends to be kept out, and congregate in the places where air escapes (under doors, etcetera). If a door opens, the room will equalize with the hall outside, and the pressure sensor notices the difference.
-Laser tripwires. I know, I know, improved invisibility affects technological devices by bending light, but hear me out. First, you hook both the transmitter and receiver up to a computer; second, you have the transmitter send the laser in a coded random-sequence pulse; and third, you have the computer that both the receiver and transmitter are hooked up to run a constant measure of the time differential from the transmitter and receiver on that code. If the time differential ever changes, it means the light is taking longer to get from transmitter to receiver; and bending the light increases the distance it has to go, meaning that a sensitive computer will detect it. Sure, prone to errors (the difference will be small!) but it does theoretically work... And the setting is, after all, sci-fi.
-Long narrow corridors with few doors, low head clearance, and guards walking in pairs. Make a corridor that's patrolled regularly by pairs of gaurds, with the ceiling low enough he can't hover above them, and have them walk side by side so he'll hit them if he's in the hallway. Simple, low-tech, and effective.
-Mechanical locking gates. Low-tech? Yes. Hackable? Not even a little.
-Detect Life. 'Nuff said.
-Chem-sniffers. Does the mage carry a firearm? A grenade? A fetish made from unusual plants? They're all subject to detection that isn't affected by bending light waves.
-MAD detectors. See above.
-Pheromone detectors. See above.
-Pressure plates in odd places. Have the ceilings be pressure-sensitive in some random paranoid guy's office, and then when he hides against the ceiling to avoid the two guards walking underneath, he sets off an alarm anway...
-Smoke grenades. He may be invisible, but he'll leave a void in something pervasive like smoke and dust which IS visible.
| QUOTE |
| Also, how prevalent should astral barriers and other magical security measures be in Shadowrun? Right now I kinda have it so labs doing secret research usually have some kind of strong magical security, but your standard office building has little to none. |
It should be exactly as prevalent as you want or need it to be. It's your game; it runs by your rules. Personally, I think you have the right idea, though; small and/or unimportant offices will have pretty much none, while important installations will be swarming with magical barriers and detectors, guardian spirits, and astrally-active security.
That's an odd step backwards then, because DNA tech today is accurate and used in court routinely.
Likewise, a sniffer today can accurate determine all of the chemicals in the air around it.
Surely in 70 years these two already existing technologies can be combined.
Dust might fall, but that is why you use air conditioning fans to get air to move. And you can also just put the filters on the floor. Run them for about five minutes after people leave the office, and the bulk of particles will be cleared out.
DNA cells might mutate, but when you are sucking them up by the hundreds of thousands and running samples, what you get is a pattern that is foreign, and that tells you to send in the dogs and security.
Mutation of my DNA will only wander so far. You don't need an exact match to 'smell a rat' in the building. If from a sample of 100000 cells that I suck up, 80000 register over a 40% probability of being from people not known to have been in those parts of the building on that day, I send in cyber dogs and a security guard / drone to see if something is out of place. I match that with a quick sonar, radar, electromagnetic, and thermal scan of the area, and if the probability of foreign DNA is above 75%, maybe I keep the samples for later analysis.
Oh, and I was wrong about my fishtank pump. It actually does 40 gallons per minute, and that using a fan that has only a 1cm diameter. Air conditioning in a modern office can likely recycle the entire air of a typical floor in the span of an hour or two. So, speed it up after hours, add filters, and so on... and you can collect an amazing amount of data.
Likewise, a sniffer today can accurate determine all of the chemicals in the air around it.
Surely in 70 years these two already existing technologies can be combined.
Dust might fall, but that is why you use air conditioning fans to get air to move. And you can also just put the filters on the floor. Run them for about five minutes after people leave the office, and the bulk of particles will be cleared out.
DNA cells might mutate, but when you are sucking them up by the hundreds of thousands and running samples, what you get is a pattern that is foreign, and that tells you to send in the dogs and security.
Mutation of my DNA will only wander so far. You don't need an exact match to 'smell a rat' in the building. If from a sample of 100000 cells that I suck up, 80000 register over a 40% probability of being from people not known to have been in those parts of the building on that day, I send in cyber dogs and a security guard / drone to see if something is out of place. I match that with a quick sonar, radar, electromagnetic, and thermal scan of the area, and if the probability of foreign DNA is above 75%, maybe I keep the samples for later analysis.
Oh, and I was wrong about my fishtank pump. It actually does 40 gallons per minute, and that using a fan that has only a 1cm diameter. Air conditioning in a modern office can likely recycle the entire air of a typical floor in the span of an hour or two. So, speed it up after hours, add filters, and so on... and you can collect an amazing amount of data.
It isn't that accurate, CSI really over states the case on it's accuracy. Mostly it can show that a person could have left that sample, it is not accurate enough to go yep thats bill davis I'm sure.
DNA is considerably more complicated by many chemicals, a sniffer may be able to spot nucleic acids, but even in in 64 years time I doubt it will be able to analyse the exact structure, plus dna is huge and analysis takes time.
It would almost certaionly be easier to have your scans running and when they trip off send in the dogs. Then collect DNA samples to work out who it was.
Then there is the simple way to beat your system, full body suits. Even if the technology is available it is beatable with a simple peice of clothing not worth the price.
The best security in a magical world is a good range of scanners, and astral patrol spirits, remember invisibility doesn't cover you astrally, nothing does not even masking (which just disguises you).
DNA is considerably more complicated by many chemicals, a sniffer may be able to spot nucleic acids, but even in in 64 years time I doubt it will be able to analyse the exact structure, plus dna is huge and analysis takes time.
It would almost certaionly be easier to have your scans running and when they trip off send in the dogs. Then collect DNA samples to work out who it was.
Then there is the simple way to beat your system, full body suits. Even if the technology is available it is beatable with a simple peice of clothing not worth the price.
The best security in a magical world is a good range of scanners, and astral patrol spirits, remember invisibility doesn't cover you astrally, nothing does not even masking (which just disguises you).
Adding ultrasound vision to a non cyber visual augmentation system costs only 1000nuyen retail (les to a corp. that is buying boxes of 100). This is not cheep so not every guard will have it, only the ones that get called out when the presser plates, ultrasound motion detectors and door access panels notice something when the cameras say nothing is there.
I do like the MAD idea. Given the structure of a human body at short range it should show up on a MAD. If MADs are built into entry and exit points right up to the sealing then anybody floating threw invisible should be detected, any time the MAD doesn’t mach the camera all doors lock and the sight mage looks threw his spy fiberoptics into the room. Same response if any of your astral aware plants start to glow
Laser tripwires, even pulsed wouldn’t work. The extra time it takes to travel the extra 5cm will be so small no instrument would be able to detect it. (they tried to find the speed of light like that but its still to fast today, and that is with obscenely expensive apparatus)
DNA tests are no longer effective in 2070 because DNA masking was invented and it became easy to produce undetectable fake DNA samples. Strangely it is still used as a form of ID buy banks. the problem with dust DNA is that it is a mix. If you out flakes of skin from 3 people into a test apparatus together you will get gibberish.
Edward
I do like the MAD idea. Given the structure of a human body at short range it should show up on a MAD. If MADs are built into entry and exit points right up to the sealing then anybody floating threw invisible should be detected, any time the MAD doesn’t mach the camera all doors lock and the sight mage looks threw his spy fiberoptics into the room. Same response if any of your astral aware plants start to glow
Laser tripwires, even pulsed wouldn’t work. The extra time it takes to travel the extra 5cm will be so small no instrument would be able to detect it. (they tried to find the speed of light like that but its still to fast today, and that is with obscenely expensive apparatus)
DNA tests are no longer effective in 2070 because DNA masking was invented and it became easy to produce undetectable fake DNA samples. Strangely it is still used as a form of ID buy banks. the problem with dust DNA is that it is a mix. If you out flakes of skin from 3 people into a test apparatus together you will get gibberish.
Edward
Cyberware Scanners will catch an invisible mage every time.
Low cost counters to magic:
- Watcher[s]
- Guard Dogs/Bloodhounds (primary sense - smell)
- Biomonitors on any Guards/Critters, notifying Security if they go unconscious (also ensures they don't sleep on the job!)
- Area effect weapons (smoke, chemicals, etc.) that hit they mage even if he can't be seen.
- Background count (facilities in Barrens, etc.)
Another option for detection of mages is a trideo version of an electron sensitive camera, then have a vandegraff generator at various points along the ceiling. Any mage floating along will have imperceptable arcings from the various points, but decteable to the cameras.
And, yes they have cameras that can show the path of electrons jumping in a static arc. Match those up with standard sensors and you have an invisibility detector. Then when the panic button is pressed, the amperage is pumped up and you get a lightnig hall...
And, yes they have cameras that can show the path of electrons jumping in a static arc. Match those up with standard sensors and you have an invisibility detector. Then when the panic button is pressed, the amperage is pumped up and you get a lightnig hall...
Also, try putting together shadowruns where you don't have all your eggs in one basket. It's easy to fall into the trap of "Break into the skyscraper, steal something, shoot the guards, get paid."
Have Mr. Johnson screw over the runners - they go in and then the SWAT unit strikes. Of course, since they *know* there's a mage about they'll be ready. Maybe have someone screw over Mr. Johnson and have the runners followed from the start. Have that gang challenge your mage to a knife fight, with his fixer's life as the price for cheating. Set up computer security so tough it can't be broken into from the outside (let the hacker get nailed by this), but maybe a contact can point them to a back door if the players bust his buddy out of jail. Of course, the buddy has a price on his head and so the Yakuza will just be waiting for him to come out of lockdown, etc. The more complications in the run, the less chance there is for a single spell to ruin it. Finally, since your players are such expert mages, hire them to go up against expert magical defenses. Only makes sense, doesn't it?
Have Mr. Johnson screw over the runners - they go in and then the SWAT unit strikes. Of course, since they *know* there's a mage about they'll be ready. Maybe have someone screw over Mr. Johnson and have the runners followed from the start. Have that gang challenge your mage to a knife fight, with his fixer's life as the price for cheating. Set up computer security so tough it can't be broken into from the outside (let the hacker get nailed by this), but maybe a contact can point them to a back door if the players bust his buddy out of jail. Of course, the buddy has a price on his head and so the Yakuza will just be waiting for him to come out of lockdown, etc. The more complications in the run, the less chance there is for a single spell to ruin it. Finally, since your players are such expert mages, hire them to go up against expert magical defenses. Only makes sense, doesn't it?
| QUOTE (Edward) |
| Laser tripwires, even pulsed wouldn’t work. The extra time it takes to travel the extra 5cm will be so small no instrument would be able to detect it. (they tried to find the speed of light like that but its still to fast today, and that is with obscenely expensive apparatus) |
Of course it would work; bending the path of something at a constant speed increases its travel time, and with a sensitive enough piece of equipment, that travel time is measurable. If you don't want it in your game, don't use it, but the theory is sound.
The best security is the cheap security.
Motion detectors hidden in walls, plants or paintings to monitor corridors, rooms etc. Let them report to the security company in charge. Add a camera that records the time frame where the alarm sounded so that they can get a visual picture.
Sensor tags with motion detectors (not a visual medium and will thus not be fooled)
Motion sensors on doors (will react to being opened or approached)
Hidden microphones (hey, they might be recording their meetings, employees etc)
Radio Signal Scanner (for detecting commlinks within a room)
Vibration detectors (a layer of thin floorboards that easily vibrates when someone walks on them and a sensor that can read the amounts of footsteps, weight etc…)
Motion detectors hidden in walls, plants or paintings to monitor corridors, rooms etc. Let them report to the security company in charge. Add a camera that records the time frame where the alarm sounded so that they can get a visual picture.
Sensor tags with motion detectors (not a visual medium and will thus not be fooled)
Motion sensors on doors (will react to being opened or approached)
Hidden microphones (hey, they might be recording their meetings, employees etc)
Radio Signal Scanner (for detecting commlinks within a room)
Vibration detectors (a layer of thin floorboards that easily vibrates when someone walks on them and a sensor that can read the amounts of footsteps, weight etc…)
| QUOTE (neko128) | ||
Of course it would work; bending the path of something at a constant speed increases its travel time, and with a sensitive enough piece of equipment, that travel time is measurable. If you don't want it in your game, don't use it, but the theory is sound. |
It doesn't work, because invisibility fools optic sensors. It does increase the threshold, though, and I wouldn't call it broken to have the threshold increased to five.
| QUOTE (Azathfeld) |
| It doesn't work, because invisibility fools optic sensors. It does increase the threshold, though, and I wouldn't call it broken to have the threshold increased to five. |
It's DESIGNED to fool optical sensors; it isn't foolproof. The nature of device ratings, thresholds, and pure dumb luck make no spell perfect.
If it makes you feel better, it could be simply handled as a rating on the tripwire. A low-rating tripwire is extremely bare-bones, but a system like I'm envisioning could be a high-level tripwire.
...Monofiliament tripwire... 
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| ...Monofiliament tripwire... |
Last time I went on a monofilament kick, people got mad at me for the lack of cost-feasability in my ideas.
| QUOTE (neko128) | ||
Last time I went on a monofilament kick, people got mad at me for the lack of cost-feasability in my ideas. |
What? For a corporation they get bulk discount and saves on other costs in security...might need to clean up all that blood though...
| QUOTE (mintcar @ Mar 25 2006, 03:02 PM) |
| Shadowrun is a gameworld were vast resources are available to even the most modestly designed character. In the form of magic, but also in the sheer fact that information is so readily accessable on the matrix. The thing to remember is that all those things are available to other people also. As a GM, I'm pretty fast to take advantage of magical spells and spirits—as well as high tech forensics and hacking—to make the lives difficult for my players. As a result, the questions you ask yourself has been asked the other way around in my group. What you need to solve this is to have an understanding between players and GM of what is possible, what is common practice and how it is usually countered. There is a status quo, or else there would be no crime- or no law, respectively. Knowing that there IS supposed to be a status quo, all you have to do is decide how it is manifesting itself. For example; in previous editions of the game, astral projection was "discovered" by players to be extremely exploitable. In SR4, it is often stated that astral snooping is recogniced by companies and governments as a serious problem, and that vast resources are being spent to protect from it. |
Requoted for emphasis, with a "Preach on, Mintcar" added for effect.
Seriously. Wonderful post, and spot-on gaming philosophy.
| QUOTE (rackrmnn) |
| As far as countering improved invisibility in general, I guess I could increase the number of pheromone and ultrasound detectors. As is, I was considering them on the rarer side. |
Ultrasound sensors are pretty common now. I'd guess about 20% of the motion sensors sold on the market are ultrasonic. IR doesn't work well in hot environments where people tend not to show up nor does it function in cases where you have relatively cool devices/objects moving around (like a crate on the front of a forklift). I know there are at least a couple of ultrasonic motion sensors that will also ramp up their volumes to drive off animals, which could act like an "ultrasonic jammer."
I think there should be 2 grades of ultrasound units: simple motion sensors and "vision" sensors that map out surfaces. The simple ones are probably only 100-200Y since all they do is listen for changes to their ultrasonic echo (Note that this could detect some of the Physical silence spells). The 1,000Y vision unit actually builds a topography and does artificial coloring (like thermograph) to help the human brain interpret the data.
Pheremone sensors will have limited functionality, IMO. They will probably not be instantaneous unless you have particularly well crafted ventilation to provide an airflow. They also look for particular chemicals that aren't released in huge quantities (barring significant physical exertion). It'd be easier to make a simple CO2/H20 sensor that watches for respiration; IIRC the average human exhales 1-2L of air with each breath with a significantly higher CO2 and humidity.
| QUOTE (The Jopp) | ||||
What? For a corporation they get bulk discount and saves on other costs in security...might need to clean up all that blood though... |
See, I agree. I think that my monofilament-maze-grenades were a great idea, but people seemed to think they'd cost too much for their effect to be truly useful.
| QUOTE ("SR4 p. 184 under Astral Detection) |
| Physical beings may sense when an astral form passes through their aura. Make a Perception + Intuition (4) Test; apply a +2 dice pool bonus if the character is Awakened. If the test is successful, the character feels a chill or tingling from the passing of the astral form. Security personnel are often trained to recognize this feeling as a sign of an astral intruder. |
Don't forget that as you beef up the magical security of your system that mages will probably fall back on the old "I'm on the astral plane, your physical sensors no longer work!" But, as the quote above shows, physical beings get a test to notice an astral one passing through them. I've called for Infiltration tests (remember to use Astral Attributes) while mages whizz around secured locations to see if they go through anyone. Usually a threshold of 2 or 3 for the test, depending on how many people they have to dodge around.
Thanks for all the ideas, you guys rock. Set me straight on a few things.
| QUOTE (arcady @ Mar 26 2006, 01:08 AM) |
| That's an odd step backwards then, because DNA tech today is accurate and used in court routinely. Likewise, a sniffer today can accurate determine all of the chemicals in the air around it. |
A chemical sniffer today can tell you the chemiclal composition of DNA. It can't tell you the order of those chemicals and that is what matters.
There is a big difference between a handheld DNA scanner and a full DNA lab. That difference is what makes the handheld scanner so potentially inaccurate.
Even so, the accuracy of DNA labs is vastly overstated. The probability of getting a false match with correct handling procedures and sampling methods is about the same as winning the lottery. Someone wins the lottery every few weeks.
Likewise, incorrect handling procedures can result in contamination and, most importantly, inadaquate sampling can drastic reduce the odds of a false match.
No DNA lab samples the entire genome in its tests. Doing so would require a supercomputer. Instead they look at a rather small portion of te DNA. It is fairly easy to choose incorrectly.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Even so, the accuracy of DNA labs is vastly overstated. The probability of getting a false match with correct handling procedures and sampling methods is about the same as winning the lottery. Someone wins the lottery every few weeks. |
People buy millions upon millions upon millions of lottery tickets every week.
How many forensic DNA samples are tested in a month, worldwide? I doubt a year's worth is the same as one week's lottery sales in one US state.
Just think about this: Even if there is a DNA technology that can completely secure a room or building would the public ever see it? It's like the EMP grenade. If you ever see one you die because the corps can't afford that technology getting out. It would cut into the profit margin too much. Corporate security only works if corporate security doesn't always work.
It's all about the
It's all about the
...
What are you smoking? Something like this would be a very good seller. Why would it hurt the bottom line?
What are you smoking? Something like this would be a very good seller. Why would it hurt the bottom line?
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| Cyberware Scanners will catch an invisible mage every time. |
Why would a Cyberware scanner detect a mage with no ware? It's only designed to detect cyber-improvements. A full-mojo mage with a pure body won't even get a blip with your idea.
Because it works by emitting millimeter band radar. Not only will it see people automatically, it'll see through their clothes. I wouldn't be surprised if corps made small amounts of money by selling the nekkid security footage...
| QUOTE (nick012000) |
| Because it works by emitting millimeter band radar. Not only will it see people automatically, it'll see through their clothes. I wouldn't be surprised if corps made small amounts of money by selling the nekkid security footage... |
Hmm, while I agree that it is logical that it ”sees” people through the radar the question is if the actual sensor system is designed to REACT to the individual it ”sees”. Most likely it is only programmed to recognize specific cybernetic components.
For the simple solution, use the same rules for the cyberware scanner but let it recognize people and movement instead of cyberware. Then we have something that is a pure invisibility detector and not a cyberware scanner but it works for the same price.
*shrug* I have a hard time believing a cyberwear scanner doesn't do something along the lines of "Metahuman detected, now scanning..." when it gets a target. The easiest way to automate it would be to have the sensor doing a very simple "is something in front of me" check on a constant basis, and then automatically sweep anything that walks through it. It might not set off an ALARM or something (it does that when people have evil, evil cyber, not when they stop to get scanned), but the guy half-asleep next to the scanner (or the security hacker munching on his lunch a few rooms away) should get some kind of indication when your invisible mage walks through it. If he walks (or flies) through it and doesn't wait for the scan, that might set off an alarm, too...
| QUOTE (nick012000 @ Mar 29 2006, 11:58 AM) |
| What are you smoking? Something like this would be a very good seller. Why would it hurt the bottom line? |
from a economical standpoint its better to eternaly treat then to cure ones...
this applys for everything...
| QUOTE (nick012000) |
| What are you smoking? Something like this would be a very good seller. Why would it hurt the bottom line? |
If you're a security company, would you want to sell some corporation a 100k
security system, or a whole bunch of different 50k systems that have to be used in an overlapping network in order to provide real security? It's all about profit margins.
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