Full Version: About Nigel D. Findley's setting books.
You know how everyone's afraid of Nigel's unplayable settings and the fact that the police there can beat you down instantly? Maybe the game was designed with higher power levels in mind than the "street levelism" purists want the game to go.
I'm not afraid of his settings.
But I heard that they're unplayable, that the police are always all-powerful and stuff. I can sort of see what they mean with the Tir Tairngire book; the matrix hosts are more powerful than Lofwyr's.
I know what you mean, but I don't think they're unplayable. I think (in the Tir's case) that it shows how paranoid they are, and also how secretive/up to something they can be.
Besides, if you think they're too tough, you can always adjust them to fit your campaign. In my SR3 campaign, I had to adjust the bug spirits upward to keep them the "big bad boogeyman" that I felt they should be.
Besides, if you think they're too tough, you can always adjust them to fit your campaign. In my SR3 campaign, I had to adjust the bug spirits upward to keep them the "big bad boogeyman" that I felt they should be.
It wasn't a matter of power level. It was a matter of ruining Tir Tairngire and Japan as places runners would want to go to. Japan, especially - they could have made it so cool, as the place to go to get hot cyber months before it hit the UCAS, or where you could combine modern techno-fetishism with ninjas and stuff. Tir Tairngire could have been good too, a decadent psuedo-Victorian place with a simmering non-elven underclass, courtly intrigue, and mysterious elven magic. But what do you get? Two boring xenophobic fascist police states.
So yeah, you had to have high-powered characters with really good fake IDs to even think of going there, but that's because their piss-poor design made them good for nothing else.
Mind you, I do think you're right about the original game being intended as higher than "street level". Professional criminals performing espionage, sabotage, and data theft against powerful megacorporations is a far cry from a bunch of street punks. And even in the lower-powered SR4, you need to go lower than the standard 400 build points if the street punks is what you want.
So yeah, you had to have high-powered characters with really good fake IDs to even think of going there, but that's because their piss-poor design made them good for nothing else.
Mind you, I do think you're right about the original game being intended as higher than "street level". Professional criminals performing espionage, sabotage, and data theft against powerful megacorporations is a far cry from a bunch of street punks. And even in the lower-powered SR4, you need to go lower than the standard 400 build points if the street punks is what you want.
They aren't unplayable. But you also have to consider that TT has an incredibly high percentage of magically-active citizens, and that in itself makes the place almost completely different to function in when it treats magic as a commodity like Americans treat oil.
| QUOTE (emo samurai @ Apr 1 2006, 06:49 PM) |
| You know how everyone's afraid of Nigel's unplayable settings and the fact that the police there can beat you down instantly? Maybe the game was designed with higher power levels in mind than the "street levelism" purists want the game to go. |
If you are afraid, you are doing something wrong. You just have to play smarter.
Relying on shooting your way through cops and just burning past all opppositions is a dangerous habit, you cannot relying on out shooting the red samurai, or FRT's.
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| Maybe the game was designed with higher power levels in mind than the "street levelism" purists want the game to go. |
No, ya think?
~J
Why all the "street level" crap? And in Japan, you can still get all the stuff earlier than everywhere else; you just have to go to Chiba or something.
Well, "Street Level" makes a lot more sense if you look at what level the street was designed to be at. Otaku, the Spikes, the Ancients, the Red Hot Nukes, the Stepping Wulfs… if you go down far enough, sure, you'll find punks with no augmentation, no magic, and no one tougher than a middleweight Ork, but the gangs I mentioned above are still street-level—and they are, in my opinion, the kind of street-level the game was meant to support.
~J
~J
I don't think the settings in those books are unplayable, but it isn't clearly covered in those books how the shadowrunner community operates in the setting. They are written in a sort of travel guide/almanac style with interjections from shadowrunners in the shadowtalk, but few sections devoted to shadowrunning.
If shadowrunners operate in these settings, how do they do it? If they don't, why is a full book being devoted to this location? These are excellent setting books, but I can see where gamemasters and players can sort of feel limited by them, because the connective tissue between these settings and the shadowrunners they play isn't quite there.
If shadowrunners operate in these settings, how do they do it? If they don't, why is a full book being devoted to this location? These are excellent setting books, but I can see where gamemasters and players can sort of feel limited by them, because the connective tissue between these settings and the shadowrunners they play isn't quite there.
I'm sure that the GM could homebrew a Gibson-esque sprawl like Chiba City, but something like that just isn't mentioned in Shadows of Asia. Tir Tairngire talks a lot about gangs operating with the trappings of corporations, but that's just lame, and has nothing to do with shadowrunning. I guess you'd need Tir Na Nog for the pseudo-Victorian scheming.
There's this thing that gamers used to use before, say, when D&D 3.0 came out (
), called "imagination". I've found that it proves invaluable when playing SR, and indeed when doing several other things. In fact, through its use, I've found that I don't even need a step by step instruction manual for running the Tir, or any other place.
Did you need the book to tell you not to randomly gun down pedestrians in a rating A area? Or that it might be hard to break into a secure Aztechnology lab?
I know this sounds terribly snarky, but I can't think of a more straighforward way of saying "stop expecting to have everything spoon-fed to you; come up with something on your own."
), called "imagination". I've found that it proves invaluable when playing SR, and indeed when doing several other things. In fact, through its use, I've found that I don't even need a step by step instruction manual for running the Tir, or any other place. Did you need the book to tell you not to randomly gun down pedestrians in a rating A area? Or that it might be hard to break into a secure Aztechnology lab?
I know this sounds terribly snarky, but I can't think of a more straighforward way of saying "stop expecting to have everything spoon-fed to you; come up with something on your own."
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| There's this thing that gamers used to use before, say, when D&D 3.0 came out (), called "imagination". I've found that it proves invaluable when playing SR, and indeed when doing several other things. In fact, through its use, I've found that I don't even need a step by step instruction manual for running the Tir, or any other place. Did you need the book to tell you not to randomly gun down pedestrians in a rating A area? Or that it might be hard to break into a secure Aztechnology lab? I know this sounds terribly snarky, but I can't think of a more straighforward way of saying "stop expecting to have everything spoon-fed to you; come up with something on your own." |
I agree wholeheartedly, but one point in defense: when you're first getting started as a GM, sometimes spoon-feeding is the best thing. Sitting down and reading some of the sourcebooks as a first time GM can be a bit daunting. Eventually, tho, I think most people get to the point that the sourcebooks aren't there for dropping straight into the campaign verbatim, but more for background ideas and evil mindsgames for GMs 101.
True enough. That being the case though, one could easily make a case for sticking with Seattle until the GM and players have developed a sense for their own style and abilities.
It's the "problem" with a lot of systems that have been around for a while before you pick them up. The desire is to jump all over the place reading all of the sourcebooks, in an effort to know "everything" and be able to do it all. Rifts, SR, even D&D is like this. If there was any advice I'd give gamers just getting into one of these well-developed settings, it'd be "don't worry, start small, it'll be there when you're ready for it."
It's the "problem" with a lot of systems that have been around for a while before you pick them up. The desire is to jump all over the place reading all of the sourcebooks, in an effort to know "everything" and be able to do it all. Rifts, SR, even D&D is like this. If there was any advice I'd give gamers just getting into one of these well-developed settings, it'd be "don't worry, start small, it'll be there when you're ready for it."
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| I know this sounds terribly snarky, but I can't think of a more straighforward way of saying "stop expecting to have everything spoon-fed to you; come up with something on your own." |
While I certainly suspect that your definition of "spoon-fed" is something I would find undesirable, "come up with something on [my] own" is something I can do without paying money for a book.
~J
True. I suppose you could dream up places for runners to go, and indeed I'm sure you have.
What I'm saying is that a description of the place is plenty (and actually more than you get for some areas). You read about the place, you come up with a bit extra to make it playable, you do a run/campaign there.
Of course, you have the option of not buying the books, too. Nobody says you have to buy the book and run the Tir the way it was written. Maybe your Tir is different.
What I'm saying is that a description of the place is plenty (and actually more than you get for some areas). You read about the place, you come up with a bit extra to make it playable, you do a run/campaign there.
Of course, you have the option of not buying the books, too. Nobody says you have to buy the book and run the Tir the way it was written. Maybe your Tir is different.
If I plunk down my hard-earned money for a book, I expect to be "spoon-fed". If I buy a location book to use for a shadowrunning game, I don't find it unreasonable to expect information on using that location for, gee, I dunno, shadowrunning? Books aren't straightjackets on GM creativity, and certainly can't replace it, but their function is to save the GMs the time and effort of coming up with everything themselves, and to explain the nuts and bolts of the game in greater detail.
I think we're just having different thoughts about what a location book should be expected to provide.
I expect a general overview of the area, the culture, major players (corps, individuals, interest groups, dragons...) and major events. Beyond that is up to me. They're a setting. The "How To Shadowrun" part is effectively the same no matter where you are: be careful, don't get caught, and get the job done.
The "nuts and bolts" of the game is what books like SSG, M&M, CC, R3, etc provide.
I expect a general overview of the area, the culture, major players (corps, individuals, interest groups, dragons...) and major events. Beyond that is up to me. They're a setting. The "How To Shadowrun" part is effectively the same no matter where you are: be careful, don't get caught, and get the job done.
The "nuts and bolts" of the game is what books like SSG, M&M, CC, R3, etc provide.
I never really liked the SR setting books. I just couldn't get into them. I haven't really loved a single detail since McHugh's.
That sounds pretty harsh and I don't want to say that the books sucked, because objectively they probably didn't. It's just that they never really sparked with me.
During my years of GMing, I just relied on ninjas and other cliches.
Now, if FanPro went ahead and published a new setting detail book called "Target: Eighties", which reinstated rules for riffing on guitars, had a few tables with ninja gear, had big hair, had flying cars, and had rules for brown overcoats with gigantic turned collars, then I seriously would be interested.
But unfortunately all of the latest setting books really seem to be veering away from that sort of thing.
That sounds pretty harsh and I don't want to say that the books sucked, because objectively they probably didn't. It's just that they never really sparked with me.
During my years of GMing, I just relied on ninjas and other cliches.
Now, if FanPro went ahead and published a new setting detail book called "Target: Eighties", which reinstated rules for riffing on guitars, had a few tables with ninja gear, had big hair, had flying cars, and had rules for brown overcoats with gigantic turned collars, then I seriously would be interested.
But unfortunately all of the latest setting books really seem to be veering away from that sort of thing.
I really see it has a matter of preference. In response to Wounded Ronin's post, I really don't care about dwelling in the 80's. I enjoy more about the cloak and dagger between large institutions, nations, corporations, dragons, etc... I'm glad teh big hair is gone, the spandex and the large collars are not in play anymore. Don't get me going on ninjas...
Anyway, it's a matter of style, I don't mind the settings books as I use them to understand who's the major players are and how to incorporate it in my own campaign to give it more life outside of the runners. Make the players feel that it's an entire world out there and I want them to take initiative and do things outside of what I package for them in a run.
Anyway, it's a matter of style, I don't mind the settings books as I use them to understand who's the major players are and how to incorporate it in my own campaign to give it more life outside of the runners. Make the players feel that it's an entire world out there and I want them to take initiative and do things outside of what I package for them in a run.
NINJAAAAAAS KIIIIIIIIIIIIIICK AAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Speaking of ninjas and Nigel. D. Findley, I was thinking of having 2XS introduced into the campaign, except instead of having the super-BTL's be about Viking emperors, I was going to have a gang sell them to rivals at half-price to clear them out. 3/4 of them would make them think they were Vicious from Cowboy Bebop, and the other 1/4 of them would think they were Spike. That way, when the Viciouses fight the Spikes, the odds are approximately even. A n00b with a gun is about 3 times as dangerous as a n00b with a sword is the reasoning. The hope is for the gangsters to kill each other off. Or, maybe I'd have them load the 2XS up with berserker ninja personasofts... ideas?
Speaking of ninjas and Nigel. D. Findley, I was thinking of having 2XS introduced into the campaign, except instead of having the super-BTL's be about Viking emperors, I was going to have a gang sell them to rivals at half-price to clear them out. 3/4 of them would make them think they were Vicious from Cowboy Bebop, and the other 1/4 of them would think they were Spike. That way, when the Viciouses fight the Spikes, the odds are approximately even. A n00b with a gun is about 3 times as dangerous as a n00b with a sword is the reasoning. The hope is for the gangsters to kill each other off. Or, maybe I'd have them load the 2XS up with berserker ninja personasofts... ideas?
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| NINJAAAAAAS KIIIIIIIIIIIIIICK AAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Speaking of ninjas and Nigel. D. Findley, I was thinking of having 2XS introduced into the campaign, except instead of having the super-BTL's be about Viking emperors, I was going to have a gang sell them to rivals at half-price to clear them out. 3/4 of them would make them think they were Vicious from Cowboy Bebop, and the other 1/4 of them would think they were Spike. That way, when the Viciouses fight the Spikes, the odds are approximately even. A n00b with a gun is about 3 times as dangerous as a n00b with a sword is the reasoning. The hope is for the gangsters to kill each other off. Or, maybe I'd have them load the 2XS up with berserker ninja personasofts... ideas? |
That would be pretty good. I'd love to play in a campaign like that. Why don't you have some Cowboy Beebop theme music playing in an endless loop in the background during the whole game? The endless looping would reinforce the overall sensation of madness.
If you go with ninja it would be funnier if the gang members were trying to act like Japanese cinematic ninja heros. Like, all these giant trolls with shotguns would be trying to hide upside down in the bushes while wearing tee shirt ninja masks. The party would see them effortlessly and wonder why the trolls are holding the shotguns like swords.
Or, imagine the following scene.
GM: The troll, the one who has been using Ashida Kim's technique of hiding in plane sight by standing against the wall ten feet from you for the past half hour and acting like you don't know that he's tere, suddenly roars to life. He lunges at you while screaming "SHAOLIN FINGER STRIKE", and jabs a sausage-sized finger at you. Hmm, he got lots of successes, has reach, and surprise. I think you can't avoid it.
Player: Oh no, it's surely some devastating martial arts move.
GM: He poked you, and it's mildly annoying. He screams "SHAOLIN FINGER STRIKE" again...roll init!
You have the player wondering if he was hit by a delayed death touch or what and it takes him till the end of the campaign to realize that SHAOLIN FINGER STRIKE was just some bullshit BTL fantasy from an old 1970s movie.
I love it, emo. Cowboy Bebop makes everything better.
One of the NPC fixers in the last game I ran had Jet Black's voice.
One of the NPC fixers in the last game I ran had Jet Black's voice.
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