Sorry to do it this way, but I need help fast.
I was just invited to a Shadowrun game that starts in two hours, but I haven't played since 3E. I have the book, but we haven't been playing, so I haven't read much more that the flavor text. I'll be playing an archtype to keep it simple, so I don't need creation rules, nor will I be a hacker or rigger to keep things simple.
Can anyone give me a quick run down on what changes I need to know about? particularly magic and combat? I will be much endebted.
Full Version: 3E vs 4E
Just about everything has changed. Sorry, there's no short way to cover even the basics. I suggest you treat this as if you're learning a totally new game, which in most respects it is. Don't assume you know anything about SR4 based on the way previous editions worked, and it'll go much smoother for you.
There's no one there to hear you scream. :/
It's simple enough, you'll surely get the hang for it quickly. 
The most important thing to know is, that there are no changing target numbers anymore, they are all fixed at 5 now. Modifiers change the number of dice you roll (and you usually roll one attribute and one skill plus modifiers). You calculate the number of dice to roll and count all rolls of 5+, which are the successes or rather hits, as they are called now. The more the better, as usual, but often 1 hit will not be enough to actually succeed in a task.
Bye
Thanee
The most important thing to know is, that there are no changing target numbers anymore, they are all fixed at 5 now. Modifiers change the number of dice you roll (and you usually roll one attribute and one skill plus modifiers). You calculate the number of dice to roll and count all rolls of 5+, which are the successes or rather hits, as they are called now. The more the better, as usual, but often 1 hit will not be enough to actually succeed in a task.
Bye
Thanee
Here is a link to Bull's introduction to SR4, which covers the main changes.
Now, to me, one of the shocks of the new system is that Attributes tend to start out much lower. The maximum, for Attriubutes and skills, is also set lower, though. So you start out weaker, but can actually begin play as the "best of the best" at something. And remember that the NPCs have also been correspodingly toned down.
Now, to me, one of the shocks of the new system is that Attributes tend to start out much lower. The maximum, for Attriubutes and skills, is also set lower, though. So you start out weaker, but can actually begin play as the "best of the best" at something. And remember that the NPCs have also been correspodingly toned down.
But not as much as they should have been; even putting the maximum into attributes you end up with about the same stats as the average security guard. The moral here is don't even try to be a generalist; without specializing in some area you're pretty hosed. Even trying to "dual-class" like you could in previous editions is very difficult, for instance if you try to combine mage with decker or sam with face.
On the flip side the way the chargen rules work specializing in something *can* be really powerful. Some argue too powerful compared to the generalists, but that's a matter of no small debate.
Overall the system is much quicker and self-consistent than previous editions. The vehicle rules are much more streamlined and easier to use, which is nice. The decking rules have changed a LOT, and are in many ways the better for it. The wireless Matrix 2.0 switch has made decking much more integrated with everyone else, which is very good.
Cain's cynical comment about it being a "whole new game" does have some truth in it, however. Much of the "gamer's intuition" you've learned over the years will have to be re-learned. For example, Object Resistance has done almost a complete 180: it's almost easier to destroy a camera than it is to ghost past it with Invisability now, as the latter requires you to sustain a spell. The nature of the changes to modifiers, the dice system, and the rules in general make most of what you knew to work in SR3 not work anymore, and stuff you'd never get away with under SR4 is child's play now.
On the flip side the way the chargen rules work specializing in something *can* be really powerful. Some argue too powerful compared to the generalists, but that's a matter of no small debate.
Overall the system is much quicker and self-consistent than previous editions. The vehicle rules are much more streamlined and easier to use, which is nice. The decking rules have changed a LOT, and are in many ways the better for it. The wireless Matrix 2.0 switch has made decking much more integrated with everyone else, which is very good.
Cain's cynical comment about it being a "whole new game" does have some truth in it, however. Much of the "gamer's intuition" you've learned over the years will have to be re-learned. For example, Object Resistance has done almost a complete 180: it's almost easier to destroy a camera than it is to ghost past it with Invisability now, as the latter requires you to sustain a spell. The nature of the changes to modifiers, the dice system, and the rules in general make most of what you knew to work in SR3 not work anymore, and stuff you'd never get away with under SR4 is child's play now.
i would argue that you can dual class. you just have to be very choosy about what classes you dual class as.
for example, you could be a hacker/rigger and do a reasonable job of it.
you could be a sammy/face and come away pretty good.
you could most definitely not be a solid mage/hacker, otoh, let alone a mage/technomancer (assuming they even let you take both of those qualities, both of those things are bottomless karma pits).
for example, you could be a hacker/rigger and do a reasonable job of it.
you could be a sammy/face and come away pretty good.
you could most definitely not be a solid mage/hacker, otoh, let alone a mage/technomancer (assuming they even let you take both of those qualities, both of those things are bottomless karma pits).
There's a person in my own group who's got some tech so he can deal with computers and maglocks and such, is an adept, can hold his own in combat and is the face, and he's great at all of it, so it's possible.
The most effective "dual-classing" is when you select specialties that can "share" Attributes (such as an elven shaman/face with a high Charisma, or a dwarven hermetic mage/techie with a high Logic). As in SR3, most "dual class" characters are just slightly non-standard builds - like a sammie who, instead of taking pistols/one close combat skill/one heavier weapon skill, takes pistols, first aid, and medicine to create a combat-oriented medic.
It's possible to have more than one specialty - but you should definitely try to be really good in at least one area. It is deceptively easy to overgeneralize to the point where you are nearly useless (and some of the archetypes in the book are a good example of this).
It's possible to have more than one specialty - but you should definitely try to be really good in at least one area. It is deceptively easy to overgeneralize to the point where you are nearly useless (and some of the archetypes in the book are a good example of this).
Thanks for answering all.
We ran the game, a very simple B&E, and had a lot of fun. All of us were new to 4E and only one other player had played ANY previous edition of SR, so it was a learning experience all around. We all played archtypes to get to game faster (we had one PDF and one book between all five of us).
The characters were a Combat mage, Street Samurai, Weapon Specialist, and Gunslinger Adept.
The game seems easier, and I didn't miss my pools as much as I thought I would. The characters all seemed somewhat poorly made, but that wasn't a huge issue. Edge seems to be extremely important, and I noticed I had a tougher time buying down drain.
Manabolt still trumps all, but at least I was a bit more carefule about using it (the drain issue), and it seems to be much harder to take down simple security guards quickly and quietly. Our sniper was doing 8 or nine points per shot regularly, but not enough to kill them without alerting the enemy to our presence. I was taken out in the second combat by a merc with an AK-97, so I can't comment a lot more on the magic system.
Anywho, all in all I liked it. It has a lower power level, but I'm glad about that. It also is a lot easier to introduce new players. Only the GM and I had SR experience prior to this game, yet we had no problems teaching the new guys.
I may very well run my next campaign as a 4E game.
We ran the game, a very simple B&E, and had a lot of fun. All of us were new to 4E and only one other player had played ANY previous edition of SR, so it was a learning experience all around. We all played archtypes to get to game faster (we had one PDF and one book between all five of us).
The characters were a Combat mage, Street Samurai, Weapon Specialist, and Gunslinger Adept.
The game seems easier, and I didn't miss my pools as much as I thought I would. The characters all seemed somewhat poorly made, but that wasn't a huge issue. Edge seems to be extremely important, and I noticed I had a tougher time buying down drain.
Manabolt still trumps all, but at least I was a bit more carefule about using it (the drain issue), and it seems to be much harder to take down simple security guards quickly and quietly. Our sniper was doing 8 or nine points per shot regularly, but not enough to kill them without alerting the enemy to our presence. I was taken out in the second combat by a merc with an AK-97, so I can't comment a lot more on the magic system.
Anywho, all in all I liked it. It has a lower power level, but I'm glad about that. It also is a lot easier to introduce new players. Only the GM and I had SR experience prior to this game, yet we had no problems teaching the new guys.
I may very well run my next campaign as a 4E game.
| QUOTE (Masterofthegame) |
| Anywho, all in all I liked it. It has a lower power level, but I'm glad about that. It also is a lot easier to introduce new players. Only the GM and I had SR experience prior to this game, yet we had no problems teaching the new guys. I may very well run my next campaign as a 4E game. |
Welcome to the dark side.
One quick question. Last night I ( a combat mage) decided to use a patch. It was a one-shot, and I didn't mind taking the chance of essense loss. However, when we looked for the essense loss rules we couldn't find them. Is it safe for mages to use patches now?
Yes, it is safe. For now 
.
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Yep the nice people who make patches of all sorts have managed to lick the mage ripping problems from their product.
Aint progress wonderful?
Aint progress wonderful?
Thanks.
| QUOTE (Masterofthegame @ Apr 2 2006, 11:33 AM) |
| One quick question. Last night I ( a combat mage) decided to use a patch. It was a one-shot, and I didn't mind taking the chance of essense loss. However, when we looked for the essense loss rules we couldn't find them. Is it safe for mages to use patches now? |
If the GM is of that sort of bent he could have you make a Stimulants Addiction roll everytime you used a patch, although the directions on page 247 suggest that it be more of a repeated exposure that would trigger it so I wouldn't call for the roll on the first patch. Myself, if a character was popping on a patch every 2 or 3 days I'd likely call for an Addiction Test every use past the first one or two. Even if it was only 1 a week but for a number of weeks in a row I might start calling for a check.
It is a Threshold of 2 so it is quite possible to fail it, depending on your Attributes. I'd likely class it as a physical addition, so you'd roll Will+Body. If you do get addicted though you still have to progress to the Burnout level and stay there for a bit before you start losing Essense.
(EDIT- IMO the addiction test should be made without the High Pain Tolerance benefits, but at the time of application. So just as the buzz as kicking in, but before your wound penalties are ignored. So you'll likely have some sort of wound penalties to your dice pool. Alternatively the GM could be somewhat kinder and make the addiction check when the Stimpatch runs out, so there will be that one box of Stun damage but if they are on top of things they'll have used First Aid and the Heal spell to remove most if not all of the wound penalities before they make the addiction test. Or they could be tough and pick the worst wound penalty that they had from start to finish, so if they take more damage after slapping the Stimpatch that could get really nasty.)
So to start with it is only the minor inconvience of being strung out periodicly and chewing up a few hundred nuyen a day. It is just if they let it go and let themselves spiral down that it becomes tougher and the risk of Magic loss through Essense loss comes up. Of course once addicted, even if they dig themselves back out and clean up, they are at risk falling back off the wagon every time they get a patch slapped on again.
EDIT
Yes, the sample characters in the BBB are definately sub-optimal. But function fine if you just want to get into the game without going through creating characters because the players didn't really have an opportunity to do so before the session. I do recommend that you check out the Community SubForum off of the Shadowrun forum for one of the character generators there. Making an SR4 character is roughly on par with making a Build Point SR3 character. They didn't make Chargen any easier.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| But not as much as they should have been; even putting the maximum into attributes you end up with about the same stats as the average security guard. The moral here is don't even try to be a generalist; without specializing in some area you're pretty hosed. Even trying to "dual-class" like you could in previous editions is very difficult, for instance if you try to combine mage with decker or sam with face. |
Once you realize, that you do not need 20+ dice in anything to be good at it, you will see, that it is actually no problem at all.
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| Welcome to the dark side. |
Quicker. Easier. More seductive.
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